Orthodox Christianity

[Dunecat]

I want to learn more about Orthodox Christianity. I've done some research on the internet, but to be frank (who?), wikipedia is pretty impersonal. I know there are some of believers on this board so I just wanted to have a dialogue with you.

This is not "point out the 'flaws' of Christianity" thread. I already am aware of the controversies surrounding Christianity, having attended and been educated in Christianity and denominational apologetics my whole life. I've lived in most Christian atmospheres... Except Greek Orthodox. And it intrigues me.

Is there really alot of ******** you have to deal with? Such as pastoral molestation allegations, or origin debate? I ask this because I honestly would want to be part of a church that didn't have that crap. The crap that prevented me on focusing on the main things mainly- God, and my humility.

I am "athiest", but only because of my own convictions of current religions I have encountered. There are some things I agree morally with them, but some I do not. I disagree with some Protestant denominations in the fact that "good" is only "good" if it comes from God. Well, I believe that if there is a God, a "good" God, then the good would be God. "God is love" sums it up perfectly.

I have trouble surrendering or connecting with a God that has a "test" system implemented- which we pass or fail. Frankly, I find if that were the case that God would be a massive dick, and- right or wrong- I just have a hard time coping with that as a possiblity. I just do.

So, being that the whole do-good-or-suffer-eternally is a main tenent of Christian forms that I'm aware of, I logically would then have a hard time giving the rest of the belief any credence if the core tenets directly conflict with my self-concieved morality and worldview. But I digress...

I hope to hear from anyone, and again, thanks for any comments!

[SickBoy13]

In the Armenian Orthodox church, molestation has never occurred because our priests can marry (though anything higher may not live with his family), but I think you mention the Greek Orthodoxy specifically.
In the Eastern Church, the filioque is not added to the Nicene Creed as in Western Christianity "The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father" is in our creed, for it has been unchanged.
Technically, the Oriental Orthodoxy is monophysite, but that is a broad term, so I don't like using it for myself.
In the Orthodox church, God is never depicted, as that is simplifying and degrading God. His appearance is also not very important, we focus on the spirituality as opposed to the physical rituals in the West.
I have more, but I have to go.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, you've come to the right place then. There are one or two of us Orthodox around here at TWC; I myself am a former Scottish Presbyterian who converted to Greek Orthodoxy, so I can perhaps give some information from a Westerner's perspective.

Now, as to your first question, I have to say that there isn't a 'lot' of 'pastoral molestation'. Now no Church is perfect, and I don't think that any Church has more or less of these problems than any other Church. There was a case recently in which one of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America's priests was accused of molestation, though he was quickly investigated and has been permanently suspended. I don't know of any other cases, though from what I can tell the Orthodox Church always takes extremely swift action where this is concerned. I'd like to say that we have no molestation, but unfortunately every human individual is capable of sin and as individuals the Orthodox do not claim to be any better than anyone else.

Now, you ask some really quite significant questions about salvation. If you're looking to find a god that suits you, one who won't bother with judging you and who will accept you 'as your are', no matter what you do, then I'm afraid Orthodoxy isn't the place for you (unless you change your mind). Creating your own version of God to suit yourself is known as 'idolatry', in essence.

Now, I'll sum up the Orthodox view of salvation in a nutshell (though I'll provide further links at the bottom of this post to give you more in depth information).

God gave man free will. Orthodox do not believe in the Calvinistic conception of God in which God decides which men are going to be good and which are bad. Orthodox theology teaches that man has a choice, and is always making that choice. However, men are naturally self-centred, and so the bad choices are generally much more appealing than the good choices. As scripture says, the path to God is a narrow one indeed, as it involves much self-sacrifice.

Now, like Protestants (well, it's really the case that they're like us, not the other way around), Orthodox Christians believe that men are sinners. Sin takes a person further and further away from God, down the path to hell. Men on their own cannot do any good works that are capable of erasing all their past faults - nobody can find God purely through their own actions. Rather, God seeks out man (as scripture tells us) and offers man a chance at redemption, with one proviso - man must realise that he has sinned and must accept God's saving Grace. If God offers His Grace to us, He won't force us to accept it - that's our choice. However, if we don't accept it, then obviously we can't have it! So then, we need to choose to accept it.

