Can I edit files to tone down family bodyguards?

[Morte]

I'm thinking of modifying my install to tone down the family members' bodyguard units, which are generally 2 hitpoint heavy cavalry that cost almost nothing to maintain and regenerate losses for free. I find that if I use them fully (i.e deploy all the non-bureaucrat family members as cavalry) they skew the game. "Infantry-centric" armies like Gaul or Rome just aren't infantry-centric with multiple family cavalry units in the field army. Also, eastern cataphract generals roll over everything (including pike phalanxes) then regenerate.

I'm not sure what's the best way to do thus, or what's technically feasible. I figure I'd should to drop them to 1 hitpoint, reduce the unit size, or both. That way using them as cavalry would be less effective and more risky, i.e. a real decision rather than a no-brainer.

Has anybody tried this before? How did it work out for you in practice? What do you think is the best way to do it?

Could some kind person tell me what files to edit, and how? I'm on RTRPE 1.8 with the extended realism mod and mod switch etc.

Thanks for any help or comments...

[Ramiro]

My Guess? Hardcoded also, like so many other unhistorical and unlogical things the game has. I have no words to thank the modding community for the excelent job they are doing, but that stupid tactical AI, and other harcoded "bugs" take their toll on game playability.

By the way... Godd luck with that. I really hope you succeed.

PD: I ALWAYS won battles with the general bodyguards, no matter wich army I use. Is always the same, pin the enmy center with infantry just enough time to take the enemy general with my own and then came back to crush the remainin infantry. Elephants do pretty much the same but the are way to expensive (they are only worthy to create when you have no general with big bodyguard). I am just bored... I even tried playing with germans, gauls and is even worst because you can not rely on infantry for holding for too long and the game system forces you to rely even more on your "jedi knights", the general bodyguard.

[iamphet]

I suspect you will greatly increase death-rate of AI generals this way.

[Morte]

I suspect you will greatly increase death-rate of AI generals this way.

I don't think I'd mind that. Actually, I think I'd prefer it.

I never put my own generals on AI if I can possibly help it, so that's not much of an issue.

Enemy generals mostly seem to die because I make a specific attempt to kill them -- I lure them onto spears, or mob them once they're engaged, or catch them with the fast light cavalry as they rout. If this happened a bit quicker, that'd be fine with me. And it's not like there's a shortage of family members in the game, or it's slow to replace them (with promoted garrison commanders etc) when they die.

Of course, the proof is in the play testing. If I can make the changes to the game, I'll try them out and see what happens.

{edit} I posted simultaneously with Salvor Hardin. Thanks Salvor, I'll try it out in various ways and see how I like it in practice.

[Salvor Hardin]

As Iamphet says, you will get massive deaths on the AI family members, so I would recommend you to change only the general unit of the faction you intend to play, keeping a copy of the original file in another folder (or with another name). The file to change is export_descr_unit.txt, located in the data folder, inside your RTW directory.

The first section is that of the generals, so you are lucky not to have to look for them all around the file. Here is a typical entry for a general unit:

type east generals cavalry
dictionary rtr_east_generals_cavalry
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier east_heavy_cataphract, 7, 0, 7.4
mount horse cataphract
mount_effect horse +1, camel -1, chariot -4, elephant -40
attributes sea_faring,hide_forest,general_unit,hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4,square
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 7, 14, arrow, 130, 30, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25 , 1
stat_pri_attr prec,thrown
stat_sec 20, 22, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 , 0.8
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 22, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -6, 0, -6, 1
stat_mental 15, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 660, 0, 91, 154, 660
ownership armenia

The lines and values I would suggest you to change are:

stat_health 2, 0 <- the "2" is the number of hit points of the unit

stat_pri 7, 14, arrow, 130, 30, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25 , 1
stat_pri_attr prec,thrown
stat_sec 20, 22, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 , 0.8

These are the attack values of the unit. As this unit has a bow and a spear, it has primary and secondary weapons, so you can tone down both of them or just one. Or neither. The most important values are the first and second (i.e. the attack factor). Here is how it works:

; stat_pri From left to right
; attack factor
; attack bonus factor if charging
; missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
; range of missile
; amount of missile ammunition per man
; Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
; Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)

And finally, you might also want to change the defence stats of the units:

stat_pri_armour 22, 0, 0, metal

; stat_pri_armour Details of the man's defences
; armour factor
; defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)
; shield factor (only used for attacks from the front of left)
; sound type when hit = flesh, leather, or metal

As you can see, this unit has only armour defence, as it does not use shield and has no defence skill.

Hope this helps

[Morte]

export_descr_unit.txt

Ah-ha. And the file is commented too.

Well, I switched all the general's cavalry to 1 hitpoint and fought a battle as Pontus against the Galatians. I found that...

- Flinging my general off into the distance to attack some slingers, I took 15% casualties getting there. This was more than I'd normally expect. It seems right -- a cavalry unit crossing open ground into a crossfire between two units of slingers, who get off multiple volleys before contact, shouldn't do it with impunity.

