Vow of poverty

**mrme** · March 14, 2007, 04:49 PM

I have a friend (well I don't like him, but he thinks we're friends) who's father is a minister in a methodist church, and his parents are moving to Israel to do some missionary work.

I never thought there was anything unusual about the scenario up until recently, but today he told me some things that simply make me sick to my stomach. I guess it should be said that this kid, or at least his parents, are loaded. His mother is a retired Israeli soldier who hasn't worked in 15-20 years, and his father made his fortune through the... church. Long story short, someone's been cooking the books, but no one's saying anything. They live in an 800 THOUSAND dollar home and own multiple luxury cars.

But here's the kicker, apparently this doesn't really satisfy them because when they move to Israel they won't be getting a modest apartment/house from which they can do their missionary work. Instead the churchgoers are going to "help them start out" by footing the bill for a 1.5 MILLION dollar mansion.

What really pisses me off though is that the kid implied that the people who fill the donation plates might be "misinformed" as to where exactly this money is going.

Now what are your thoughts about the vow of poverty? I've always thought it was slightly extreme but after seeing this, I can't help but too think of the better uses that the donated money could have. Instead of buying a couple of extra cars it could have built a dozen wells in Africa, instead of buying breast implants for the minister's wife it could have gone to the poor who live right in our town! Instead of spending 1.5 million dollars on a "house" it could have funded an ACTUAL MISSION TRIP.

Well I guess this turned out to be more of a rant than I wanted, but nonetheless your thoughts/suggestions would be welcome

**Dunecat** · March 14, 2007, 05:14 PM

Where are you getting your information?

Is it possible that the "mansion" is not a mission-related structure? Or is it really a huge house being constructed?

My belief is that people should not be judged as immoral for doing what they want with what is rightfully theirs. However, is it going to far to say that giving money to others instead of oneself is better? No. As the good book says,

Originally Posted by 1 Timothy

But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

**Zephrelial** · March 14, 2007, 05:24 PM

In my life I met lots of people some were economically average,some were really poor and some were very rich.
In the life we live in money is a bitter part of reality.It's absence is the cause of tons of problems.However,I have come to the conclusion that it's abundance also creates tons of problems like how to spend it or to be never satisfied with anything.
Personally,I firmly believe it's deeply embedded in humannature,perphaps in our genetic s or something to be constantly discontent.
And about the rich people,I have seen many and they really have an attitude problem and they are arrogant.
The important point is to be decent,not to be rich or poor.They are not that important or in fact not important at all when I'm interacting with someone.

**mrme** · March 14, 2007, 05:36 PM

This is coming from the kid himself, it is a house as he's shown me pictures of it. Also I don't give a rat's ass if they are rich or not, it's that fact that this "man of God" sees nothing wrong with spending the Church's money on Jags and big homes.

**Dunecat** · March 14, 2007, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by mrme

This is coming from the kid himself, it is a house as he's shown me pictures of it. Also I don't give a rat's ass if they are rich or not, it's that fact that this "man of God" sees nothing wrong with spending the Church's money on Jags and big homes.

Well then yes, I would most certainly agree with you, what he is doing is not right.

I would not be so quick as to say he's wrong either. He's kind of in a moral limbo.

But you already have my take on it, so there it is. I would ultimately consult respected clergy and elders of your church, and who knows? Maybe you could change things for the better.

**RZZZA** · March 14, 2007, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by mrme

This is coming from the kid himself, it is a house as he's shown me pictures of it. Also I don't give a rat's ass if they are rich or not, it's that fact that this "man of God" sees nothing wrong with spending the Church's money on Jags and big homes.

This is why its folly to take spiritual advice from a man who's no more holy than you.

Why do people listen to preachers and bishops and preists? Theyre just some guy. Some guy...with a holier than thou attitude, who is no more benevolent than the next man.

If you wish to seek wisdom and truth, dont go to a church. Go to an old folks home and listen to the elderly.

P.S. its time we started to tax churches.

**NaptownKnight** · March 14, 2007, 09:53 PM

Well even though I don,t go to church my friends always tell me about the Pastor driving a nice car. It's nothing new, although I have to admit I have never heard of a preacher being that loaded.

**Sétanta** · March 14, 2007, 09:58 PM

Protestants don't take vows of poverty, that is for Catholic Priests. My local priest drives a 92 Honda civic with over 100,000 miles on it, lives in a tiny apartment and has a wardrobe consisting of blue, white, black and grey collared shirts and black/white and khaki pants and a few khaki shorts. That's about it. A lot of Protestant ministers who run their congregation get a lot of money, after all the tithings go straight to him, rather than a huge organization that has to pay for hundreds of thousands of "employees" as well as fund massive charity organisations all while giving billions to the poor.

