The God Who Wasn't There

[jankren]

Anyone has ever seen the movie 'The God Who Wasn't There'? I wonder is there any truth in it? I think the subject of Jesus's existence is very controversial for anyone who believes that he was indeed a real figure.

Anyway, for those who have not seen it you can download the movie for free by joining the parts of the movie from the following links:

EDIT: links removed. We can't allow links to a movie download if the legality is questionable.

Peace,

[vizi]

Is the movie distributed for free by the producers?

Otherwise it isn't God you should be worrying about. It is Interpol.

[Il Duce]

Well, throughout history, including "Jesus'" time, there were many people who claimed to be messiah. So I'm sure that somebody back then named Jesus or Josiah or w/e the hell is name was thought he was the son of God... Just my opinion

[Sétanta]

I think the subject of Jesus's existence is very controversial for anyone who believes that he was indeed a real figure.

Anybody with a square inch of credibility or half a brain knows he was a real figure, just his exploits are in doubt.

[pranicmegan]

Anybody with a square inch of credibility or half a brain knows he was a real figure, just his exploits are in doubt.

Oh really ?? I LoL'd when I read that. Ya think?


…if the Jesus of the Gospels lived, suffered and died during the period of Roman rule over Palestine, it is curious that his name does not appear in the writings of three distinguished contemporary authors - Philo Judaeus, Justus of Tiberius and Flavius Josephus - Ahmed Osman


There are many errors in the Bible. The learned know it; and the unlearned better not know it - William Penn


The traditional history of Christianity is hopelessly inadequate to the facts...The gospel story of Jesus is not the biography of an historical Messiah. It is a Jewish reworking of ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting Godman Osiris-Dionysus, which had been popular for centuries throughout the ancient Mediterranean - Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy (The Original Jesus)


Greek translators of the Old Testament did not...use the name Joshua, but Jesus. Thus their account of the conquest of the Promised Land appears in the Book of Jesus. Many early Church Fathers of the second and third centuries AD, too, identified Joshua as Jesus, including Justin Martyr, Irenaeus (Bishop of Leon), Tertullian, Eusebius (Bishop of Caesarea and "the father of Church history), and Origen, the most brilliant theologian of his time - Ahmed Osman

The term Chrestos (Christ) was familiar and precious to both heathen and Hebrew devotees centuries before the alleged nativity at Bethlehem - Revelations of the Anti-Christ


The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun - Thomas Paine


Every detail of the Sun myth is worked into the record of the Galilean teacher - Richard A. Proctor (Astronomer)



Justus of Tiberias, a native of Galilee, wrote a history covering the period in which Jesus is said to have lived, but does not in any instance call the name of the Christ - John G. Jackson (Pagan Origins of the Jesus Myth)


It has always been an unfailing source of astonishment to the historical investigator of Christian beginnings, that there is not one single word from the pen of any Pagan writer of the first century of our era, which can in any fashion be referred to the marvelous story recounted by the Gospel writers. The very existence of Jesus seems unknown - G. R. S. Meade (Did Jesus Live 100 BC?)


So for sure if you want to believe Jesus, or Jesu, was a 'real person' you go right ahead.

[DariusEG]

Like Setanta said. It's fact he was real. It's the question of his divinity.

[Zenith Darksea]

When you think about it, we have a lot less evidence for the existence of men like Leonidas, Themistocles, Pisistratus or Seleucus than we have for Christ's, yet nobody questions their reality.

[Garnier]

When you think about it, we have a lot less evidence for the existence of men like Leonidas, Themistocles, Pisistratus or Seleucus than we have for Christ's, yet nobody questions their reality.

Thats because you feel better or safer if you deny the existence of anything supernatural... supposedly.

I'm not going to download a movie for free, but could someone post the general message that the movie gives?

[Skyler]

Thats because you feel better or safer if you deny the existence of anything supernatural... supposedly.

I'm not going to download a movie for free, but could someone post the general message that the movie gives?

But how do you know if Jesus was supernatural?

[Zenith Darksea]

But how do you know if Jesus was supernatural?

That, friend, is the million dollar question. First of all it's a good idea to go away and consider the philosophical question of whether there is indeed such a thing as the 'supernatural'. If you say 'no', then there's no point considering whether or not Christ was God. An atheist will always try to find some way to explain the supernatural in natural terms, and basically will say anything as long as they don't concede the existence of the supernatural.

If you decide that the supernatural does exist however, then you become free to consider Christ's divinity properly. Now of course there is what you might call the 'testimonial' evidence - the fact that His immediate followers were prepared to die simply for confessing His divinity, and would do even until this present day. There is the miraculous evidence - very many miracles have been performed by Christian saints both in the ancient world and in the modern day (some of more dubious veracity than others, it has to be said). The very nature of the miracle clearly points to the supernatural, otherwise it would not be a miracle. There is also the prophetic evidence - Christ as portrayed in our sources fits divine Jewish prophecy (from quite a long time before) very well indeed (perfectly, in fact). This Jewish prophecy has been proven correct in more secular matters as well (such as the destruction of the city of Tyre and the fact that it would be used as a base for fishermen and never properly inhabited again). Finally of course there is the experiential aspect of believing in Christ. As soon as you open your mind to the possibility that Christ was God, then God will give you belief, if you choose to accept it.

[rez]

For those of us who haven't even heard of the movie could a short summary be provided?

At a guess it seems the movie questions the existence of a man called Jesus all together. A quick read of Josephus could pretty much end that misconception fairly quickly.

[jankren]

For those of us who haven't even heard of the movie could a short summary be provided?

At a guess it seems the movie questions the existence of a man called Jesus all together. A quick read of Josephus could pretty much end that misconception fairly quickly.

But isn't the ony surviving manuscript of the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus written in Greek instead of Aramaic? So I dont think its originality is assured.

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

Yeah I saw "The God Who Wasn't There". It was pretty much crap. They focused mainly on some little twerp's (Narrator) perceived ills of feeling betrayed and intimidated by the Christian church instead of the evidence. Granted they had a few nuggets of evidence here and there, but I was disappointed because I thought it was going to get into the archeology and history etc. Instead I had to endure the Narrator's rant against the church and his atheism.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Yeah I saw "The God Who Wasn't There". It was pretty much crap. They focused mainly on some little twerp's (Narrator) perceived ills of feeling betrayed and intimidated by the Christian church instead of the evidence. Granted they had a few nuggets of evidence here and there, but I was disappointed because I thought it was going to get into the archeology and history etc. Instead I had to endure the Narrator's rant against the church and his atheism.

Flemming is a classic case of someone who went from one form of extreme fundamentalism to another (and who gives we atheists a bad name in the process). Essentially he used to be a fundamentalist Christian who, on discovering that this was not intellectually sustainable without some serious philosophical acrobatics, went to the other extreme and embraced the idea that not only was Jesus not who Christianity says he was (a reasonable position from a historian’s point of view) but he actually never existed at all (an unreasonable position from a historian’s point of view).

Flemming has the problem of explaining why, if Jesus never existed, no professional historians believe this. After all, plenty of these historians are Jews, atheists and agnostics, so the fact that none of them believe the “Jesus Myth” idea can’t be explained away via pure religious prejudice. The best Flemming can come up with are two amateur historians, Richard Carrier and Earl Doherty.

The reason no professional historians accept that Jesus never existed is that there are some gaping flaws in the “Jesus Myth” idea.

Flemming starts by claiming that Jesus is actually an amalgam of earlier pagan myths and details the usual “parallels” which “prove” this. Except – as usual with “Jesus Mythers” – he accepts these supposed “parallels” at face value and doesn’t check the sources in question. If he’d done that he would have found many of them aren’t “parallels” at all (eg Krishna being a cow herd as a youth is not a parallel with Jesus’ symbolic/figurative assertion that he is “the good shepherd” no matter how you try to make it so). Or he would have found that these parallels don’t actually exist at all (eg the Last Supper, Crucifixion and Resurrection of Mithras, which exists only in the vivid imagination of Jesus Mythers but nowhere in our sources).

These claims about the “pagan origins” of Jesus also don’t explain the essentially and fundamentally Jewish nature of early Christianity and never manages to explain what devout Jews were doing making up an imaginary Messiah out of pagan gods and then happily dying for this piece of fiction.

Flemming then repeats the standard Jesus Myther claim that Paul never writes about a living, human Jesus and that his Jesus was a spiritual abstraction. This just shows that Flemming the ex-fundie should have read his Bible more carefully. Here is a list of things Paul says about the living, human Jesus:

• Jesus was born in human fashion, as a Jew, and had a ministry to the Jews. (Galatians 4:4)
• Jesus was referred to as "Son of God". (1 Cor. 1:9)
• Jesus was a direct descendent of King David. (Romans 1:3)
• Jesus prayed to God using the term "abba". (Galatians 4:6)
• Jesus expressly forbade divorce. (1 Cor. 7:10)
• Jesus taught that "preachers" should be paid for their preaching. (1 Cor. 9:14)
• Jesus taught about the end-time. (1 Thess. 4:15)
• Paul refers to Peter by the name Cephas (rock), which was the name Jesus gave to him. (1 Cor. 3:22)
• Jesus had a brother named James. (Galatians 1:19)
• Jesus initiated the Lord's supper and referred to the bread and the cup. (1 Cor. 11:23-25)
• Jesus was betrayed on the night of the Lord's Supper. (1 Cor. 11:23-25)
• Jesus' death was related to the Passover Celebration. (1 Cor. 5:7)
• The death of Jesus was at the hands of earthly rulers. (1 Cor. 2:8)
• Jesus underwent abuse and humiliation. (Romans 15:3)
• Jewish authorities were involved with Jesus' death. (1 Thess. 2:14-16)
• Jesus died by crucifixion. (2 Cor. 13:4 et al)
• Jesus was physically buried. (1 Cor. 15:4)

Paul not only said Jesus had a brother named James (and this is supported by Josephus), but he also says that he’d met this brother. It’s a bit hard to meet the flesh and blood brother of a fictional abstraction.

Then there are all the other problems with the “Jesus Myth” idea: - (i) the mentions of Jesus, twice, in Josephus and (ii) the strange details in the Jesus story which make sense if he was a real man (eg him being from Nazareth) but makes no sense if he never existed (why make up a fake Messiah from Nazareth when Messiahs were supposed to be from Bethlehem?)

All in all it’s not a very convincing case at all.

[Tom Paine]

Tacitus mentions him in relation to the "dangerous cult" that Nero accuses of burning Rome, too...

[Zenith Darksea]

But isn't the ony surviving manuscript of the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus written in Greek instead of Aramaic? So I dont think its originality is assured.

Not at all. In fact, you'll also find that the New Testament was written in Greek. After Alexander the Great's conquest of the Persian Empire, Greek was roughly speaking the lingua franca of the Middle East and also the foremost intellectual language of the Eastern Mediterranean. For a historian from Hellenistic Palestine to write in Greek is not surprising in the slightest.

Tacitus mentions him in relation to the "dangerous cult" that Nero accuses of burning Rome, too...

Pliny the Younger also mentions a Christian Divine Liturgy in one of his letters from the province of Bithynia (where he was governor) to the Emperor Trajan, and in that he makes mention of a man called 'Christus'.

[TheKwas]

Jesus was born in human fashion, as a Jew, and had a ministry to the Jews. (Galatians 4:4)
[/b]• Jesus was referred to as "Son of God". (1 Cor. 1:9)
• Jesus was a direct descendent of King David. (Romans 1:3)
• Jesus prayed to God using the term "abba". (Galatians 4:6)
• Jesus expressly forbade divorce. (1 Cor. 7:10)
• Jesus taught that "preachers" should be paid for their preaching. (1 Cor. 9:14)
• Jesus taught about the end-time. (1 Thess. 4:15)
• Paul refers to Peter by the name Cephas (rock), which was the name Jesus gave to him. (1 Cor. 3:22)
• Jesus had a brother named James. (Galatians 1:19)
• Jesus initiated the Lord's supper and referred to the bread and the cup. (1 Cor. 11:23-25)
• Jesus was betrayed on the night of the Lord's Supper. (1 Cor. 11:23-25)
• Jesus' death was related to the Passover Celebration. (1 Cor. 5:7)
• The death of Jesus was at the hands of earthly rulers. (1 Cor. 2:8)
• Jesus underwent abuse and humiliation. (Romans 15:3)
• Jewish authorities were involved with Jesus' death. (1 Thess. 2:14-16)
• Jesus died by crucifixion. (2 Cor. 13:4 et al)
• Jesus was physically buried. (1 Cor. 15:4) [b]

To be fair, I believe that Flemmings says that Paul never writes about a Jesus outside his last few days (passover+ I think?), so the bolded parts don't really contradict anything Flemming says.

That said, this movie is a pretty big joke. As flimsy as the 'mythical' arguments are, this film actually manages to recreate that argument even more flimsy.

It makes me sad that this atheist film is the one getting all the media. As silly, simplistic and blunt as Dawkin's The Root of All Evil? can get, I would suggest it over this film anyday.

[boofhead]

Well, Muhammad mustn't have been a real person either, just a made up dude with a made up message?

The vast majority of historians will vouch for his existence. Even the Jewish scholars, who have an enormous amount of history, know that he existed.

Any other suggestion is just crack-pot anti-Christanism. One might as well say that Hammurabi or Julius Caesar didn't exist.

[jankren]

Well, Muhammad mustn't have been a real person either, just a made up dude with a made up message?

Dude, we are only discussing about a movie called 'The God Who Wasn't There'. No need to feel offended. Besides, I for one cannot say for sure that Muhammad MUST BE a real person either since I wasn't there to see him spreading his message. In fact Im open to any suggestion regarding his existence.

Anyhow, the existence of Jesus does not only concern Christians but also the majority of Muslims because they too believe in him.

Peace,

[dannyboy]

Anyone has ever seen the movie 'The God Who Wasn't There'? I wonder is there any truth in it? I think the subject of Jesus's existence is very controversial for anyone who believes that he was indeed a real figure.

Anyway, for those who have not seen it you can download the movie for free by joining the parts of the movie from the following links:

EDIT: links removed. We can't allow links to a movie download if the legality is questionable.

Peace,

One things for sure. Either Jesus didn't exist, or if He did, we found His tomb.

Welcome to the world of contridictions and varying "proofs".

Jesus lived, and He continues to live, now and forever, interceding on the behalf of sinful men and women whom He loved, for whom He died.