FACTION: The Ayyubid Sultanate

[Miraj]

DESCRIPTION



UNIT ROSTER

Barracks

• Tier 1 - Sudani/Zanji Spearmen
  

• Tier 2 - Harafisha Infantry
  

• Tier 2 - Jund Spearmen
  

• Tier 3 - Dismounted Askaris
  

• Tier 3 - Thaqlah Axemen
  
  

• Tier 4 - Dismounted Tawashi
  

• Tier 5 - Mamluk Tabardariyah (Two handed axemen)
  

Range

• Tier 1 - Sudani/Zanji Archers
  

• Tier 2 - Maghrebi Marine [Crossbowmen]
  

• Tier 3 - Dismounted Qaraghulams
  

• Tier 4 - Dismounted Mamluks
  

Stables

• Tier 1 - Ajnad Horsemen
  

• Tier 2 - Qaraghulams
  

• Tier 3 - Askaris Cavalry
  

• Tier 4 - Kurdish Tawashi (Lancers)
  

• Tier 4 - Tawashi Horse Archers
  

• Tier 5 - Toassin Mamluks (Heavy Mamluk horse archer)
  

• Tier 5 - Royal Mamluks
  

SYMBOL AND BANNERS



NAMES

[Ahiga]

I just want to inquire onto something. We've sworn off doing the egyptians and Rum Turks and just give them the vanilla list with some edits. Is that our initial or entire plans for them?

I feel like once we can edit meshes that if we have the time and ability, we should consider doing some renovations with them if we get up and running enough.

For one, I'd really like to see the egyptians get some sort of shield and weapon (Mace or axe) unit. I was interested in seeing if the boyar sons or druchina would work. I've also heard that in the osprey book on Saracen Faris and Christian Crusading orders, the equipment between the two was not -too- different, and at times which side the soldier was on could be made certain only when much closer. So maybe some european meshes can work.

I'll have to find some images to back that up, though.

[The Mongol]

Agreed, Egypt needs some justice when the meshes are editable. Even some Dismounted Mamluks would've been good, the mounted ones have maces iirc.

[kobi118]

egypt need complete upside down makeover, they suck in vanilla, as spearmen unit at their citadel unit

[Miraj]

No don't worry we'll definitely work on Egypt and the "Turkish Sultanate" too. I'd just prefer to get through the hard part of dealing with all the new muslim factions first. Once w'eve gained that experience then we'll deal with these guys.

[Ahiga]

I know that these are fatimid troops, but the style of dress isn't too dramatically different in the near east in this time period (Only around tamerlane's time is there the drifting away from mail and lamellar to mail and plate, for instance), but I really like this look for mailed troops of egypt, or any odd muslim faction.

The look on number 1 would make for a good crossbow unit as well (I'm not sure which would be a good mesh. I'd love to have the shield-slung-on-back able to be pulled up to melee with for a crossbow unit, but I don't know of any meshes with it).

The infantry guardsmen would make for a good heavy spearmen or a good swordsmen (Using the urban Militia mesh).

http://books.google.com/books?id=zl9...fNVVM#PPA50,M1

Google offers some information from the Osprey book of Saladin and the Ayyubids.

I was mistaken on thinking I had seen it say the Abbasids used lance and sword primarily. That was actually the Fatimids. Whether that carries over to Saladin remains uncertain.

I'd like to suggest a sort of 'marian reforms' for the Egyptians, for when they go from Ayyubid to Mameluke. I'd like to find out what differences there were in the two armies, but I'd have to buy osprey books on Saladin as well as on the mamelukes. I'll see if I can get them for cheap on Amazon, but if not, I dunno.

But either way, the Egyptians ought to borrow more from the generic ghulam/faris/Turkoman list prior to the Mamlukes, and afterwards, be able to recruit (Superior? Less Expensive? More plentiful?) Mamluke cavalry.

[Qarama]

will Egypt have the same Flag/Banners like in the normal game?

