Fate

[Banned]

I do not know beneath what sky nor on what seas shall be thy fate; I only know it shall be high, I only know it shall be great.

Destiny,an ingredient of superstitious prospects or verity?Fate has always been something we blame for the complications in our life dating back to the ancient times when people used to believe in three fates,Clotho who spins the 'Thread of Life',Lachesis who allots the length of the yarn and Atropos who does the final snip.It's a shame that many people in this world are still relying on the existence of fate which I think is making this world a void in this era where everything seems to be in the hands of homo sapien.If fate exists,how did we reach a conclusion about it?Some people might relate it to religion and question the existence of God.And that's also not entirely different from this.Gods are the supernatural elements that have become associated with our lives because we generally believe in worshiping Him due to the fact that our ancestors did.We have no strong proof that could explain the existence of God.The same is the case with fate which remains inexplicable.But it makes me cogitate again and again whether fate exists or not.If it does,do we have no control over our lives?We persevere to make each day of life,full of exultance and pleasures.Is it just an illusion and should we leave everything in the hands of fate and sit back idle thinking that fate will make everything possible for us if it wants to?Certainly,most of you would say 'no' to it.But as a vast majority of people worships God,should we start worshiping fate too,considering it the controller of our lives?Should I rise early in the morning and the way I say my daily prayer to the Sun God,I start deifying fate?For some it may appear to be quite awkward to go around and be extraordinarily superstitious in this matter but for some it may be an addition to daily practice.
Many times I have noticed people suffering despite of being extremely diligent.This has always tempted me to believe in fate and its presence in my life.Sometimes I am even forced by nature to worship fate,whenever I face a hard time.It seems to be an important part of my daily life.Astrology,horoscopes and fate,all seem to be inter-related and we are slaves to such dogmas today.We actually do not know what's right and what's wrong.One sheep falls into the pit and we blindly follow it.It has always been,the human nature to get constrained in a direction we are unsure of.It has always been a tradition to adhere to the principles taught to us by our culture.But I think it's time for us to realize now,what's right to adopt and what's inane.However,we still haven't developed a wise sense of judgement in ourselves which could make us decide the right direction and choose the right path to follow,fate being the point of concern.
If there is fate,I say to it-make the life of every human being as good as possible,and let us be our own masters..

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Hello RI, as usual your posts are thought provoking, I really enjoy them.
For some reason my page timed out while sending this so I'll have to write it again. Some things that come to mind are fate and society. Fate as a concept seems to be mostly egocentric, that is, involving the individual. Rarely outside of politics and patriotism is fate considered for a country, society or organiztion. Looking at the tribe on Easter Island; was it their fate to become extinct from over cultivation of their limited resources? If one person escaped on a raft and made it to another island or 'civilization' he is carrying on the island's bloodline, therefore is it the Easter Islanders' fate to carry on via this one survivor - or did he challenge and defeat his society's fate?
Similarly, let us consider a peasant in South America. He detests his toil, so scrimps and saves, self educates himself and eventually becomes a wealthy land owner. Again, was it his fate to rise from poverty, or did he deny his fate to be a peasant by becoming wealthy? If it were the former, then fate is all powerful and it leads us to discuss in earnest the idea and reality of deity.
And yet, if fate exists, then each individual is of extreeme importance, from a leader of a nation down to a homeless person sleeping under a pile of newspapers. And if this be true, it could be said that life is not a gameboard on which we are all pieces, but life is simply a very long book, of which we are but text. Both ideas are intersting. If life or time truely be a book, I would like to read it's end. (I hope the last page isn't torn out ). Can anyone offer alternatives thought streams? I'd love to hear them.

[Banned]

My mother always used to say-"use your fortitude to the fullest,to defeat the mightiest of 'em all,use your wisdom to judge the most veracious path and free yourselves from the ploy of fate."Such teachings made me consider fate initially,a minor perspective of ours with no actual foundation.But when I looked towards some people who have never accepted fate in their lives,I felt remorseful to say that I didn't believe in fate sometime ago.Such people faced the troubles which probably,none of us have faced so far.Such people slept in the darkest of nights on the face of earth.Such people couldn't manage to survive the austere times inflicted by circumstances,the most thorny passages causing pain and the waves of perpetual grief.Such people persevered a lot to fight against fate,to fight against their circumstances and to choose what they wanted but they ultimately failed.Such people made me believe in fate,made me believe in its existence and made me write down this simple and short poem on a piece of paper...