How do a person's works fit in? Well, works by themselves are not enough to save a person. Only a person's contrition and acceptance of God's mercy can do that. But, unlike most Protestant groups, Orthodox will never claim in this life that they have been 'saved' - the nearest that they will claim is that they 'hope to be saved' at the last judgment. The reason is this - because man has free will, even if he makes a decision one way or the other, he can still go back on it, often through simple forgetfulness. Sin makes a man forget the Grace that he has received from God, and so man must live in a constant battle against sin, trying to prevent it from pulling him away from God. Salvation then is a process in time, rather than an instantaneous event, and man must draw closer to God all the time.

In that respect, there's no 'test', save the test as to whether or not we accept God's mercy and then continue in it.

This was a waffling and confusing post, so here are some good and reliable links for more info:

Orthodoxy for Absolute Beginners
http://orthodoxchristianity.orgfree.com/ (a straightforward introduction, though not very advanced)

What is the Greek Orthodox Church?
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/ar...rticle8032.asp

Why I should consider the Orthodox Church
http://www.orthodox.clara.net/whyishould.htm

Orthodox Q&A
http://www.oca.org/QAIndex.asp?SID=3

Something slightly more advanced...
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/

To sum up the Orthodox Church very briefly, I once heard an excellent quotation from an Orthodox priest in America:

We're not Jewish, but we are Orthodox*.
We're not Roman, but we are Catholic**.
We're not Protestant, but their Bible came from us.
We're not a denomination, because we pre-date the concept of denomination.

*From Greek 'Orthodoxeia', meaning 'right belief' or 'right worship'.
**From Greek 'Kath' Holikos', meaning 'according to the whole', ie. 'universal'.

[Dunecat]

Been doing alot of reading, and I don't want to put this the wrong way (as you pointed out), but I really do like, or at least was relieved, when I learned about the orthodox belief of Mary. Because I always did hold that view:

The Assumption is accepted and it is agreed that Mary experienced physical death, but the Immaculate conception is rejected. Orthodox belief is that the guilt of original sin is not transmitted from one generation to the next, thus obviating the need for Mary to be sinless.

I do have a question, though, about Purgatory. The site quoted above states that:

An intermediate state between earth and heaven is recognised, but cleansing and purification occur in this life, not the next.

So, does that mean the Orthodox view is that there is one? Where is there teaching (in the bible or councils) where this is discussed?

I would like the same for the topic of Saints, as well... I just never understood the worship and/or deifying, at least what it seems like to me, of "saints".

I have found nothing yet dealing with Icons (sp?)...

I have one final question, coming from a Roman Catholic background... What really seperates Ortodoxy from Roman Catholocism? Where does that leave the RC? Is it right, wrong, or somewhere inbetween?

Thanks.

[therussian]

Been doing alot of reading, and I don't want to put this the wrong way (as you pointed out), but I really do like, or at least was relieved, when I learned about the orthodox belief of Mary. Because I always did hold that view:



I do have a question, though, about Purgatory. The site quoted above states that:

So, does that mean the Orthodox view is that there is one? Where is there teaching (in the bible or councils) where this is discussed?

I would like the same for the topic of Saints, as well... I just never understood the worship and/or deifying, at least what it seems like to me, of "saints".

I have found nothing yet dealing with Icons (sp?)...

I have one final question, coming from a Roman Catholic background... What really seperates Ortodoxy from Roman Catholocism? Where does that leave the RC? Is it right, wrong, or somewhere inbetween?

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that Orthodox Christianity does not believe in Purgatory. Either Heaven or Hell

As for the differences, I think the biggest is the filioque that SickBoy stated. It's kind of confusing, but it's mainly about the composition of God, you know, like the Trinity and whatnot. That's what caused the great Schism between the two Churches back in......1045? Sometime around there.

I'm probably not the best to explain. I'm Orthodox, but I'm not very highly learned in its structure and beliefs.