- Pulling out, my general got into a head-to-head battle with a slightly larger unit of regular heavy cavalry who had weaker stats but were less tired. Now usually I'd expect a general to chew through that, until the enemy break or get reinforcements. But this time when I moused over my general, I saw "Defeat is a distinct possibility" instead of the usual "Victory...", and decided to get out of there at the gallop. So I lured the enemy cavalry towards my line and charged spearmen into their flank as they arrived.

After that, I found myself using my general like a tough heavy cavalry unit instead of some kind of invincible wonder troops who could defy military logic and wander the field at will. Definite improvement.

As for the enemy general... I like to think I'm pretty good at killing generals, and I had some light cavalry which I normally see as "routers in the bank", but I didn't get this guy. He lost two thirds of his men, routed early, and got away. It strikes me from this (not overly valid sample of) one battle that durable generals stick around longer, until you've got the battle in hand and can start playing for extra points by hunting them. Of course, we'll see how it pans out after another ten battles.

Hope this helps

Yep.

I wonder whether small AI bodyguard units might be less inclined to attack on the battlefield. I tried changing the unit size, halving all the bodyguard cavalry units, but I got an "invalid unit size 4" popup when I launched the game. Are there specific rules about permissible unit sizes?

The other thing I thought of doing (if possible) is to significantly lower the regeneration rate between turns. That way you could use family members as free cavalry, but not as an inexhaustible supply of free cavalry that's fresh for almost every battle. Is this something that can be modded?

[AngryTitusPullo]

I wonder whether small AI bodyguard units might be less inclined to attack on the battlefield. I tried changing the unit size, halving all the bodyguard cavalry units, but I got an "invalid unit size 4" popup when I launched the game. Are there specific rules about permissible unit sizes?

The lowest bodyguard (or cavalry I think) is 6. That's what I did for my mod. I was intentionally going to set lower, but 6 is the minimum. On the huge setting it will have 24 bodyguards, except the faction leader and heir which somehow got a lot more. Hardcoded unfortunately.

When I first made my mod I was thinking of reducing the HP this way but have been decided not to since I couldn't get a good balance. I prefer not to make Roman generals on horseback like superhuman (as it is in the game.. ) but as Salvor's said it the image of Caesar at Alesia makes me stick the general's HP to to.

Anyway I will follow this discussion closely,who knows maybe for the next coming version I will try to implement it.

[iamphet]

I mean generals of AI factions: I'm afraid you will never meet 10 stars monsters.

[Salvor Hardin]

I think that those two last points might be hardcoded. The later I am quite sure about it.

On the other hand, your tests are quite good so far and I might give them some thought for the new version of 77 BC or the FRRE mods. Particularly in the late Roman Republic, generals did not behave as Alexander, charging enemy units to decide the battle. So your suggested modifications would make a lot of sense. Keep the feedback coming!

[Morte]

I think that those two last points might be hardcoded. The later I am quite sure about it.

Oh well.

On the other hand, your tests are quite good so far and I might give them some thought for the new version of 77 BC or the FRRE mods.

Well, I played the Epirotes and destroyed Rome plus some rebels. I found myself acting careful with my own general, especially since it was Pyrrhus who you don't want to lose...

As for AI opposition, I killed about half the generals I met in open (i.e. not siege) combat. That's a bit less than I normally score, but then I didn't have any fast light cavalry for rout pursuit. The AI generals didn't seem especially suicidal -- e.g. I'd put a charge into the side of a general who was engaged with my line, and he'd pull out PDQ. The only generals I killed were the ones I specifically went for, e.g. assigning troops to surround them (and foregoing other use of those troops).

Particularly in the late Roman Republic, generals did not behave as Alexander, charging enemy units to decide the battle. So your suggested modifications would make a lot of sense.

This goes beyond the simple search and replace I was looking for when I started this thread, but... How about changing the units from "general's bodyguard" to "general's staff" in the more sophisticated armies? Make them light horse armed with just daggers and light armour, and no great combat skills or charge bonus. Perhaps make them inspire nearby units to reflect their switch from combat to organisation. In combat they'd be OK as rout chasers, but not much else. Players might start sending "suicide squads" to nail the flimsy generals. but that happened in reality too.

In cultures where the general does get his hands dirty, leave them as 1 hitpoint cavalry.

Keep the feedback coming!

Another approach would be to raise their upkeep to something more like what they're worth, say a bit less than what regular RTRPE regenerating heavy cavalry would cost. That way players would think twice about accepting every general who married into the family, especially in poorer factions. It might require a small global reduction in troop costs, to rebalance the overall game economics.

Between hitpoint reduction, selective conversion to "staff officers", and cost increases for the useful combatants, I can imagine getting something that's worth a thorough playtest.

[Morte]

A little followup on this after some more play...

I'm generally liking the game with 1 hitpoint bodyguards. They don't dominate battles unduly, or achieve things that are glaringly illogical. I find myself playing careful with them, especially the ones with good traits/retinues.

I did get one AI general who might or might not be called "suicidal". I laid a trap for him -- he chased Velites who retreated through Hastati, then kept going through the Hastati, and still kept on when I ran Samnite swordsmen into his right flank and cavalry into his left. He wasn't outright suicidal in the sense of charging spears for no reason, but he should have pulled out once flanked. I think he stayed because he had abnormally high morale (8 star general), a lesser general would have fled and lived. And I think I'd still have killed him if he had two hitpoints instead of one -- it was overconfidence that killed him, not lack of hitpoints.

OTOH I played a little vanilla with 1 hitpoint generals to test it and they definitely were suicidal, absolutely no question. So I wonder is there some sort of improved AI in ExRM which is making the difference?


If I were a modder, I'd take this idea further. I'd:
- drop all bodyguards to 1 hitpoint
- push the bodyguard cost up to make them cost what they're worth
- give infantry bodyguards instead of cavalry in places like Gaul and Germany
- change the advanced faction bodyguards to non-combatant "staff" (low-skilled light horse), but make them inspire nearby troops

Then I'd take a look at the recruitable 2 hitpoint units (Basternae, Spartans etc). Occasional elite expensive units are OK, but there must be a way to stop factions building great swathes of them in the later game...

[Salvor Hardin]

Morte:

I guess the general units being less suicidal in ExRM might be due to the use of some AI formations created by modders like Darth Vader and Sinuhet. I think that ExRM uses Sinuhet's while 77 BC uses Darth Vader's.

Considering your suggestions for modders:

- drop all bodyguards to 1 hitpoint:

I am seriously considering it for 77 BC. I have noticed through feedback that many 77 BC players are using their Roman generals in an "Alexander's way", which is quite unnacceptable .

- push the bodyguard cost up to make them cost what they're worth:

I have to think about it seriously. We are talking of associated costs for the family members that are governing settlements too and that would be a huge amount of money.

- give infantry bodyguards instead of cavalry in places like Gaul and Germany:

This depends on the History advisors of every modification, really.

- change the advanced faction bodyguards to non-combatant "staff" (low-skilled light horse), but make them inspire nearby troops:

Here my heart is divided too. The image of Caesar in Alesia, charging with his purple cloack to decide the final assault of the relief army comes to my mind quite fast.

Congratulations for your suggestions and feedback, they are well documented and really interesting.

[Quinn Inuit]

No, we're still using Darth's from RTR-PE 1.8, although as soon as I can get ahold of Sinhuet I'm going to see if we can use his for the next version (his old version for ExRM won't support Epirus without an alteration, and I don't want to do that without permission). IIRC, Sinhuet's had very solid spearmen usage, more orderly battle lines, and less suicidal generals.

Morte, does dropping the extra hitpoint change AI general usage? If so, I'll recommend that to my team. The extra hp doesn't help the AI generals much if they charge my battle lines by themselves.

[Sinuhet]

Well, not bad debate. However, the key for the trick to "diminish the suicidality" is not in editing the formations, in my opinion, but the EDU setting as for relative morale values for respective types of units. This is doing the job as for hot-headed genral_units to go eagerly to the spearmen in more advanced manner than only formations tweaking. It is not only for genrals, but for any type of units. With the implementation of this morale trick I ahve gone relatively far (the most far what I know in all RTW mods) in my tweaking EDU and formations for repmans mod. But it is ver labor intensive work, with alot of testing, and results are unpredictable in many times. You must know what you do quite exactly.

Nevertheless, all tricks (via EDU or via descr_formations_ai.txt files) are only tricks. The key for dumb AI in this is underdeveloped hardcode. The general is not, so to speak, able to evaluate his personal situation in the context of the whole situation on the battlefield. It is also the reason why are the sucidal genrals in MTW2 too, while better masked ...

For particular info in more details on this topics from my point of view see the respective threads, which you can find via Searching TWC forums with words such morale and suicidal generals....

I state in the end, that it is absolutely neutral reaction of mine on this thread, on which I was hint by QI. I dont want in any case to start any discussions who or why, or what was in past. My opinions on the sucidal generals are the same, however, like before one and half year.

Bye Sinuhet

[Morte]

However, the key for the trick to "diminish the suicidality" is not in editing the formations, in my opinion, but the EDU setting as for relative morale values for respective types of units.

That's consistent with what I've seen. With 1 hitpoint, the generals lose bodyguards quicker but they rout quicker. The only one who was sort of suicidal was an 8 star with really high morale.

[Morte]

Morte, does dropping the extra hitpoint change AI general usage? If so, I'll recommend that to my team. The extra hp doesn't help the AI generals much if they charge my battle lines by themselves.

I think a full 1HP units behaves about the same as a depleted 2HP unit.They seem to "understand that they're weaker" and act less ambitious. When they do attack, they (mostly) take losses faster and rout faster.


[Sorry for the delay, I've been checking out Europa Barbarorum where the only 2HP units are drugged up naked lunatics who ignore pain and don't go into shock, and I don't mind them dying slow. Though EB gives the generals themselves -- not the bodyguards, just that one person -- multiple hitpoints through the trait system. You get plausible bodyguards, but not too many dead generals.]