Oh thou fate,ruler of all
You make men rise and fall
Thy desires control every shore
Even then you seem like wanting more

You outstrip the power of every flesh
For you have the power to make a mesh
You play with minds,hearts and souls
And you can turn men into trolls

If I were you,you were me
Oh no!I wish only to remain free
For you have tons of tasks to perform
Te Salutamus!The day you were born

[Zeffen]

Fate, I dont believe it.
We all have free will.
You do have crossroads throughout your life.
At the fork you can sit down and ponder. If you pray and have a relationship with the Lord, he will steer you correctly.
God will give you signs to help you throughout your life. You dont have to listen, some people will never listen and completely ignore these signs.
A sign: Could be something simple. I was working as a D.O. and hated my job. A series of good and bad coincidences lined up within one week. Those signs appeared to me when I decided to open my eyes. Now I work somewhere I dont completely detest and make more.
This wont be the case for everyone. I'm sure this current employment of mine is not "my calling." Some people will receive signs to go places they may not like, depends on you.
Your choice, you're given free will.
*Allah could be replaced at each instance I said God, Lord. Those two are just my preference.

(please do not call me a moron and put down my beliefs with disrespectful terms. I would not do that to you even if I disagreed completely)

[Tom Paine]

Define fate. Should you wish to define fate as something externally (let me for now call it divinely) imposed, I obviously disagree being an athiest and naturalist (as opposed to suppernaturalist). However should you wish to define fate as any predetermination fro any source, I would be forced to agree to some extent; our whole programme of thoughts is a series of chemical reactions, a series caused by other external events. Basically, the only way to posit free will as opposed to fate is metaphysics, via the soul as a non-physical thing independant of the brain.

[Zeffen]

Define fate. Should you wish to define fate as something externally (let me for now call it divinely) imposed, I obviously disagree being an athiest and naturalist (as opposed to suppernaturalist). However should you wish to define fate as any predetermination fro any source, I would be forced to agree to some extent; our whole programme of thoughts is a series of chemical reactions, a series caused by other external events. Basically, the only way to posit free will as opposed to fate is metaphysics, via the soul as a non-physical thing independant of the brain.

So you do believe we have souls, right?

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Also, if we have souls, are they indvidual from the thoughts and conceptions of the brain? If so, what is our driving daemon? The soul our the brain?
If our brain/thoughts are nothing but chemical occurances, then in order for spirituality to exist, we must belive in soul, otherwise there is nothing to differentiate us from the stimuli-response actions of ants.
Friends, I postulate all of this as questions, please don't think I'm arguing an points here, I'm just allowing my thoughts to proceed wherever they will. Its great to hear all ideas.
@ Ozymandias. Then our brains our not our own. If soul does not exist, if there is no driving manus. By this thought, if we increased one chemical in the brain and decreased another, this would make us into a completely different person? If so, do you believe a higher intelligence created us? Not a diety, per se, but anything.

[Tom Paine]

Nope. I don't. As I said, I'm not a supernaturalists, and a metaphysical soul with no way to interact with the brain controlling the brain... well, inherently and definitely supernaturally.

[Tom Paine]

No, I don't. I don't see the need for such, really I don't. However I do agree that changing the composition of the brain makes us a totally different person; for instance those who change totally after undergoing traumas. That posits a very real problem for proponents of a nonphysical soul, since the soulthing has been evidently affected by the physical trauma.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Or has it? Berhaps it's superior to the corporeal being. The brain is effected, thus affecting the physical body, over which the soul now holds no control? Once again, these are not my opinions, I'm just writing down the thoughts as they arise. But this leads me to asky Ozymandias, how are we here? Why?

[Tom Paine]

Why does there have to be a why? And how... long series of chemical process, equally possible to any other single result possible in the universe. Actually the arising of humans is oddly likely once life forms... evolution is not entirely chaotic.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Why does there have to be a why? And how... long series of chemical process, equally possible to any other single result possible in the universe. Actually the arising of humans is oddly likely once life forms... evolution is not entirely chaotic.

So is it my brain's chemical reactions that are driving me to ask 'why'??. If so, then my chemicals are questioning my own chemicals :hmmm: .
Are your chemicals combining to make you think there's no need to ask why? If so, have you ever asked why before the present time? Then what happened between then and now with your chemicals to change from asking why to not seeing a reason for a why?
Oh, boy, I just made myself dizzy . Interesting stuff though, I look forward to hearing your answer.

[Tom Paine]

Mainly because its also chemical reactions to external conditions (reaction to your post for instance); its all a massive interlinked system, your post, my "mind", everything, with no set aim in mind but all predetermined.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Predetermined......as in fate?
So, chemical reactions to exterior conditions, then why is there a 'choice' in chemical reactions - that is responses? We can respsond with anger, with silence, with contemplation before answering, or with answering 'without thinking' as they say. Why is there a chemical reaction which governs thse sub-chemical reactions for each choice.
When a deer percieves a danger, it bounds away. When a human percieves a danger it assess the situation (chemical reactions?) then makes a choice from various outcomes, ie, running, hiding, fighting, communicating, and so forth. Why so many chemical reaction/choices.
Now, will it be possible for human, through meditations, cerebral exercises, 'evolution' etc, to maintain their own chemical levels and adjust them accordingly?
Sorry, I have to go back to work, but one last question, what do you believe happens to us when we die?