[Ahiga]

Historically the Fatimids were big on infantry, the Ayyubids less so, the mamelukes the least. But we're setting ourselves for having Saladin only recently taking over Egypt, and for fun, I think we should have it be left up to the player to decide what direction they take: Whether it's towards a cavalry-based force like Saladin would later embrace and the Mamelukes would especially, or a more infantry-based force with strong cavalry.

Mirage, Alpha, and I spoke and I think Alpha expressed a big interest in the Egyptians, and quite frankly I'd rather see his creativity let to flourish in Egypt rather than receive a faction whose just like the Zengids (Big on cavalry and not on infantry). Egypt should be the rising star, the powerhouse which can fight some truly epic fights with the Crusaders with Infantry and Cavalry. Because they are at a crossroads of military-development, the player should decide if they want to go the way of the Fatimids and early Ayyubids (Infantry and cavalry, the former I think of more numbers), or the late Ayyubid and Mamluk (Cavalry with poor infantry).

Sadly, I cannot think of any methods that would let us have that. The only halfway feasible one would be if guilds can somehow have global influences. I know they can in some ways, but I dont think it would with unit recruitment.

Eh, either way, a Fatimid/early Ayyubid style army with lots of infantry and cavalry sounds the best, rather than lots of cavalry and little to no infantry.

Here's some good concept art for the Egyptians & Crusaders:

http://kingandcountry.co.uk/indexpro...es.asp?pcid=48

[CelticPagan]

Mirage, when doing the Ayybids, Saladin (their ruler) should start out with the Ancillary, Maimonides (aka Moshe ben Maimon in Hebrew and Abu Imran Mussa bin Maimun ibn Abdallah al-Qurtubi al-Israili in Arabic) a Jewish Rabbi, Philosopher and Physician born in Spain, educated in Fez and finally court physician to both Saladin and his Grand Vizier, Alfadhil, in Egypt.

I see him giving a +1 to Piety, +10% to Fertility, and +1 to Authority plus a better chance for wounded to heal durring battles.

[Sinan]

Do you have some information on Alfadil ? Only if you have time.

[Beauchamp]

I know that "Al-Afdal" means "leader of the Armies" or "High commander" if thats any help. The "Wazir" was the leader of the "beareaucracies" if you will and the "Qadi" or judge was elected by the Ulama (Plural of Mullah) to lead certain cities etc.
One could have the "Qadi Al-Qahira" or the judge of Cairo.

[Al-Masri]

Zanj usually meant blacks from East Africa

[jermagon]

the banner of the ayyubids sultanate

[jermagon]

sultan quitbay of the mamulke sultanate.this pic is real not imagination,the painter is gentili bentilli 15 century

[jermagon]

a medieval muslim manuscript portrays sultan saladin

[jermagon]

the last mamluke sulatan ''qonsowa al ghouria'' gentily bellini early 16 century

[Beauchamp]

Some unit Ideas, hope its useful:

http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_143_figure_1.htm

also:
http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_118_figure_1.htm

[Randarkmaan]

Anyway regarding the later Ayyubid/Mamluk armies, seeing as with the early Ayyubid armies we (meaning you ) will be taking the freedom to present them something more akin to the Fatimid army (line of spearmen/pikes, capable archers, limited cavalry), I am just wondering how we (again, meaning you ) should represent the later Ayyubids/Mamluks? I would propose something like this:

Mamluks:

"Volley fire" armoured horse-archer (should perhaps be much better than ordinary volley fire as in the 13th century Mamluks were able to stop Crusader charges with horse-archery alone)

"Turkish close bow" horse-archer (The Mamluks appear to have used shock tactics with horse-archers sometimes firing arrows at point blank as they rode enemies down)

Lancer, lightly armoured, but swift and skilled, with a powerful charge, emphasis on hit and run and flanking attacks.

