Are gay people mentally deficient?

[Denny Crane!]

I've started this one as a new topic since it doesn't appear to have a topic of its own. I suspect many have already gone over this but for the benefit of one or two I think it is worth discussion.

A claim has been laid that gay people are mentally deficient. This implies a difference in brain chemistry which I think there may be circumstantial scientific evidence for changes in harmones it is not a subject I am greatly familiar with but intend to be over the course of this topic. Does this or any other form of brain chemical differences constitute a defficiency? What does that mean?

Defficient:

The quality or condition of being deficient; incompleteness or inadequacy.


A lack or shortage, especially of something essential to health; an insufficiency: a nutritional deficiency

Lets rule out that second one if no one disagrees.

Incomplete, well difference does not imply incomplete. Inadequate, well can someone supply that information?

Peter

[Erich von Manstein]

Yikes...that's a hot button topic. I understand what your point is, but phrased like that it just sounds bad. Based on your definition (which I view as a fair one) quite a few, if not the bulk, of people qualify. My seretonin levels drop during the winter since my body stops absorbing as much sunlight. Medically speaking, that results in a chemical deficiency of the brain on my part, which under your definition could be interpreted as a mental deficiency. And while various people may disagree :p, I don't think I'm that bad.

Do they experience a chemical abnormality in the brain? Possibly - I haven't seen the evidence and I certainly don't have any medical training. Deficiency implies that there is a standard level required for proper functioning and those who don't meet that standard level no longer properly function, sort of like a vitamin deficiency. I may not understand their lifestyle, but I seriously doubt all homosexuals are suffering from a chemical deficiency. Imbalance or abnormality possibly (and who doesn't at some point in life?), but our homosexual colleagues on this site don't appear to be suffering from any sort of chemical deficiency.

[Denny Crane!]

Yikes...that's a hot button topic. I understand what your point is, but phrased like that it just sounds bad. Based on your definition (which I view as a fair one) quite a few, if not the bulk, of people qualify. My seretonin levels drop during the winter since my body stops absorbing as much sunlight. Medically speaking, that results in a chemical deficiency of the brain on my part, which under your definition could be interpreted as a mental deficiency. And while various people may disagree :p, I don't think I'm that bad.

Do they experience a chemical abnormality in the brain? Possibly - I haven't seen the evidence and I certainly don't have any medical training. Deficiency implies that there is a standard level required for proper functioning and those who don't meet that standard level no longer properly function, sort of like a vitamin deficiency. I may not understand their lifestyle, but I seriously doubt all homosexuals are suffering from a chemical deficiency. Imbalance or abnormality possibly (and who doesn't at some point in life?), but our homosexual colleagues on this site don't appear to be suffering from any sort of chemical deficiency.

Nothing which in any way impairs them from normal living, a perfectly balanced psyche and suggests that the causes of homosexuality lie elsewhere and not in this "mental condition"

I agree totally. Loaded question spoken from a devils advocate position sorry. I would appreciate some opposing points of view though.

Peter

[Gaius Baltar]

There is some evidance that in gay men, cells in a region of the hypothalamus (INAH3, "Instetistial Nucleus of the Anterior Hypothalamus") are different from "normal" men. In "normal" or straight" men, this cell group is often times 2x larger than in women, and 2x to 3x times larger than in "gay" men.

Researchers often point to this cell area as being responsible for sexual behaviuor, but that is speculative, at best.

However, since the hypothalamus is an intrecal part of the endocrine and limbic system, this area is receiving alot of attention.

[imb39]

Just to clarify - Seneca spoke to me about this topic. It came up from a discussion in the 'Pit.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Assuming that Homo-sexuality is indeed not choice, as so many claim... then yes. They are clearly the victims of a mental problem. Weither or not it's bad, is up to the gay guy. Unless, of course it is otherwise, a choice.

Alot of gay people want to have they're cake and eat it too. "I'm mentaly prone to being gay, but that doesn't mean I have a mental problem."

Uh, yes it does.

[Fabolous]

Alot of gay people want to have they're cake and eat it too. "I'm mentaly prone to being gay, but that doesn't mean I have a mental problem."

Uh, yes it does.

Is "problem" the right word? Problem implies that it is a negative thing, which I think you will find a number of people disagree with (which isn't to say that because people believe it is ok that is really is ok... thats a whole other issue). Certainly, mental issue, or whatever. But classifying being gay as a problem... thats quite the statement to make.

Anyways, mentally deficient I think goes too far (as it probably is intended to... much snappier title). As said in the opening post "difference does not imply incomplete."

[Tom Paine]

Assuming that Homo-sexuality is indeed not choice, as so many claim... then yes. They are clearly the victims of a mental problem. Weither or not it's bad, is up to the gay guy. Unless, of course it is otherwise, a choice.

Alot of gay people want to have they're cake and eat it too. "I'm mentaly prone to being gay, but that doesn't mean I have a mental problem."

Uh, yes it does.