Oh, and Saints. Yes, Orthodoxy does have countless saints, but we do not worship them in the way we worship God. Saints are seen more as excellent role models, because they embodied God's message of love, respect and sacrifice. I guess they would be seen as "holy" but not "Holy" (with a capital, signifying a godlike holiness); they have been touched by the Holiness of God.



That's my take on it.

Edit: Ah. I missed the icons part. Iconography was developed first by the Orthodox Church, it was later incorporated into the Catholic Church. There was a huge row during the end of the 1st millenium, in the 8th and 9th centuries (notably the Emperors Leo III, Constantine V, and Leo V) about Iconoclasm (that is, the destroying of icons), and whether venerating the icons of saints was unholy because they were seen by many to be demi-godly. Icons of Jesus, were also condemned because it was seen as worshiping to an idol (since the icon was an inanimate object), and thus broke one of the commandments Iconoclasm was soon done away with and since then the Orthodox Church has used icons very much.

You might want to check this out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconocl...ine_Iconoclasm

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, 'purgatory' is not an Orthodox doctrine. There were some people who believed it in the 19th century (particularly in parts of Eastern Europe where Roman Catholic influence was strong), and technically you can still believe it. The reason for this flexibility is for the simple fact that, fairly obviously, nobody who is alive today has ever died and then given us a record of what they saw afterwards. The Bible and the Church Fathers are pretty hazy on this, but the general consensus is that, after dying, the person goes to Hades (Jewish 'Sheol'), there to await the second coming of Christ. This is the closest thing in Orthodoxy to purgatory; however, as far as we can say, there is no ritual purgation in Hades. Unfortunately, not being a professional theologian, I can't say much more.

Now, nobody deifies saints, and nor do they worship saints. Orthodox worship God, and God alone. We do venerate (ie. respect) them however, as they have set examples and standards for which we should aim in life. Furthermore, St Paul notes in one of his letters that 'the prayers of a righteous man are most effective'; thus Orthodox ask the saints to pray to God and intercede on their behalf.

One thing I would add to Bulgaroctonus' statements on iconography is that icons had always been a significant part of Jewish faith (see Exodus 25 for God's command that the Temple sanctuary should have icons of cherubim). From archaeology we can also see that iconography played a significant role (though not as developed as it would become) in the earliest surviving Christian churces. For example, the Christian catacombs at Rome, a baptistry at Doura-Europos and some other early remains are all covered in Christian iconography. Iconoclasm was an extremely new concept in the 8th century, most likely influenced by the rise of Islam not far away (Islam is highly iconoclastic). However, icons are seen as necessary in fully appreciating the incarnation of Christ - but that's a bit advanced for the moment, perhaps.

Now, as to the differences between the Orthodox and the Catholics - at first they were mostly cultural, but then a deep rift developed surrounding the Nicene Creed and the position of the Pope within the Church. The early Church had always been conciliar; statements of doctrine were agreed upon and issued by the Oecumenical Councils, gatherings of all the Christian Orthodox (in those days the 'Orthodox' included the Roman Pope as well) Bishops. However, due to a number of factors, it became clear that the Pope of Rome was starting to see himself as being rather too important. Eventually, the Roman Pope changed the Nicene Creed (the central statement of Christian belief), and then excommunicated the Eastern Church for not following suit. He hadn't even discussed it with the Eastern Church. The Orthodox Church had never seen any one man as having dictatorial powers, and so it could not accept the concept of the Roman Pope being able to decree articles of faith. Since then, most of the Roman Catholic innovations have come relatively recently (especially in the 19th century), as new ideas such as Purgatory, the immaculate conception of Mary, and various others, have crept in.

Essentially, the Roman Catholics are Orthodox who got a bit ahead of themselves and split off from the Orthodox communion. That's a controversial statement, but historically speaking, it's true.

[Black Francis]

A point worth bearing in mind;

The Papal legates (ambassidors) that actually issued the bull of excommunication upon the Greek half of the Church had no authority. The Church was "between Popes". Their authority had expired with the death of the last Pope and so the Papal bull was null and void.

