Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    1,521

    Default Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Peace,

    I recently found an interesting article. How are Islam and Christianism related to Zoroastrianism? Certainly many muslim religious scholars did consider Zoroastrians to be People of the Book along with christians and jews, to name a famous one, Malik Ibn Anas (founder of one of the 4 orthodox islamic schools of thought, the Maliki school). They had their own Prophet, and Mazdeist Zoroastrianism is monotheistic in essence. In case some of you don't know, Zoroaster is also known as Zarathustra, more widely known term.

    Here is the article (beware of its lenght!):

    "Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest world religions. In fact, some have dated it as the world's oldest monotheism, although this supposition is by no means universally accepted. Accurately describing the age of this religion is very difficult, because there is some debate over when the prophet for who it is named, Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) actually lived. Speculation ranges from 6,000 to 600 B.C.E. What is known, however, is that for a period of approximately 1,000 years, Zoroastrianism was a very prominent religion, certainly the most powerful in the Middle East, perhaps the most powerful in the world. Over this period, which is generally held to have been from 549 B.C.E. to 642 C.E. (Zoroastrianism 574), it is known that Zoroastrianism communicated some of its traditional ideas to some of the adherents of Judaism (Flower 58). These were incorporated to some degree into the Jewish faith. However, because both Christianity and Islam were founded after Zoroastrianism, they were both influenced to a much greater degree, and tenets of faith that were originally found in Zoroastrianism were incorporated into Christianity and Islam on a very noticeable level. In fact, many aspects of Christianity and Islam that many people think typify these two religions have their roots in Zoroastrianism. The most notable of these aspects are the notions of dualism, judgement at death, heaven and hell, a savior born of a virgin, a final judgement, and resurrection. All of these concepts were originally taught in Zoroastrianism before Christianity and Islam existed (Zoroastrianism, 574). Therefore, it is evident that, by preceding Christianity and Islam, Zoroastrianism influenced both of these religions.
    Zoroastrianism was a major religion before Christianity and Islam were founded. Although this is known, the actual beginnings of the religion are hard to pinpoint. Until recently, most modern scholars accepted a date of around 600 B.C.E. as a good estimate, but recently new research placed him around 1200 B.C.E. The Parsis (Persians), Zoroastrians who emigrated to India, traditionally place Zarathustra around 6,000 B.C.E. However, this is an estimate that is not taken to be very accurate by modern theologians (Zoroaster 573). To complicate matters further, followers of Zoroastrianism hold that Zarathustra was only renewing the practice of a faith that had already been practiced by the Aryans of Iran thousands of years before his coming. This belief holds that in the time of King Jashmed, Ahura Mazda (the Zoroastrian god) revealed the basic tenets of what was to become the Zoroastrian faith (Traditional 5). In any event, however, it is certain that by the year 549 B.C.E., Zoroastrianism had become a major world religion. It was Cyrus the Great, first ruler of the Persian empire, who ordained Zoroastrianism as the official religion of his state. It was this same Cyrus that liberated the Jews from the occupation they had suffered under the Babylonians, and, when the Jews returned to Jerusalem, then called Judaea by the rulers of Palestine, they took back with them the elements of Zoroastrianism that can today be found in all three of the monotheistic religions that came out of Judaism: Judaism itself, Christianity, and Islam (Flower 58). Furthermore, Zoroastrianism remained a major world religion for over 1,000 years afterwards, and when it was finally replaced as the dominant religion of the Middle East, it was by Islam. During this time, Zoroastrianism was the official faith of three world empires, which meant that its influence continued to have a significant effect on the world around it (Zoroastrianism 574). It is important to note that both Christianity and Islam were conceived during this period, which meant that they were both highly susceptible to the influence of Zoroastrianism during the period of their development (Zoroastrianism 574). For these reasons, it is clear that Zoroastrianism was in part a direct precursor to both Christianity and Islam.

