Roman Army

[Turk]

Can someone give me links or tell me how the roman army was after the marian reforms??
because its strange and not enough for me when there are only 2 legionaries are recruitable in rtrpe


when are the marian reforms in rtrpe coming??

[KALI]

You could try Macedon M&N mod with adds 20 plus named legions, although the units still look the same or you could wait for then new release of Extended Realism mod which adds extra new models and skins plus 20-ish named legions.
In realty the legions of Marius, or Marius' mules as they were sometimes nicknamed were fairly box standard. Although Lorica squamata was used aswell as the Hamata, during the republic by some legions.

[Salvor Hardin]

Well, the Roman army after the Reforms was mainly formed of legionary units recruited in Italy, that formed the heavy infantry and a variable number of Auxilia, i.e. AOR and merc units in RTR, that supplied the missile, cavalry and light infantry troops.

The Marian Reforms in RTRPE take place when you build an Imperial Palace in any settlement in Italy other than Rome.

Hope this helps

[Ter. Catalonius Luciano]

In truth, the so-called "Marian Reforms" were not quite as drastic you might imagine and had very little to do with the actual kit of the individual legionary. Rather, the reform was a slow process of reforming the organization of the army itself into semi-autonomous units of cohorts, relegating the old maniple system of dividing the units by way of class (i.e. hastati, principes, and triarii). If you look at the way the modern United States Army is reforming into the modular Unit of Action plan in which the division is no longer the building-block of the Army, but rather the brigade, now a unit capable of sustained, independent operations, but at the same time capable of operations with other, similar units as an organic unit of the division.

The reasons for change are clear and have many parallels with the US Army system I just described. The major factor is the way wars were beginning to be fought. In the same way the US Army is engaged in many small conflicts rather than one or two large ones, following the Second Punic War, the Roman Army found itself engaged in conflicts in which entire legions were too unwieldy to carry out assigned tasks, and besides it would have been overkill, and given an Army's constant need for more and more soldiers, this is not necessarily a good thing. The best example of the use of cohorts as the center of operations comes in the conflicts waged in the mountains of the Iberian Peninsula wherein the legion was far too large a unit to maneuver and command and also too large to waste on engaging small, guerrilla-warfare tribes, such as the Numantine. In response to this, legionary commanders began to relinquish more and more command to their cohort commanders in order that they could deploy a cohort or two to a given location to carry out operations in that area.

Caius Marius is given credit for the reforms only because he is the most well-known of the generals to implement this technique. Indeed, his archrival, Sulla, carried out the same method of reform simultaneously. This idea that land-ownership was the primary change in the Army is really nonsense as it could have waited, compared to the change of central-unit.

[KALI]

Correct.

[KALI]

hmmm,
double post that was a wierd one.

[Maximus Lazero]

I believe the main thing that Marius did was that he did away with the class system. Whereas the Pre-Marian army had been divided into Velites, Hastati, Principes, Triarii, and Equites based on wealth and experience, Marius allowed ANYONE to join (I suppose with physical requirements and such). The poor/unemployed could join the army, and unlike the pre-Marian forces, they were now professionals, there to make a career out of the army, instead of going off to fight, then coming home. Their equipment was standardized (based on the principals), as was their pay.

Mainly though, I think it was the deposing of the class/land conscription system.

[Ter. Catalonius Luciano]

I believe the main thing that Marius did was that he did away with the class system. Whereas the Pre-Marian army had been divided into Velites, Hastati, Principes, Triarii, and Equites based on wealth and experience, Marius allowed ANYONE to join (I suppose with physical requirements and such). The poor/unemployed could join the army, and unlike the pre-Marian forces, they were now professionals, there to make a career out of the army, instead of going off to fight, then coming home. Their equipment was standardized (based on the principals), as was their pay.

Mainly though, I think it was the deposing of the class/land conscription system.

Actually, this is a misconception. The class distinction still existed, if only in the order of battle. The class distinction in Rome's societal structure had been done away with the same way people no longer voted by military centuries. But the military classes did still exist, although triarii were replaced in terminology by the well-known pili, such as in the rank of primus pilus (senior centurion in each legion). Velites were done away with, that's true, but they weren't really a class structure anyway, but rather the very poorest of any land and didn't necessarily have to be citizens to start with anyway--they were mere skirmishers ("cannon fodder"). In the same way the US Army keeps its only regimental numbers for the sake of history, the Roman Army kept its manipular system of class division in the Army. The accepted, though rather cryptic pattern goes that every cohort of an Imperial legion had something like two centuries of hastati (prior and posterior), two centuries of princeps (prior and posterior), and one to two centuries of pili (prior and posterior). The first cohort, though, usually only had a single pili century, commanded by the primus pilus, who also commanded the cohort.

Also, equites continued to exist as the equestrian order, which were the wealthy, non-senatorial class of Rome. By the time of Augustus, though, these families were essentially either absorbed into the senatorial class or simply decreased in status in comparison to their status during the Republic. They did not serve the same purpose as they did in the very early Republic as the so-called "knights" or cavalry of the army, replaced by auxilia in the Empire. Even so, persons of equestrian class who sought a military career were usually commissioned directly to centurio or, at times, directly to military tribune, normally stationed to command an auxilia unit such as, fittingly, an auxilia cavalry unit (sometimes called an alae).

Lastly, the equipment was in no way standardized. Helmet finds alone point to dozens, upon dozens of model in use at any one time: old "Montefortino" models, "Coolus", and "Gallic" and "Italic" models, not counting the dozens of models seen in the 2nd Century CE and onward to the "collapse" of the Western Empire. Further, lorica hamata (chain mail) was the standard since basically the Punic Wars, but this, by no means that there was a standard regulation on what model of hamata must be worn, much less what else one could wear with it. Some soldiers wore the Hellenistic greeves of Hoplite fame as late as the rule of Tiberius! But then not all soldiers did, either. And then there are the numerous models of lorica segmentata which arose at the turn of the millennium, and yet we know hamata continued to be used along side segmentata and perhaps past it into the relatively unarmored time of the Late Empire, starting about the last quarter of the 2nd Century CE. Alongside all of this we see the much adored lorica squamata and heavy lorica plumata, both of which served with distinction since the Mid/Late Republic until the time that armor essentially slipped off in use.

There was nothing radical or revolutionary about the so-called "Marian reforms" aside from the way the army was organized. One also has to get away from the idea of standardized kit and equipment since everything was hand made and not issued by a quarter master, and even when that happened much later in the Empire, NOTHING was standardized.

[Turk]

thx for the help
but my english isnt good enough

so it isnt good (or historical)to add some other legionaries for the romans after the marian reforms?

there is a promethean legions pack for candels mod
there are a early rep legio cohort and a late rep legio cohort the early means the slow changes by caius marius??