Reading this thread really drives home to me (as a Roman Catholic) how similar we are and what an affront to God the schism is. If someone were to have asked me to explain Catholicism I could almost just cut and paste some of the above posts. Especially the section about protestants claiming to be "saved". I always harangue them and tell them to not be so damn presumptuous. lol

IMO We are of the same Apostolic Church despite our differences.

I do however believe that the Pope is primus inter pares as the successor of St Peter.

Great thread.

[Dunecat]

I like to swear. Not say anyone's name in vain, but say nonsense words like the "f", "s", and "d" words. I don't literally mean some of their definitions- I mean, I think it's healthier to take out your anger on taboo words rather than resorting to violence.

I'm not going to reject Christianity because "swearing" is wrong, of course, but I do do it alot, so obviously it's quite relevant, and a good thing to be aware of.

Honestly it's habit (family, LONG story...), so if it's necessary of course I'll break it, but it would be a hard and difficult thing to do, especially if I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just explaining my nature. But I digress...

ANYWAY, this whole Orthodox thing is growing on me. I don't want to sound like I want to water it down at all, I just want to be open and forthright about things. So it might be a little uncomfortable or disagreeable, but I'm doing it so I can get the best understanding possible. That's all.

Before you know, I'll be recinding my membership in S.I.N. (to which I just applied 4 days ago).

Hey, you never know.

[Hells Bells]

I am also an athiest, but raised catholic. Personally if it werent for science's clear proof that god didnt exist, id probably have been a monk. That is a warrior monk. However i dont kid myself on these things, but would still prefer my nation to be culturally a christian one.

Orthodox christians are our brothers and i was taught in school that they still went to heaven like regular people because they were separated by schism rather than by outright heresy. Thus the existence of orthodox christians nullifies the need for protestant religions because you have all you need right there. however i was taught that this was a temporary measure, we were going to try to reconcile with them and have been trying for centuries.

personally i have come to view orthodox christianity as being very cool and pristine. They also have the legitimacy that comes from having been round since the beginning.

[therussian]

I would think that the stigma against swearing is more of a moral thing, as opposed to breaking any religious rules.



By the way, half of the whole Orthodox experience is actually seeing a mass taking place. Especially in a Russian Orthodox church, tis amazing

[Dunecat]

Well, I think there's a Serbian Orthodox church 20 mins from me, I think I'll go there this following Sunday... The nearest one that's just orthodox (I guess) is 30 mins.

What's the difference, and, which one should I go too?

P.S.- Is describing small incriments of distance in units of time a universal thing, or just a northeastern-ohio thing?

[therussian]

Well, I think there's a Serbian Orthodox church 20 mins from me, I think I'll go there this following Sunday... The nearest one that's just orthodox (I guess) is 30 mins.

What's the difference, and, which one should I go too?

P.S.- Is describing small incriments of distance in units of time a universal thing, or just a northeastern-ohio thing?

Just orthodox? As in, Greek Orthodox? Eh, I don't really know. Go to both is the simplest answer.



PS. No, I do it a lot to, and I live in NC.

[SickBoy13]

Well, the whole Orthodox faith was excommunicated in 1054, but the Armenian Orthodox church was condemned (not excommunicated for the Pope thought we'd follow suite sooner or later) for our not accepting the Council of Chaldea. The reason, is in fact, quite stupid: we were battling the Persians so we could stay Christian and not convert to Zoarastriansim, thus, we could not send a representative to the council. Yes, stupid, that is why we are called monophysites (I personally don't like the word, as I stated earlier) which the Pope call heresy.
The Catholic John Paul II was very progressive and met with many Patriarchs including the Patriarchs of Killikia and Armenia, but sadly, he passed on. Benedict will soon revert to condemning us, in my opinion.
Comparing the two, I find the Orthodoxy much more spiritual, more mystical, there is more of an intangible element, but that could be my bias.

[therussian]

Yes, Orthodoxy definitely is the more mystical of the three branches of Christianity.