Why? Why is it a problem, ie

1. a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome: they have financial problems | the problem of ageism in Hollywood.

• a thing that is difficult to achieve: motivation of staff can also be a problem.
2. (Physics & Mathematics) an inquiry starting from given conditions to investigate or demonstrate a fact, result, or law.

• (Geometry) a proposition in which something has to be constructed. Compare with theorem. • (in chess) an arrangement of pieces in which the solver has to achieve a specified result.

"problem noun" The Oxford Dictionary of English (revised edition). Ed. Catherine Soanes and Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2005. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. Manchester Grammar School. 1 March 2007 <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t140.e61765>

So.... how, pray, is homosexuality something harmful or unwelcome for those who accept their homosexuality, and how does it need to be dealt with and overcome, in the majority of the cases? Please, I'm all ears.

[Ummon]

I've started this one as a new topic since it doesn't appear to have a topic of its own. I suspect many have already gone over this but for the benefit of one or two I think it is worth discussion.

A claim has been laid that gay people are mentally deficient. This implies a difference in brain chemistry which I think there may be circumstantial scientific evidence for changes in harmones it is not a subject I am greatly familiar with but intend to be over the course of this topic. Does this or any other form of brain chemical differences constitute a defficiency? What does that mean?

Defficient:

The quality or condition of being deficient; incompleteness or inadequacy.


A lack or shortage, especially of something essential to health; an insufficiency: a nutritional deficiency

Lets rule out that second one if no one disagrees.

Incomplete, well difference does not imply incomplete. Inadequate, well can someone supply that information?

Peter

There is merely a difference, not a deficiency. Overall, I also think the whole argument is impossible to tackle seriously.

You ask me if I find homosexuality vulgarly exibited in a street during Gay pride pleasant, and I can clearly answer no without problem.

You ask me if there is scientific evidence that a personal preference is in truth a deficiency... I will answer this way, potentially a deficiency or a boon like everything human.

The real problem with homosexuality today is not its nature, but its use as a scapegoat, or a flag.

Homosexuals are human beings. All human beings differ, in terms of cognitive and emotional abilities. Point.

[Tom Paine]

"Potentially a deficiency or a boon"? Yes, but I'm not sure that answers the question... the whole point of your post in terms of the topic is on the first line!

Oh.. and when we are used as scapegoats, we'll raise the flag, and push out the boat (well, we all know about the proclivities of sailors eh? )

[Ummon]

"Potentially a deficiency or a boon"? Yes, but I'm not sure that answers the question... the whole point of your post in terms of the topic is on the first line!

Exactly as I meant it to be.

Oh.. and when we are used as scapegoats, we'll raise the flag, and push out the boat (well, we all know about the proclivities of sailors eh? )

If you are used as a scapegoat, paradoxically as it may seem, the wisest strategy is not to raise any flag. The more you raise the flag, the more you qualify as a group, and thus psychologically, the more you are discriminated in return.

[the Black Prince]

deficient?


the statistics show that gay teens achieve better than their straight counterparts academically but suffer socially and are more at risk of committing suicide, possibly due to attitudes encouraged by topics such as this


being deficient implies there is a problem, that something is lacking
intellectually, thats absurd to suggest. i'll give myself and ozymandias as case in point.

i'm not sure how else you mean deficient.
i'm perfectly capable of doing everything a straight man can, including having sex with a woman.

what will you be suggesting next, that black men are physically deficient?

being different is not the same as being deficient.

[Tom Paine]

tBP, I advise you read the whole topic before posting something like that... Seneca was responding to a post made in the Homosexuality thread claiming homosexuality was a mental deficiency, in the aim of getting mature discussion on it. Emotionally charged responses such as your own without looking at the nature of the discussion don't help that at all.

[Tom Paine]

The problem is we are neccessarily and obviously a group. The existence of the word homosexual makes us a gruop. The very characteristic which marks us as different is, while concealable, better unconcealed for one's own mental health. We are neccessarily noticed, and I'd rather put pressure on people not to discriminate than to simply accept it.

[Ummon]

The problem is we are neccessarily and obviously a group.

Why? I don't feel a "straight", or Italian, I feel a human being.

The existence of the word homosexual makes us a gruop.

And the existance of the word hazel makes hazel-haired people a group?

The very characteristic which marks us as different is, while concealable, better unconcealed for one's own mental health. We are neccessarily noticed, and I'd rather put pressure on people not to discriminate than to simply accept it.

This pertains your personal and private being, not something public. The more you make it public, the more the group becomes salient in perception for any observer (over the individual), and the more this automatically causes discrimination.

[Tom Paine]

Why? I don't feel a "straight", or Italian, I feel a human being.

But no-one tries to make straght people a group, and in the right situation you would feel like an Italian; to give an example of a citizen of the world, Paine stopped feeling such when groupings mattered.

And the existance of the word hazel makes hazel-haired people a group?

It makes them a group, yes. It does not neccessarily make them a coherent group, but then there's no external pressure on them.