[Tom Paine]

Predetermined......as in fate?
So, chemical reactions to exterior conditions, then why is there a 'choice' in chemical reactions - that is responses? We can respsond with anger, with silence, with contemplation before answering, or with answering 'without thinking' as they say. Why is there a chemical reaction which governs thse sub-chemical reactions for each choice.
When a deer percieves a danger, it bounds away. When a human percieves a danger it assess the situation (chemical reactions?) then makes a choice from various outcomes, ie, running, hiding, fighting, communicating, and so forth. Why so many chemical reaction/choices.
Now, will it be possible for human, through meditations, cerebral exercises, 'evolution' etc, to maintain their own chemical levels and adjust them accordingly?
Sorry, I have to go back to work, but one last question, what do you believe happens to us when we die?

The illusion of choice may be comforting but all it is, is an illusion. Nothing more. We appear to think and assess independantly and with no constraints but prior experiences, chemical and other reactions in the brain, and so on all determine the response with no choice involved; as such, no, we can't choose to adjust the chemical levels.

Oh, and when we die, that's kinda it. Its over. We are dead. Fini.

[empty]

There is no such thing as fate (for me). Fate is more probably to those that have religions. I don't have any.
We define our paths. We control ourselves. We think as ourselves. What more can we say?
Every individual is born with certain qualities (physical, mental and with certain beneficts perhaps, like being rich already). It's sometimes nature's law: the strongest survive and the weakest don't.

But it's a good point to do a thread here in mores etc to talk about fate, since it's most of the time a synonym of ambiguity to all...

Hope you understood what I tried to express.

[Hafnium]

There is no such thing as fate (for me). Fate is more probably to those that have religions. I don't have any.
We define our paths. We control ourselves. We think as ourselves. What more can we say?
Every individual is born with certain qualities (physical, mental and with certain beneficts perhaps, like being rich already). It's sometimes nature's law: the strongest survive and the weakest don't.

But it's a good point to do a thread here in mores etc to talk about fate, since it's most of the time a synonym of ambiguity to all...

Hope you understood what I tried to express.

Agree completely.

Julius Isidrus, what's with the weird post?

Could you try to explain how I have no free will? I can choose to do pretty much what I want, and I can foresee consequenses and possibilities that my actions will bring. But you say that fate controls all that?

About receiving "signs" that some of you posted about. In my opinion there are no signs sent to us by a higher power, but people can choose to see coincidences and flukes of luck as signs. If I see a potato chip in a weird shape, I eat it. If someone else sees one, they may think it's a sign to change dentists.:hmmm:

[Julius Isidrus]

Fate exists, it's a fact. And obviously i can't explain it.
I know that free-will is an illusion and i accept it. I forget about it and i continue my life normally. (I'm not religious)

(Before facing Achilles, Hector conforts his wife with this words: No one will kill me against Fate's will.)

Allow me to try to resume Fate:

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players"

(the script)

Empty: There is no such thing as fate (for me). Fate is more probably to those that have religions. I don't have any.
We define our paths. We control ourselves. We think as ourselves. What more can we say?
Every individual is born with certain qualities (physical, mental and with certain beneficts perhaps, like being rich already). It's sometimes nature's law: the strongest survive and the weakest don't.

But it's a good point to do a thread here in mores etc to talk about fate, since it's most of the time a synonym of ambiguity to all...

Hope you understood what I tried to express.

Ozymandias: The illusion of choice may be comforting but all it is, is an illusion. Nothing more. We appear to think and assess independantly and with no constraints but prior experiences, chemical and other reactions in the brain, and so on all determine the response with no choice involved; as such, no, we can't choose to adjust the chemical levels.

Oh, and when we die, that's kinda it. Its over. We are dead. Fini.

Julius Isidrus: Fate exists, it's a fact. And obviously i can't explain it.
I know that free-will is an illusion and i accept it. I forget about it and i continue my life normally. (I'm not religious)

(Before facing Achilles, Hector conforts his wife with this words: No one will kill me against Fate's will.)

Allow me to try to resume Fate:

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players"

(the script)

Empty: There is no such thing as fate (for me). Fate is more probably to those that have religions. I don't have any.
We define our paths. We control ourselves. We think as ourselves. What more can we say?
Every individual is born with certain qualities (physical, mental and with certain beneficts perhaps, like being rich already). It's sometimes nature's law: the strongest survive and the weakest don't.

But it's a good point to do a thread here in mores etc to talk about fate, since it's most of the time a synonym of ambiguity to all...

Hope you understood what I tried to express.

Ozymandias: The illusion of choice may be comforting but all it is, is an illusion. Nothing more. We appear to think and assess independantly and with no constraints but prior experiences, chemical and other reactions in the brain, and so on all determine the response with no choice involved; as such, no, we can't choose to adjust the chemical levels.

Oh, and when we die, that's kinda it. Its over. We are dead. Fini.
(...)

Why is this this way? Who knows?

[Tom Paine]

Unless you posit something external to the physical universe then you have free will since everything is simply a matter of cause and effect, no more, no less. Simple as. Mechanistic? Yep, I'm afraid so, but its the only logical materialist stance.