    Zoroastrianism clearly has had a large influence on Christianity. There are many aspects of Christianity that were not drawn from Judaism, although that religion was the major predecessor of Christianity. One of the most obvious tenets of Christianity that has its roots in Zoroastrianism is the concept of dualism. The Zoroastrian faith believes in two original spirits; Ahura Mazda, the Eternal and Uncreated, the Wise Lord, and Angra Mainyu, Uncreated but not Eternal, the Evil Spirit. This dualist nature is thought to have come from the fact the people of Zarathustra were invaded by nomads during the time of Zarathustra's life, and that he therefore had very strong sentiments on the nature of good and evil (Flower 56). From this basic concept springs many others, many of which are also found in Christianity. Zoroastrianism has a very clear notion of the concepts of heaven and hell. These were the realities that Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu had created for themselves. According to Zoroastrian belief, at the time of death, the dead are led over Chinvat Bridge. This is a bridge shaped like a sword that bridges this world and heaven. If the soul is worthy, then he or she is led across by a beautiful woman. If the soul is unworthy, then he or she is led across by an old hag, and when the soul is halfway across the bridge turns on its edge and the soul topples to hell (Flower 57). Zoroastrianism also teaches of a second judgement. Zoroastrian tradition holds that, after Zarathustra, there will come three more prophets born of a virgin, each of whom will become pregnant after bathing in a lake which preserves "the seed of the prophet" (Traditional 7). The last of these is to be the Saoshyant, or savior, who will bring about the final judgement. At this time, everyone will be resurrected (this is called Ristakhiz; Traditional 7) and judged a second time by Ahura Mazda, and the final battle between good and evil will take place. Some doctrines hold that the wicked will burn eternally in hell, but newer beliefs state that these may be purified in a river of molten metal and allowed to rejoin the new, idyllic Earth that is free of evil (Flower 56). All these are precursors to corresponding beliefs in Christianity. The notion of a savior being born of a virgin is obviously well known, as are the concepts of heaven and hell, judgement at death and also at a later day of Judgement, and the existence of evil. Evil as an independent force was an idea that had its roots in Zoroastrianism, and in particular the terrible events that Christianity holds will be unleashed by evil upon the world are thought to be taken almost directly from Zoroastrianism (Zoroastrianism, 575). In short, Christianity has been very visibly influenced by Zoroastrianism.

    Islam has also been profoundly influenced by Zoroastrianism. Indeed, Zarathustra himself is counted as one of Allah's prophets by some Muslims, although this is not universally accepted (Zoroastrian 146). In any case, Zoroastrian concepts and beliefs are evident in Islamic practice and faith. One of the major contributions Zoroastrianism made to both Christianity and Islam was the notion of dualism, which held that evil was an active force in the world. Nowhere is this more evident than in the Muslim concept of jihad, or struggle. The most common use of this word is not to mean `holy war', as it has become common to assume in the occidental world, but rather it refers to a daily practice of upholding the practices and beliefs of Islam (Jihad 4-6). A major aspect of this is the inner struggle against the evil within oneself (Jihad 7). This refers to another interpretation of the Zoroastrian concept of dualism: dualism in Zoroastrianism has been seen as both a cosmic dualism, which refers to a universal conflict between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, and it has also been seen as a kind of spiritual dualism, which refers to the internal conflict in the nature of man, which is epitomized by the conflict between Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu, who is the most powerful of the creations of Ahura Mazda (Flower 60). It is not clear which of these Zoroaster taught, but it certainly appears that the Islamic concept of jihad in its personal form reflects a concept of spiritual dualism, which of course had its roots in this concept of a struggle between good and evil which Zoroastrianism spread to Christianity and Islam (Zoroastrianism 575). Also significant is the fact that Islam differs remarkably from Judaism and, to a lesser extent, Christianity in matters dealing with conflict. Whereas Judaism as a religion has borne persecution and hardship at the hands of outside oppressors without, for the most part, fighting back, Islam holds that fighting in defense of one's country, community and faith is permissible (Jihad 9). This belief also most likely has its origins in Zoroastrianism, as in Zoroastrianism it is held that one must constantly fight against evil to further the cause of good. Zoroastrian belief holds that the world was created by Ahura Mazda, and that all the people on Earth are spirits who volunteered to assume the form of human beings to aid Mazda in his fight against Angra Mainyu. Thus, in Zoroastrianism the notion of actively battling evil is quite acceptable (Flower 56). Another similarity that Zoroastrianism holds in common with Islam is the need for ritual cleanliness (Flower 60). In Islam, the performance of ritual ablutions of all exposed skin with water or sand is necessary to purify the body so as not to defile the holy space that Muslims pray in (IslamiCity 1). Similarly, in Zoroastrianism it is important to maintain ritual cleanliness, which refers to spiritual as much as physical cleanliness (Flower 61). For example, only certain specific members of the Zoroastrian community are allowed to come into contact with a dead body (Traditional 4). This practice is not observed in Judaism or Christianity, and it is very likely that Islam adopted this practice from Zoroastrianism (Flower 61). These similarities show that Islam has been deeply influenced by Zoroastrianism.