This pertains your personal and private being, not something public. The more you make it public, the more the group becomes salient in perception for any observer (over the individual), and the more this automatically causes discrimination.

But homosexuals were originally jailed for it, and then given hormonal treatments; its taken being very public, as with racism, to remove the discrimination. Therein lies the flaw in your argument. If we shut up, we can't ask for anything.

[Ummon]

But no-one tries to make straght people a group, and in the right situation you would feel like an Italian; to give an example of a citizen of the world, Paine stopped feeling such when groupings mattered.

I feel less Italian than Human, actually. Probably, Italian is the word which least describes me.

If you let the pressure condition you, you start a process which then leads to complementary schismogenesis, as described by Watzlawick. A situation of conflict where everyone attributes the guilt to the other side. Which is what is happening.

It makes them a group, yes. It does not neccessarily make them a coherent group, but then there's no external pressure on them.

A class in logical terms, not a group, which is a social or sociological cathegory.

But homosexuals were originally jailed for it, and then given hormonal treatments; its taken being very public, as with racism, to remove the discrimination. Therein lies the flaw in your argument. If we shut up, we can't ask for anything.

The mistakes of others do not justify further (if undoubtedly a lot lesser) mistakes.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

.... how, pray, is homosexuality something harmful or unwelcome for those who accept their homosexuality, and how does it need to be dealt with and overcome, in the majority of the cases? Please, I'm all ears

I'm allready late for class by 3 minutes so I'll keep this VERY short and to the point and hopefully be able to reply with more later.

I'm sure some mentaly "retarded" people are perfectly happy with themselves and see themselves as "just special" as well. They don't see a need to change either.

[Denny Crane!]

I'm allready late for class by 3 minutes so I'll keep this VERY short and to the point and hopefully be able to reply with more later.

I'm sure some mentaly "retarded" people are perfectly happy with themselves and see themselves as "just special" as well. They don't see a need to change either.

So far I am seeing little evidence for your opinion that they are mentally deficient though I realise you have had little time.

I would suggest though that because they are different and it seems strange to you that you have immediatly taken that to mean that there is something wrong with them. Since homosexuality is something that occurs naturally, and those people have equal capabilities to either excel or fail intellectually that sexual choice has nothing whatsoever to do with cognitive ability nor personal function.

Perhaps if we extrapolated where you think they are deficient?

Peter

[the Black Prince]

and yet only be creating and maintaining a gay identity and by engaging in identity politics are we able to achieve recognition and equality that institutionalised religious discrimination has prevented us from having.

previous attempts, before the emergence of identity politics and minoritisation prior to the more recent approach exemplified by Queer Theory, can be found in gay activism, and lesbian feminism and achieved nothing at all. by changing and approach and moving along the minority group line, a great deal has been achieved in normalising and equalising relations.


by not acting in this manner, already institutionalised attitudes towards homosexuality (post-Sexology) and Buggery/Sodomy (pre-Sexology) would still prevail today, activities engaged in by such people in the course of normal Queer sexual relations would be criminal offences and people who were openly known to Queer identify would be socially outlawed.


the only way to avoid this is to return society to a pre-sexology position in which there is no distinction between homosexual and heterosexual, but at the same time maintain a more modern viewpoint about the legitimacy of what are now termed to be homosexual actions.

in other words, return to an ancient greek attitude toward sexuality in which the preference of male female isn't the issue, but possibly without the greek differential between active/passive and the associated male passive shame.

obviously, such a position cannot be arranged merely by passing laws to that effect. it requires a change in the understanding of society, which laws may aid, but can never really cause.

therefore the only option left is to use identity politics to create a cross-sexualised equality in which it doesn't matter what ones sexuality is, because at all levels of society, there is equal treatment. couple this with enforcement through legal sanction of orientation hatred (both straight focus and gay focus) and you arive at a legally and socially constructed situation whereby the only difference between gay and straight once again is a matter of preference for boy/girl.

at that point alone has identity politics completed its goals and the necessity of waving the flag ceases to become so.
however, it also requires generational transition for effective completition, since for total social acceptance it requires in adulthood state a generation raised in a society in which the difference between gay/straight is simply the matter of preference alone.


@Ozy
the question posed by the topic is "Are gay people mentally deficient?" with the phrasing being indicative and even suggestive of negative constructs and yet providing no evidence of said construct at any point in the post

since there was no evidence provided to back up the obvious implied construct from the question, the only viable response is the obvious, no. its not for me to prove i'm mentally deficient, but for "you" (meaning the opposition) to prove otherwise. intellectually, the question is even somewhat moronic. i have 13 GCSEs including 4A*s and 5As, 4 A-levels including 3As and i'm incredibly likely to achieve a 2.1 degree in Law with Criminology. My GCSE results ranked me 7th in a yeargroup of 386, at the best school in the city, and placed me in the top 30 students in the city for that year. If i'm mentally deficient so is about half the forum.