[Sétanta]

Well, I am a member of the Latin Rite of the Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church founded by Jesus during His Ministry on Earth (in the vernacular: Roman Catholic). I always thought the schism was, and is, stupid, and indeed, every Priest I have ever spoken with agrees. The Eastern Orthodox Churches are our brothers in Christ, there are differences of course, but every family has their differences (God is the Father and Mother of the Family and the Western Church and Eastern Church are the fraternal twin brothers. They don't look like each other, they don't read each others thoughts, but they are twins nevertheless).

I am glad that the His Holiness the Pope and His Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinope are working to restore the split in the true Church. I hope some sort of formal reunification takes place soon.

[Hells Bells]

I am glad that the His Holiness the Pope and His Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinope are working to restore the split in the true Church. I hope some sort of formal reunification takes place soon.

i heard somewhere that the turks were forbidding new orthodox preists to be trained so the pool of men to go into the patriarchy of constantinople dwindles as they age. I heard this was causing a major crisis.
what do you orthodox christians have to say about this?

[RusskiSoldat]

I found that the Russian Orthodox Church is the only one I can respect, and as such have decided to be baptized this Summer.
The lack of reform councils and politics in church affairs (it has always been intertwined with the state and as such has managed to steal clear of political decisions in return for supporting the then current regime).

[Zenith Darksea]

As for which Orthodox Church you should go to, there is no real theological difference. Serbian, Greek, Russian, Syrian etc. are all Orthodox, so it doesn't matter which you choose (hopefully one day we'll be able to say that we're members of the 'British' Orthodox Church or the 'American' Orthodox Church etc.). There are some practical considerations of course - you might like to find a church that has its services predominantly in the English language, or you might decide that you prefer the sound of Byzantine chant to the sound of Slavonic hymns. You know the sort of thing. The differences between the national churches are purely cultural; the key thing is finding a community that you can fit in with (this is very important, as community spirit among Orthodox Christians has always been strong), so try one or two churches, to see where you fit in best. Also, you might prefer talking to one priest rather than other. See what appeals to you the most.

Now, as for swearing, I'm Orthodox, and I swear from time to time. We shouldn't really swear, as part of the point of Orthodoxy is overcoming the anger that makes us swear. But as long as you don't do it in Church, and don't swear using God's name, I wouldn't worry too much at first.

One thing that I really must highlight though - Christianity in general requires the breaking of a lot of habits, and its not easy. Orthodoxy isn't something to choose if you're not prepared to put some effort in. For instance, going to confession and consulting with your spiritual father can be very hard the first couple of times. However, you will (I guarantee it) ultimately find a reward.


@Xiahou
Yes, the Turks are extremely restrictive when it comes to Christianity. It's a real problem, and one of the things that Patriarch Bartholomew has done really well is to try and manage the enormous amount of diplomacy that's required in Turkey just to survive on a daily basis.

[therussian]

One thing that I really must highlight though - Christianity in general requires the breaking of a lot of habits, and its not easy. Orthodoxy isn't something to choose if you're not prepared to put some effort in. For instance, going to confession and consulting with your spiritual father can be very hard the first couple of times. However, you will (I guarantee it) ultimately find a reward.

Wait, do the orthodox Orthodox have seperate confession like in the Catholic church?


Because in the Armenian Church we have public confession right before the communion is given.

[Dunecat]

You know, it's funny. Rather, I'm funny. I was under the impression that I would never be a theist again- that I would never have that sort of outlook.



But I do. And that's no small feat, to be sure. I've been an atheist my whole life, even as a child. I remember when I was 7, in my neighbor's van, staring out the window, contemplating eternity and the human perspective. I was in the second grade. Obviously, my conclusion was that those things were silly, and generally I reenforced that worldview for a good decade.



I've been walking on air the past 2 days. That's how I knew- and know- that I actually had faith. I was so excited to tell everyone I knew about what I had learned, about the good news. And it really is. But do not think me shallow for being influenced and converted from a message board... I have been searching for a definitive answer the majority of my life. So this thread was, of course, merely a tip of the iceberg, a view into a larger picture. Although this thread has helped me greatly, I wouldn't give you guys all the credit .

I kept expecting God to prove himself to me. Now I'm not sure it was him that had all the problems...



Yup.