    From this it may be seen that Zoroastrianism provided an influence on Christianity and Islam that, in all likelihood, was second only to Judaism, the religion from which these two grew. On the one hand, it is certain that the ties between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are very deep, as they are all descended from the prophet Abraham. On the other hand, elements exist in Christianity and Islam that were first seen in Zoroastrianism, and had no foundation in Judaism. Indeed, some of these elements are visible even in Judaism, a holdover from the time when Zoroastrianism was just becoming a major world religion and these ideas were communicated by world leaders to Jews who existed under their rule at one time or another (Flower 58). These elements comprise some of the most integral elements of these religions; indeed, some of them form in part the core component of the religion which is generally known, if sometimes misrepresented, by people of any given cultural background. Elements such as the dualism of good and evil have become the basis for a significant portion of the culture of the west. Elements that were first conceived in Zoroastrianism have, through the spread of Christianity into occidental culture, and by the spread of occidental culture across the globe, have been spread to effectively every part of the world. Zoroastrianism today is a religion with a very small number of adherents, spread across the Middle East and India; this alone could never have accounted for the ideas that can be found in all manner of Western culture, from pop culture to classical themes. Islam, also, has continued to flourish as a world religion, and is now widely practiced in many parts of the globe, including growing numbers in North America. In conclusion, there can be no doubt that Zoroastrianism has had a very profound influence on Islam and Christianity.

    Works Researched

    ArabNet - Palestine, History, Babylonian Captivity. Available: http://www.arab.net/Palestine/histor...abylonian.html Accessed April 3rd, 2000

    Flower, Liz. The Elements of World Religions Rockport: Element Books 1997

    [Islam]iCity. Prayers - Salat - Ablution. Available: http://Islam.org/Mosque/salat/salat6.htm Accessed April 3rd, 2000

    Jihad Explained Available: http://www.iiie.net/New_IIIE/Brochure-18.htm Accessed April 3rd, 2000

    Oxtoby, Willard G. The Zoroastrian Tradition. In W. Oxtoby (Ed.) World religions: Western Traditions Don Mills: Oxford University Press 1996

    Traditional Zoroastrianism: Tenets of the Religion. Available: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zarathus/tenets33.html Accessed March 23rd, 2000

    Zoroaster. In Hinnelis, John R. (Ed.) Penguin Dictionary of World religions, 2nd Edition London, England: Penguin Books 1997

    Zoroastrianism. In Hinnelis, John R. (Ed.) Penguin Dictionary of World Religions, 2nd Edition London, England: Penguin Books 1997"

    Source:

    - http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=783084

    A muslim view about the article is written down below the main article, in case you're interested too.

