The Case against the Patrician Class

[Perikles]

Redefining the Patrician Rank(Just call me the reform slayer)

Proposer: Perikles
Supporters:

The following articles will be changed:

Section 2 Article 3 - Legislative Procedure

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three patriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, requesting more time for debate.

When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the proposer, the name of the bills three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread, are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Section 2 Article 4 - Curial Committees

After a Decision is made by a temporary committee, it shall be posted in the Prothalamos for three days, prior to implementation. If three or more PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, state an objection, implementation will be postponed. It will be at the discretion of the Curator, Committee, and Committee Chairman whether to take the proposal back to the committee for revision (the objecting PatriciansCitizens are therefore expected to take part in the revision discussion), or continue the discussion in the Prothalamos until there are no more than two objections.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks

Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires.contribute to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months.

A Citizen may be nominated to this rank by another PatricianA Citizen may be promoted to this rank in accordance with Article 4 below. Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
The prospective Patrician must have been a held the rank of Citizen for 3 months and recived no warnings.

A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

Article 3 - Patronisation

Any Citizenholding their rank for three monthsPatrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians

A Citizen is nominated by an existing Patrician, who PMs a CdeC member to commence the nomination procedure. Points 3 and 4 of Article 3 are then followed.A Citizen with 3 months good standing can PM the Speaker of the House and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician. Good Standing is defined as having received no warnings.

Appendix A shall also be removed.

This proposal reverses the reforms effectivly.

I'm bringing my old proposal back as i think it is the best solution.

[Perikles]

The CdeC won't have enough members soon, the patrician rank is stagnating. Any short term boost in patrician ranks will be short lived as history shows us the rot will return. I'm not fussing anymore, let's just reverse the reforms once and for all.

Redefining the Patrician Rank

Proposer: Perikles
Supporters: Makanyane, Fabolous, Seneca

Citizens: Kara Kolyo, Arakorn-eir, Scorch

The following articles will be changed:

Section 2 Article 3 - Legislative Procedure

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three patriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, requesting more time for debate.

When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the proposer, the name of the bills three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread, are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Section 2 Article 4 - Curial Committees

After a Decision is made by a temporary committee, it shall be posted in the Prothalamos for three days, prior to implementation. If three or more PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, state an objection, implementation will be postponed. It will be at the discretion of the Curator, Committee, and Committee Chairman whether to take the proposal back to the committee for revision (the objecting PatriciansCitizens are therefore expected to take part in the revision discussion), or continue the discussion in the Prothalamos until there are no more than two objections.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks

Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires.contribute to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months.

A Citizen may be nominated to this rank by another PatricianA Citizen may be promoted to this rank in accordance with Article 4 below. Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
The prospective Patrician must have been a held the rank of Citizen for 3 months and recived no warnings.

A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

Article 3 - Patronisation

Any Citizenholding their rank for three monthsPatrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians

A Citizen is nominated by an existing Patrician, who PMs a CdeC member to commence the nomination procedure. Points 3 and 4 of Article 3 are then followed.Any Citizen who has held their rank for three months, without receiving a Staff warning, may PM the Speaker of the House and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician.

Appendix A shall also be removed.

If this passes it will not overwrite any changes made by this bill

[makanyane]

I support

[Virgil]

I like it. The particians remain important and it returns them to the former status which they once held. It also means that they are still required for the legislative process to move foreward. This proposal is essentially what I had hoped would be proposed.

[the Black Prince]

I like it... nay, i support it!

[Tom Paine]

Go for it, yes; official formal support.

[Tom Paine]

CdC still decides; that's a matter of who qualifies as a possible, not who qualifies as certainty.

[Silver Guard]

CdeC however changes, another six months from now (the system will probably have changed enormously) very few to none of the present members will still be there. Times change, this constitution will remind people to keep the par slightly higher.

[Virgil]

I agree spiff that the wording you changed (the bottom one correct?) is the better choice. I dont agree fully on it sounding like you are immidiately promoted however. request for promotion requires consent which may not automatically be given. Dunno - one can always add clarifying sentiments.

edit - having reread the proposed changes - it does not seem to specifically indicate that new patricians must be ratified by the CdeC. If this is intentional forgive me. It seems, however that there is some confusion and if this is the case may I propose the following addition:

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians
Any Citizen who has held their rank for three months, without receiving a Staff warning, may PM the Speaker of the House and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician.Having requested promotion from the speaker of the house, the citizen will then have a vote opened in the CdeC and if passed will be promoted to patrician.

You legal eagles can fuss with the wording if its not up to snuff but that's the basic idea. Not really sure what to say if they fail. Wait another three months? appeal? that s something to puzzle out if this revision passes or is accepted in more or less the state it's in.

[Spiff]

The vote is not required as the only basis for judgement is specified as having not received a warning within the three months spent as a Citizen - no one would be able to vote "no" for any other reason.

[Tom Paine]

The vote is not required as the only basis for judgement is specified as having not received a warning within the three months spent as a Citizen - no one would be able to vote "no" for any other reason.

Ah.... I misinterpreted it, in that case, and therefore withdraw my support. It should not be automatically granted.

[Silver Guard]

Spiff- Hense my opposal. This essencialy becomes a "I've been here for 3 months!" good luck badge, with no real function or meaning. I propose the following changes to JP's proposal
This adds CdeC decision on the rank, essencialy giving them the ability to regulate Patrician numbers and quality, making it an ever more important position. It also gives bakc the old neccissary conduct, to make it clear that it is more difficult then Civitate votes.

Reformation of the Patrician rank bill

Proposer: Silver Guard
Supporters: Ozymandias
The following articles will be changed:

Section 2 Article 3 - Legislative Procedure

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three Citizens, one of whom must be a Patrician and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three Citizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, requesting more time for debate.

When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the proposer, the name of the bills three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread, are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Section 2 Article 4 - Curial Committees

After a Decision is made by a temporary committee, it shall be posted in the Prothalamos for three days, prior to implementation. If three or more Citizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, state an objection, implementation will be postponed. It will be at the discretion of the Curator, Committee, and Committee Chairman whether to take the proposal back to the committee for revision (the objecting Citizens are therefore expected to take part in the revision discussion), or continue the discussion in the Prothalamos until there are no more than two objections.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks

Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires
A Citizen may be promoted to this rank in accordance with Article 4 below. The prospective Patrician must have been a held the rank of Citizen for 3 months and recived no warnings.

A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

Article 3 - Patronisation

Any Patrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians

Any Citizen who has held their rank for three months, without receiving a Staff warning, may PM the Speaker of the House and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician. Having requested promotion from the speaker of the house, the citizen will then have a vote opened in the CdeC and if passed with a two-thirds majority will be promoted to patrician.

[Perikles]

I support

(As long as it is still getting rid of Appendix A)

[Tom Paine]

Okay, I support SG's version of Perikles' bill (ie, Perikles+SG). But I don't see the point, now, of abolishing Appendix A, only ever a guideline in the first place.

[makanyane]

In Perikles original suggestion it made sense to move the ability to patronise back to patricians only as that was effectively only confirming existing position

Change it back to being conferred upon 3 months good service as a Citizen (and then allow only patricians to patronise)

i.e. at moment you have to have 3 months without warns as a citizen, and if Patricianship were automatic that would be same in effect.

With later proposals, if Patricians have to self nominate (which tBP pointed out in other thread a lot of citizens probably wouldn't bother to do) and if Patricians still have to go through CdeC vote (criteria to be determined) then moving the right to patronise back to Patricians only again would reduce number of people able to patronise quite drastically - did you actually intend to do that?

[Silver Guard]

Yes, that was intended. As you said, with so many who just aren't interested in the Patrician rank it will hardly grow. As the only rank which can Patronise however it not only close to insures carefully thought out choosing of candidates, but also gives an insentive to apply or accept a nomination to the rank.

[makanyane]

Thanks SG, that has clarified that point - on that basis though I would oppose this bill, as it's taking something away from the citizen class without having really even discussed whether that is advisable. So under the guise of reforming the Patrician rank and making that more accessible, we could, by default end up with less new Citizens.

If you believe that the number of people able to patronise Peregrinus for citizenship* should be reduced wouldn't that be better put in a separate subsequent bill, so it can be considered on it's own merits and not under the banner of reforming the Patrician Class?

*Edited for clarity

[Muizer]

Well it could be considered linking the two, meaning a citizen could become a patrician by means of a succesful patronization.

[Halie Satanus]

Opposed for the reason Mak has highlited.

[Perikles]

Well it seems we have 2 options here:

A) My first option, reverse the reforms and make the Patrician rank automaitcally ained upon 3 months as a Citizen without warnings. Patricians become the only ones who could patronise like before.

b)SG Option, like mine but prospective Patricians require a CDC vote too.

I really don't mind each option (preferable mine ) so if people want to choose we can go with either.