On the Judgment of God.

[Feliks]

A creationist friend of mine and I recently got into a small debate. I expressed concern over the fact that he feels that God has the right to judge man. Working under the assumption that God exists, I said no, if anything, man has more of a right to judge God.

I believe my exact wording was:

"It is not the place of a creator to judge his creations, it is for he to be judged by his creations."

I supported my statement by saying that creations are a reflection upon their creator, thus a creator may be judged on the sum value of his creations. But once you get into the realm where the creations are sentient, as living embodiments of the creators vision they should apply the same ideals that they have been endowed with to their creator.

Thoughts?

[bdh]

I supported my statement by saying that creations are a reflection upon their creator, thus a creator may be judged on the sum value of his creations. But once you get into the realm where the creations are sentient, as living embodiments of the creators vision they should apply the same ideals that they have been endowed with to their creator.

The problem with the idea that you can judge God, though, is that it is an entire system of ethics independent of the physical world. Even if God murders babies, he can provide those murdered babies with metaphysical rewards that are eternal and worth more than their lives would have ever been, at no cost to God. If humans only lived on this Earth, well, you might be able to make a case. The justice of God largely depends on metaphysical/heavenly reward in order to be just by His standards, otherwise, he's contradicting himself. The metaphysical aspect of the God postulate throws a wrench into many kinds of these judgements.

[Feliks]

The problem with the idea that you can judge God, though, is that it is an entire system of ethics independent of the physical world. Even if God murders babies, he can provide those murdered babies with metaphysical rewards that are eternal and worth more than their lives would have ever been, at no cost to God. If humans only lived on this Earth, well, you might be able to make a case.

I don't know, if God truly thought that life on Earth wasn't worth anything, then why would he have even bothered to make Earth, or abhor killing in the first place. Sure he can "reward" the dead in the afterlife, but hasn't he deprived them from the ability to choose?

Now, still assuming God exists, I, and most people were born with an inherent respect for life, why would we be created with that trait if life was worthless?

[bdh]

Now, still assuming God exists, I, and most people were born with an inherent respect for life, why would we be created with that trait if life was worthless?

Its not worthless. Events in life determine the metaphysical justice. In terms of his own theoretical flaws though, God can correct any imbalance in the physical world using metaphysics, which, unfortenately, we don't get to benefit from until we die or he kills us.

[Feliks]

Its not worthless. Events in life determine the metaphysical justice. In terms of his own theoretical flaws though, God can correct any imbalance in the physical world using metaphysics, which, unfortenately, we don't get to benefit from until we die or he kills us.

Still, who is God to make the judgment on who will be rewarded in a metaphysical state and who will be punished?

[bdh]

Still, who is God to make the judgment on who will be rewarded in a metaphysical state and who will be punished?

Because he has the ability to justify his own mistakes metaphysically, if any, (using his supreme power) while we cannot, thus nescessitating that he judge us since we cannot rectify our mistakes and thus rely on his forgiveness to do so. That, and since he can fix his flaws, if any, he is the only one that is 'in the good' at all times.

[Gaidin]

God judges people and it's not injustice. But it's ok. Because they were warned. They weren't really bothering anyone, except for God, but that's a big no-no when you got a volatile wackjob omnipotent with an itchy trigger finger.

[Unchow]

The main basis behind why God can judge and we cant is the belief that God is the only one who truely knows what is just.

[Feliks]

The main basis behind why God can judge and we cant is the belief that God is the only one who truely knows what is just.

If he truly created us to know the difference between right and wrong I would say that we should know what is just in our most impartial state.

[bdh]

If he truly created us to know the difference between right and wrong I would say that we should know what is just in our most impartial state.

Biblically though, we did, until the Fall. In other religious systems though, there are a variety of other explanations.

[Unchow]

God did NOT make us so that we can truly know the difference between right and wrong. one of the big parts of living and learning is figureing out what is actually right and wrong. We wont ever know it all until we die, though. This is why God judges people, and people dont. (or shouldnt).

[Feliks]

God did NOT make us so that we can truly know the difference between right and wrong. one of the big parts of living and learning is figureing out what is actually right and wrong. We wont ever know it all until we die, though. This is why God judges people, and people dont. (or shouldnt).