    Now, what do you think about this? Please keep the debate civil.
    Last edited by Sadreddine; March 29, 2007 at 03:35 AM.
    Struggling by the Pen since February 2007.

    َاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

  2. #2
    Dunecat's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The United States of America
    Posts
    6,438

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    I am about to leave on a trip, but I can right a little something before I go.

    The Judaic religions all have factors that they drew from their environment. It's to be expected. Christianity was not grown in a test tube- it was grown under the refrigerator of the kitchen floor. However, just because one might understand the context of these religions by no means detracts from them or gives more credence to outside factors (in this case, Zoroastrianism). In minor ways these two separate theological lineages are similar, but they are not of the same branch. There are some major differences between God (Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai) and Ahura Mazda, and their relationship with creation.

    There's also an issue of which changed first, at what speed, and- upon closer examination and scrutiny- are they really that similar. It's not like we even have a Zoroastrianism gospel or canon.

    I'm reading a book on ancient religious history called "History of God". It's somewhat biased, as the author takes every chance to jab at the religions, but I have learned a great deal in only the first few chapters.
    Last edited by Dunecat; March 29, 2007 at 08:16 AM. Reason: I R teh ReT4rDeHd

  3. #3
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Minnesota, US
    Posts
    16,270

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Interesting read. I can see how the Zoroastrian message of good vs evil (personified as Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu) heavily influenced Christianity (ie, God and Satan)
    Last edited by Last Roman; March 29, 2007 at 09:45 AM.
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
    Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company
    -Mark Twain

  4. #4

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    zoraostrianism in some respects is more closely related to christianity then judaism is. zoraostrians believe in the conflict between good and evil,heaven and hell,the godliness of some men,ect.

  5. #5
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,850

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    That was a good read. It is also interesting to note the Buddhist influences on the teachings of Jesus (there was a large Buddhist presence in the middle east at the time).

    In fact, many of his sayings might as well have been ripped out of the Dahmmapada itself. Not to mention the fact that many early christians believed in reincarnation (a common but not neccesary belief in Buddhism.)

    I just love finding the roots of these religions.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    That was a good read. It is also interesting to note the Buddhist influences on the teachings of Jesus (there was a large Buddhist presence in the middle east at the time).
    Do you have any reference which I could look at about this?


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil — in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  7. #7

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Not to mention the fact that many early christians believed in reincarnation (a common but not neccesary belief in Buddhism.)
    im jewish and my religion teaches reincarnation. many ideas were probably taken from buddhists but reincarnation was the same for jews and early christians.buddhist reincarnation is very different then what most westerners view as reincarnation. what buddhists believe is quit fascinating. if you have time you should read up on it.

  8. #8
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,850

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    I actually am a Buddhist, so I have read up on it a little...

    Oh and by the way, as I said in my earlier post, it is not a standard belief, it is not dictated in any of the writings and is not required.

    Actually I have also read up on writings of early christian reincarnation beliefs and the transmigration of souls which mirrors the Hindu/Buddhist view.

    I would be interested in seeing what you think because it sounds as though you either do not understand eastern thought, or have not undersood CHRISTIAN (not jewish) early texts.

    I couldn't find a definite source as mine is a book, you may be able to goodle early christian reincarnation though.

    The early christian view is definitely not identicle to the Jewish "reincarnation" which is not really a proper name for it but oh well.
    Last edited by Irishman; March 29, 2007 at 06:40 PM.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    It is also interesting to note the Buddhist influences on the teachings of Jesus
    Er, such as?

    (there was a large Buddhist presence in the middle east at the time).
    Really? Evidence please. There were possibly a few Buddhist travellers and traders that far west, but "large presence"? I don't think so.

    Actually I have also read up on writings of early christian reincarnation beliefs and the transmigration of souls which mirrors the Hindu/Buddhist view.