**RZZZA** · March 14, 2007, 10:21 PM

Why does a preist need a nice car anyway? You'd think his favor with God would just propel him forward on his path, using no fuel save those of happy thoughts and the selfless wishes of children. But apparently even those closest to God must still indulge in earthly pleasures.

I find that you can judge how big of an A-hole someone is by the car they drive and the job they hold. If youre a self proclaimed man of God and you drive a sports car, then youre an A hole. If you drive a hummer, youre a much bigger A hole.

And if you pick out a mid range, unassuming yet still comfy car...like say an audi or something...then youre a decent guy with good taste and youre secure with yourself.

**Sétanta** · March 14, 2007, 11:02 PM

Nobody needs a nice car, much less a Priest. If it is safe, reliable and goes from A to B, then it is fine.

**RZZZA** · March 14, 2007, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sétanta

Nobody needs a nice car, much less a Priest. If it is safe, reliable and goes from A to B, then it is fine.

right, but thats not my point. My point is even those who proclaim thesmelves to be closest to God must still indulge in Earthly pleasures. Where is the line drawn? When does indulging in earthly pleasures become immoral for a preist? I bet nobody (save vegitarians and PETA members) would complain if a preist ate a nice steak for dinner. A few might complain if the same preist buys himself a Lamborghini. And still more would cry out if that same preist buys a million dollar mansion...

Where is the line drawn? What level of Earthly comfort and indulgence is appropriate for a preist?

edit: to not be so rhetorical, I'll state my opinion.

I think its entirely inappropriate for a preist to focus so much on material things. Isnt this guy supposed to be bringing attention to the afterlife, and how we can do good now while we're here? Its a bit hypocritical for this man to read "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven" and then peel out of the church parking lot in his lamborghini.

**Sétanta** · March 14, 2007, 11:16 PM

I don't know, but anything that is a luxury is probably frowned upon. Driving a car to get to work isn't earthly, it is neccessary. Would you rather he walk 40 miles. I am sure he would be willing to do that, but his body probably would give out on him. Now if he was driving a nice car to Church, there would be a problem because he doesn't need a nice car. And everybody needs to eat, who cares what it tastes like. If it is neccessary for survival, nobody complains. If it is something that is nice to have, but you don't need, then there are complaints.

And Priests don't make hardly any money anyways. That is why they spend as much time as possible at Church, so they don't run out of money just paying the bills.

**RZZZA** · March 14, 2007, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sétanta

I don't know, but anything that is a luxury is probably frowned upon. Driving a car to get to work isn't earthly, it is neccessary. Would you rather he walk 40 miles. I am sure he would be willing to do that, but his body probably would give out on him. Now if he was driving a nice car to Church, there would be a problem because he doesn't need a nice car. And everybody needs to eat, who cares what it tastes like. If it is neccessary for survival, nobody complains. If it is something that is nice to have, but you don't need, then there are complaints.

And Priests don't make hardly any money anyways. That is why they spend as much time as possible at Church, so they don't run out of money just paying the bills.

I dont know dude, perhaps im mixing up the terminology but a lot of these evangelists and these TV pastors ARE quite rich. Those are the people I'm talking about, not the really good preists who do live a meager lifestyle, who dont take on more rewarding jobs for fear of abandoning their flock...

Originally Posted by Farnan

I believe in a more Quaker style church. In that there would be no priests or pastors. Their will be a director who will set agenda, but on Sundays they will meet and will discuss Christianity and the Bible. Everyone is equal. If something comes up in someone's life they will talk about it in relation to religion, they will counsel each other.

Yeah, I dont know a whole lot about quakers but the little I do know makes me respect them more. How come quakerism never caught on in america? theyve been here since the formation of the country, but you never hear much about them.

Its all mormon this, branch davidian and scientologist that. Ugh....the media as always will only show us the bad parts of things.

**Farnan** · March 14, 2007, 11:17 PM

I believe in a more Quaker style church. In that there would be no priests or pastors. Their will be a director who will set agenda, but on Sundays they will meet and will discuss Christianity and the Bible. Everyone is equal. If something comes up in someone's life they will talk about it in relation to religion, they will counsel each other.

**empty** · March 19, 2007, 04:44 PM

These are the kind of things that are usually blind to many, including media.
Man, our world is so ridicularized by many theists these days!...
We should all do what we think we should do (I mean, the good way)...

**Hansa** · March 19, 2007, 06:08 PM

Never ever trust a rich priest, was Jesus loaded?

Me thinks not.

**boofhead** · March 19, 2007, 08:53 PM

That is totally hypocritical. Reminds me of the scandalous US televangelists who twist the Bible and end up with all sorts of drivel about "(financial) prosperity" but first require donations so that you may "receive" and "be increased" seven or tenfold.

Run a mile from those guys. Immoral capitalist hypocrites.

Jesus would liken them to rich men trying to fit through the eye of a needle.