People shouldn't judge people? All the justice systems in the world are biased off of the concept that man can be help accountable for his actions by his peers.

I am merely suggesting that the concept of man judging God is not so unreasonable to be dismissed our of hand

[Feliks]

Still, there is something about that explanation that I find... distasteful.

Lets go about this in a different way. Assuming the omnipotent God created us, fulling knowing what choices we would be faced with and make in the future, it can be argued, because he knew all this at the time of each person's creation, that he created the person to make the decisions that they would end up making. So, if someone was indeed flawed and made the decision to commit a grievous crime then God made them in a state in which they were capable of committing that crime. Then he judges them on it? That's entrapment.

And with that, I'm out for the night.

[bdh]

Still, there is something about that explanation that I find... distasteful.

Lets go about this in a different way. Assuming the omnipotent God created us, fulling knowing what choices we would be faced with and make in the future, it can be argued, because he knew all this at the time of each person's creation, that he created the person to make the decisions that they would end up making. So, if someone was indeed flawed and made the decision to commit a grievous crime then God made them in a state in which they were capable of committing that crime. Then he judges them on it? That's entrapment.

That has nothing to do with God's right to judge us though, thats the omniscience dilemma. There are all sorts of tricky justifications for it though, most of which are needlessly complicated, asinine, or possibly stupid.

The simplest one I can think of offhand is to deny the existence of time at creation, whereby, there would be no future to even know, so, really, God only created free wills with various potentials.

Instantaneity solves much of the omniscience problem.

Personally I think the metaphysical reimbursment plan is a weak argument.

Why? Theoretically, eternal reward makes up for any suffering here on earth. Likewise, so does eternal damnation.

[Unchow]

Why? Theoretically, eternal reward makes up for any suffering here on earth. Likewise, so does eternal damnation.

because that makes it sound like God's justice needs justifying. Yes, it happens, yes, it balances thigs out, but he does not go around saying "I think I'll kill you now. but its ok, because you'll get a coupon for something GREAT when you die!"

I think in this special case, there is enough evidence to judge God. If we are all his creations, than the sum off all his creations would provide an adequate measurement of his worth.

If that were so, then woulnt we all be able to come to the same judgement?

[bdh]

because that makes it sound like God's justice needs justifying. Yes, it happens, yes, it balances thigs out, but he does not go around saying "I think I'll kill you now. but its ok, because you'll get a coupon for something GREAT when you die!"

Well, it certainly makes him nonculpable for anything, therefore, it makes him a valid judge since he is without defect.

And he did do something like that (Biblically at least) with Job. Poor Job got shafted, that is, until God used his supreme power to rectify everything and make everything A-ok.

[Unchow]

ok. Job is my FAVORITE bible story of all time. and it was not just a random point of the finger by God on a bad day. Job learned a very valuable lession on the value of life in that story, and the fact that it was put into the bible means that we can all learn from it too. A lot of good came from that story.

[bdh]

ok. Job is my FAVORITE bible story of all time. and it was not just a random point of the finger by God on a bad day. Job learned a very valuable lession on the value of life in that story, and the fact that it was put into the bible means that we can all learn from it too. A lot of good came from that story.

Yep, and the good learned + Job's eventual restoration are both metaphysical reparations to the suffering he endured.

[LegionnaireX]

I find it funny that atheists argue against the possibility that God is "all good" when it suits them, and then argue against the same point when it suits them.

You cannot give human like qualities to God, nor by definition of God can humans truly understand his will. If God is perfect and infinite then we humans,who are finite and relatively ignorant, cannot possibly judge him.
If a God who breathed life into us in the first place, maintains it, and has given us the possibility of salvation, decides to kill a certain group of people who are we to believe that is "violent" or unjust. How can we judge the righteoussness of God? If God is of infinite wisdom and righteoussness chances are there was a perfect reason for his actions. Besides, if you buy into the afterlife then their "lives" aren't technically extinguished.

Most religious "paradoxes" purported by atheists are the result of ignorance mainly. If you are going to criticize biblical doctrine, you must first put it into context by taking into account the big picture. Most alledged paradoxes are just the result of nit-picking.

[Unchow]

You cannot give human like qualities to God, nor by definition of God can humans truly understand his will.

Why not? wernt we creating in His image? Or do you think that it simply means that God has two legs, two arms, etc?