    I couldn't find a definite source as mine is a book, you may be able to goodle early christian reincarnation though.
    I've read plenty of websites etc which claim there is this "evidence" of Buddhist influence on early Christianity and Jewish and early Christian "reincarnation". They are almost all pretty clumsy and poorly researched efforts that take some bits of the gospels out of their historical and cultural context and then misinterpret them as being "like" Buddhism.

    Take this example from one of those Jesus and Reincarnation sites:

    "For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)

    "And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?' But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.' Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:10-13)

    Here again is a clear statement of preexistence. Despite the edict of the Emperor Justinian and the counter reaction to Origen, there is firm and explicit testimony for preexistence in both the Old and the New Testament.

    (Christian Reincarnation)

    This is nothing more than firm and explicit evidence that the guiy who wrote this website doesn't have a clue about Intertestamental Judaism. Why all this talk about the prophet Elijah coming again? Is this, as is claimed, an indication that Jews in Jesus' time believed Elijah was going to be re-incarnated?

    No.

    To be reincarnated you have to die first, and Jewish tradition in Jesus' time said that Elijah had never died, but had been taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot. It was believed that when the Messiah was due to arrive/reveal himself, Elijah would return from heaven to proclaim him.

    So these passages and the others on that site are not evidence of any Jewish belief in "reincarnation". They are evidence of a Jewish belief in the earthly return of a guy who never died in the first place.

    The other "evidence" of this supposed belief in reincarnation is based on similar misunderstandings or plain ignorance.

  10. #10
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    1,521

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Thus, can prophets be considered enlightened individuals who have guided humanity from the beginning, in a way or the other, with peculiarities for each time, people, culture and context, but a message that is similar in essence and has been transmitted from one religion to another? Those prophets would have had the insight their contemporaries lacked, enough for them to change the human world across the millenia.

    That would mean that a chain of prophets have existed, spread amongst all peoples and cultures, and the ideas they spread have been in constant correlation or causation.

    It doesn't matter if you call it a Revelation/Inspiration, Awakening or Enlightening. Those men have shaped the world in which we live in. Some will say for worse. I say for better.
    Struggling by the Pen since February 2007.

    َاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

  11. #11

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    That would mean that a chain of prophets have existed, spread amongst all peoples and cultures, and the ideas they spread have been in constant correlation or causation.

    It doesn't matter if you call it a Revelation/Inspiration, Awakening or Enlightening. Those men have shaped the world in which we live in. Some will say for worse. I say for better.
    From "Thus Spake Zarathustra", NIETZSCHE:
    Persians were the first to take a broad and comprehensive view of
    history. Every series of evolutions, according to them, was presided over
    by a prophet; and every prophet had his 'Hazar,'--his dynasty of a thousand
    years

  12. #12

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    The other "evidence" of this supposed belief in reincarnation is based on similar misunderstandings or plain ignorance.
    probably true.

  13. #13
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,850

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    I've read plenty of websites etc which claim there is this "evidence" of Buddhist influence on early Christianity and Jewish and early Christian "reincarnation". They are almost all pretty clumsy and poorly researched efforts that take some bits of the gospels out of their historical and cultural context and then misinterpret them as being "like" Buddhism.

    Take this example from one of those Jesus and Reincarnation sites:

    "For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)

    "And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?' But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.' Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:10-13)
    First off, I never said that Judaism believed in reincarnation (that was an earlier post of some one else and I was not sure to whom you were arguing).

    I would recomment checking out your nearest bookstore, not, as you stated, flimsy websites. Just because the few websites which you have read did not hold up to critical examination, does not mean you cannot find them. Do some research and read a book, you will find that there were buddhist sects in the middle east and as far as greece (when I said large, I meant more than just a few migrant famlilies.)

    I also feel that you should look at other sources than the bible. When I said that many early christians believed in reincarnation but you must remember that the current bible was not yet assembled.