(Heavy) "Abtal" Mamluk cavalry - I think there's a good Osprey picture of a heavily armoured Mamluk cavalryman, its bound to have been posted here.

Should have two dismounted versions, one with bow and an armoured one, maybe with an axe as seen in the Osprey picture I mentioned.

Now moving on to other soldiers:

"Saladin and the Saracens" (Osprey book) mentions a cavalry type known as "Jaridah", they seem to have been recruited mainly from bedouin and they wore no armour as they viewed this as a futile attempt to cheat oneself out of one's pre-determined day of death. Fast, light and brave.

Kurdish soldiers: Free Kurdish cavalry seem to have predominated among Saladin's armies and later non-Mamluk Ayyubid armies. Heavily armoured horsemen riding barded horses seem to have been known as "Tawashi".

Turcomans: Saladin used many Turcomans, though mostly in auxiliary roles and not as the mainstay of his army, I don't know about the later Ayyubids, so perhaps they should not be included.

Footsoldiers: Some Sudani (blacks), but the majority of foot soldiers should be religious volunteers whose equipment should make them useful only in sieges when infantry are needed, basically the Mamluks/Later Ayyubids should only rely on infantry in sieges and when they need big scary armies.

Specialists: Fire-troops, Naffatun and numerous siege machines should be included. the Osprey book "The fall of Acre" mentions the use of something known as "chinese arrows", basically arrows coated with gunpowder, maybe rockets on sticks like what the fire lancers use in the mod Blue Lotus.

[Randarkmaan]

Seeing as the common notion seems to be that the Egyptian military should be split into two; the first one being reminiscent of the Fatimids and the second one of the Mamluks. In the beginning I thought this was a good idea, but when thinking through it I don't think this is what we should do... seeing as in Saladin's army infantry were not dominant, though they were present in large numbers on larger campaigns that could require sieging. So what I'm putting forth here is a sort of merge between the two earlier ideas, it is a sort of proposal to how I think we should do the Egyptians when that time comes.

In the beginning of the Ayyubid dynasty only small numbers of mamluks/ghulams were used, compared to other soldiers, but after a while they were recruited not only by the ruler, but by several of his amirs and the mamluks were frequently given large iqtas. After a while these soldiers overthrew the Ayyubids in Egypt and established their own sultanate where the Mamluks were not just the soldiery, but formed the basis for the state.

The mamluk army was divided into two: The central army of Mamluks, and the provincial army 'Halqa' of free-born troops. I'd say we do it like this: The central/mamluk army has excellent and professional, though expensive, mamluk soldiers, but others are neglected and therefore are of a low (or lower) quality and do not have much variety, basically it has no middle ground. The halqa is more balanced, none of its troops are of the same quality as the mamluks, but it has more variation and troops of all qualities (though not as high as the Mamluks), also seeing as the halqas were provincial armies we should perhaps have one version of it for Egypt and one for Syria, they would share many troops, but Egypt could, for an example use African infantry, while Syria might use Kurdish cavalry.

Both the central- and the halqa army should be able to train the same specialists (naffatun) and siege engines.
We should make the Egyptians start out with only Cairo using the "Central army", all others start out with halqas, though after a while you can begin "centralizing" the army, by building special Mamluk barrackses (or some other buildings, or rather call them "Furusiya training grounds") these allow the training of Mamluk troops but will gradually remove the old halqa units, until all but the lowest tier troops are removed by the time you can train the highest tier mamluk soldiers (perhaps sooner). This is possible to some degree, right?

Feel free to disregard the unit roster I posted above, also tell me what you think of this idea.

[AlphaDelta]

We don't plan on giving Egypt this kind of top to bottom make-over.

Our current plans involve rebuilding the barracks roster to include new:

Arab spearmen
Mailed nubian spearmen
Medium swordsmen (probably Kurdish)
Medium-heavy axemen
Heavy Arab swordsmen

We'll have new Ghazi units aswell that will be recruitable during Jihads.

Cheers