    I would recommend reading up on origen, who most certainly did teach reincarnation and the transmigration of souls, here is a CITED QUOTE:

    Origen, Against Celsus, I.32, as cited in Head and Cranston, 147.
    Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions? It is probable, therefore, that this soul also, which conferred more benefit by its [former] residence in the flesh than that of many men (to avoid prejudice, I do not say "all"), stood in need of a body not only superior to others, but invested with all excellent qualities.
    From Against Celsus:
    The soul has neither beginning nor end. [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives.
    As I said before, I think that you are limiting your scope to the bible and should open up to the other gospels and teachings. No one will disagree that an early church leader taught a form of reincarnation.

    If you are really interested in this, it is interesting to get your hands on a dharmapada and compare it to the teachings of Christ.

    Again, I am not saying that these are proof of a Buddhist influence on Christianity, but it is certainly interesting to note the similarities. What you must understand is that I am not trying to prove this; I am simply offering evidence to suggest that it is possible.

    Really, read the dharmapada and examine the similarities to Jesus' teachings, and make you mind for yourself. The fact is though, they are very similar and these views of nonviolence and selflessness are not found in other (western) religions of the time.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  14. #14
    Pnutmaster's Avatar Dominus Qualitatium
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,572

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    For a fine book on the origins of the Abrahamic religions, I recommend A History of God by Karen Armstrong (unfortunately, with school, I haven't been able to finish it :/)
    Under the patronage and bound to the service of the
    artist formerly known as Squeakus Maximus
    Stoic Pantheist of S.I.N

  15. #15
    Dunecat's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The United States of America
    Posts
    6,438

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Pnutmaster View Post
    For a fine book on the origins of the Abrahamic religions, I recommend A History of God by Karen Armstrong (unfortunately, with school, I haven't been able to finish it :/)
    I, also, am reading this book.

    It's really good. As in, really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by pranicmegan View Post
    See its all the same ***** ~ just different names!!

    LMAO!!

    A myth is a myth is a myth no matter how many people believe it.

  16. #16
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mining Country, Outback Australia.
    Posts
    19,332

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Xianity also has strong similarities with Mithraism and Osiris/Set in the Egyptian tradition. Of course all religions are inspired by what already exists or remnants of what has previously existed.

    I have even heard a theory that the Torah prior to the exodus from Egypt involves a polytheistic view of God as when a different name for the Lord is invoked in various chapters, God seems to show different distinct personalities. After the exodus and slavery in Egypt, (and theoretically after exposure to the theories of Pharoah Akhenaton/amon who had insisted Egypt become monotheistic sun-worshippers), the Torah suddenly gains a more coherent view of God as a single entity.

    Also, I am sure the OT exposes the fact that JHWH was not the only God. When Ba'al and Molech are mentioned they are never shrugged off as non-existant, the focus is more correctly on the God of the Chosen People being more powerful than the Ba'als, Molechs, Dagons and Astartes.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    When Ba'al and Molech are mentioned they are never shrugged off as non-existant, the focus is more correctly on the God of the Chosen People being more powerful than the Ba'als, Molechs, Dagons and Astartes.
    no they are only considered idols that are fake gods. this really makes me believe judaism is a polytheistic religion.

    the first and last parts of ur posts were confusing as ur point seems bad. but i understand the middle part and i have heard stuff on the remnants of ankenatans followers joing up with the jews. i had heard that there was a scripture that said that the egyptian monotheistists joing the sons of abraham.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    At the time of the life or recorded appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, and for some centuries before, the Mediterranean and neighboring world had been the scene of a vast number of pagan creeds and rituals. There were Temples without end dedicated to gods like Apollo or Dionysus among the Greeks, Hercules among the Romans, Mithra among the Persians, Adonis and Attis in Syria and Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus in Egypt, Baal and Astarte among the Babylonians and Carthaginians, and so forth...And an extraordinarily interesting fact, for us, is that notwithstanding great geographical distances and racial differences between the adherents of these various cults, as well as differences in the details of their services, the general outlines of their creeds and ceremonials were - if not identical - so markedly similar as we find them...I may say roughly that of all or nearly all the deities above-mentioned it was said and believed that:


    They were born on or very near our Christmas Day
    They were born of a Virgin-Mother
    And in a Cave or Underground Chamber
    They led a life of toil for Mankind
    And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer
    They were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness
    And descended into Hell or the Underworld
    They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world
    They founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism
    And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals

    - Edward Carpenter (Solar Myths and Christian Festivals)


    ...the Canon of the New Testament, is nothing more or less than a copy of the mythological histories of the Hindoo Savior Krishna, and the Buddhist savior Buddha, with a mixture of mythology borrowed from the Persians and other nations - T. W. Doane (Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions)

    There is no doubt that we have before us in the Vedic Agni Cult the original source of all the stories of the birth of the Fire-Gods and Sun-Gods. These gods usually enter life in darkness and confinement. Thus the Cretan Zeus was born in a cavern, Mithras, Dionysus and Hermes in a gloomy grotto, Horus in the “stable” of the holy cow - Jesus too was born at dead of night in a lowly “stable” at Bethlehem - Arthur Dewes (The Christ Myth)


    Just outside Rome there was an underground temple of the Persian God Mithra...Well, at midnight, the first minute of December the 25th, you would have seen that temple all lit up with candles, and priests in white garments at the altar, and boys burning incense, exactly as you will see in a Roman Catholic church at midnight on December 24th in our time. And the worshippers of Mithra would have told you that Mithra was a good God who had come from heaven to be born as a man and redeem men from their sins; and he was born in a dark cave or stable on December 25th - John G. Jackson (Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth)

    Mithra, a Persian sun-god, was virgin born, in a cave, on December 25th. His earliest worshippers were shepherds, and he was accompanied by 12 companions. The Mithraists kept the Sabbath holy day and celebrated the Eucharist by eating wafers embellished with a cross - John G. Jackson (Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth)
    "My message is simple - that I have found the god within me. My whole effort is to persuade you - look within, the master cometh. Yes, it is possible. Yes, he comes. And he does not come from the outside; he explodes from the inside."

  19. #19

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by pranicmegan View Post
    Mithra, a Persian sun-god, was virgin born, in a cave, on December 25th. His earliest worshippers were shepherds, and he was accompanied by 12 companions. The Mithraists kept the Sabbath holy day and celebrated the Eucharist by eating wafers embellished with a cross - John G. Jackson (Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth)
    Oh dear - not this "Jesus Myth"/parallels crap again!

    Really? So find me the myth where Mithra is "born in a cave". Find me the bit where shepherds are his "earliest worshipers". Where is the bit where any "twelve companions" of his are mentioned.

    Don't just cut and paste some crappy web-sites recycling some long-debunked amateur Nineteenth Century junk-scholarship. Try actually checking those grand claims and see how much you can actually verify.

    You may find yourself rather disappointed.

  20. #20
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kuala Lumpur
    Posts
    13,018

    Default Re: Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    Oh dear - not this "Jesus Myth"/parallels crap again!

    Really? So find me the myth where Mithra is "born in a cave". Find me the bit where shepherds are his "earliest worshipers". Where is the bit where any "twelve companions" of his are mentioned.

    Don't just cut and paste some crappy web-sites recycling some long-debunked amateur Nineteenth Century junk-scholarship. Try actually checking those grand claims and see how much you can actually verify.

    You may find yourself rather disappointed.
    Well, beliefs (or make believe) doesn't really have to be written, for example the Trinity in Christian. It wasn't written anywhere in the bible, either the Psalms, Old or New testaments (though surprisingly it was mention in the Qur'an)...


    CIVITATVS CVM AVGVSTVS XVI, MMVI
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites SVB MareNostrum SVB Quintus Maximus
    Want to know more about Rome II Total Realism ? Follow us on Twitter & Facebook

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •