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    Lord Rahl's Avatar Behold the Beard
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    Icon4 If you don't agree with this man, you gotta think things over!

    Now I know it is a hard stance to take but I really believe it to be true.

    The House passed a non-binding resolution to which showed disapproval of a surge of troops to Iraq. This resolution, put forward by the despicable Delaware Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, both Democrats, and Sen. Chuck Hagel, a Nebraska Republican and potential presidential candidate, is only the beginning of what the Democrats and some idiot Republicans of their policy to "slow bleed" the military. They say they are for the troops and now they are saying they will pull funding. They whined about the troops not having enough armor and now once the military is supposed to get new armored transportation, they want to cut the funding for such a thing. They say that the troops want to leave. They say it is horrible in Iraq. Well, the troops really want to get their job done and there has been much progress in Iraq. They say one thing when they believe the other and they explain one thing when it needs to be explained otherwise.

    If Obama and Clinton are really for the troops then their actions speak differently. It is hard to know Obama's stance because he has hardly a record in the Senate at all and it is hard to know Clinton's stance because she rivals John Kerry in the flip-flop department. The Democrats aren't for the troops. They are for politics and poll numbers. They want to undeclare war when they have to constitutional right to do so. The Democrats are entitled to any opinion they want. They may believe that the troop surge won't work, that the war is unjustified and to pull out immediately, and they can put forward legislation to do so. However, they aren't doing that. Instead, they pass their non-binding resolution without giving any alternatives to the situation. Instead, they try to undermine the authority of the President, their hated George Bush.

    The Democrats have decided not to pursue the issue fairly or with any respect. They want to "slow bleed" our effort. They ask Bush to change policy, he does, they reject it outright, and now they wish to cripple the effort. They wish to take back every victory we've made and expose every defeat. They don't want anymore schools built. They don't want safe marketplaces. They don't want the mission, where over 3,000 brave men and women have died in, to succeed. There is no way they care about the troops. Every single action they make proves they don't. They would rather make Bush have a harder time waging the war. They would rather have the blame stay on him for any mistake, any setback in Iraq. There is no responsibility, no honor, and no respect in what they wish to do to the military. This war isn't Vietnam but the Democrats and their weak Republican followers are slowly making it look the same. Military success but political failure. That is what Vietnam was, and that is what those who are in favor of the non-binding resolution and the "slow bleed" policy are making this war. Given the time and the money our troops will complete their job. They will come home to their families and be proud of their work but the Democrats want them to come home now, their job incomplete, and Iraq left to ultimately decide its own fate.

    US Congressman Sam Johnson who serves in the 3rd District of Texas was a Vietnam War veteran. He was given time on the House floor to give his opinion on the non-binding resolution, which was later cowardly passed. I urge everyone to watch this video of his speech. And, I will say this again. If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American. If you against the opinions of this man then you don't support our troops. If you don't support the men and women in uniform when they are doing a difficult job in a country, trying to save lives, and kill terrorists who wish to kill us then you disgrace your country. You disgrace fathers, mothers, brothers, sons, daughters, and families. You disgrace the belief in freedom. If you disagree with Mr. Johnson, then you disapprove of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Without our boys and girls over there the Iraqis would have no chance of that. The mission in Iraq didn't just include Saddam and WMD's. It also included helping Iraq be better, be free.

    Watch the video here

    Thus concludes my rant. I might not have expressed my views as well as hoped in my heated little essay, so, take it easy fellas.
    Last edited by Lord Rahl; February 23, 2007 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Because the title was too harsh!

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    I'm in the agreein' with you man. The democrats don't give a dime for this nation, they're just bothered about sitting on their asses and grouching like liberal bahstahrds. 'Cos if you don't agree with our man, Mr. Sam, you're going straight to hell boy and the devil eat ya entrails.

    Actually, I agree with you though; the democrats seem all to willing to criticize, while doing little to pose any viable alternatives. Positive rep for the post, but you're coming down too strong on the "un-american" bit.

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Søren View Post
    I'm in the agreein' with you man. The democrats don't give a dime for this nation, they're just bothered about sitting on their asses and grouching like liberal bahstahrds. 'Cos if you don't agree with our man, Mr. Sam, you're going straight to hell boy and the devil eat ya entrails.

    Actually, I agree with you though; the democrats seem all to willing to criticize, while doing little to pose any viable alternatives. Positive rep for the post, but you're coming down too strong on the "un-american" bit.
    I know I'm coming down too strong, but hey, that is how people get emotional and that makes for some cool discussion. Personally, if I met someone who supported the non-binding resolution or the "slow bleed" policy I would have a great urge to smack my palms on their ears (if anyone wonders why I said that, doing what I said hurts like hell and can rupture your eardrums!).

    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA
    The democrats are doing the right thing by finally pulling us out of that mess. End of story.

    " It also included helping Iraq be better, be free. "

    In what world...?

    That wasnt even one of our goals until the first three things on our list had to be crossed off due to faulty intelligence and messed up planning on behalf of republicans everywhere.
    Pulling out is the worst option, if done at the wrong time. Now is the wrong time. Pulling out before the job is done is the wrong time. Now, it doesn't matter whether or not you disagree with the WMD idea. We are there. WMD's is soooooo 2+ years ago.

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    The democrats are doing the right thing by finally pulling us out of that mess. End of story.

    " It also included helping Iraq be better, be free. "

    In what world...?

    That wasnt even one of our goals until the first three things on our list had to be crossed off due to faulty intelligence and messed up planning on behalf of republicans everywhere.

    P.S. Joe Bidens plan of 3 iraqs is STILL the most sensible plan ive heard come out of anyone on this iraq thing.
    Last edited by RZZZA; February 22, 2007 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Our presence there is causing unrest and terrorism, while solving nothing. We are in a bees nest of theocrats, in a culture that we have little similar with. Our presence there is counterproductive to iraqi stability, we're baby sitting a civil war and we have been for quite some time now.

    I know republican think time is the magic key to solve every problenm, but precedent if anything has proven you guys wrong time after time...why should we believe you any longer? What prediction have you made thats actually come true?

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA View Post
    Our presence there is causing unrest and terrorism, while solving nothing.
    If you can give me conclusive evidence that your statement is entirely correct then I'll believe you, however, since it isn't entirely correct I have to say conclusively, you're wrong.

    We are in a bees nest of theocrats, in a culture that we have little similar with. Our presence there is counterproductive to iraqi stability, we're baby sitting a civil war and we have been for quite some time now.
    If that is true, can you provide me with an alternative that doesn't include losing the war, undermining presidential powers, or cutting funding for our troops who need it?

    I know republicans think time is the magic key to solve every problenm, but precedent if anything has proven you guys wrong time after time...why should we believe you any longer? What prediction have you made thats actually come true?
    Time is one aspect. Funding, proper planning, and cooperation from the Iraqis helps too. If the Democrats let there be any debate or provided any alternative plan for victory in Iraq then maybe I would at least respect them, but they don't. Saddam is out, there were democratic elections, we're building schools, securing areas, helping with rebuilding, etc. If you can't at least acknowledge those points then you're either ignorant or choose not to, which is foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balikedes
    I am a registered Dem and am currently awestruck by the incompetence of the Democratic leadership right now.
    Regardless of how we got there, we are there now and need to finish the job. The dems are taking their majority a little too far in trying to fulfill what they believe the will of the people is.
    I haven't heard that from a Democrat in a long time. Thank you! I know there are still real Democrats out there and not just socialists.

    If General Patraeus believes this will work they should listen to him. bottom line.
    What they should do is give the troop surge a chance, if Baghdad is not secure by the years end then we need to pull out. For bad or good, being there any longer will only keep our troops in harms way.[/quote]

    I think that this is the year where we will really see if we can get the mighty upper hand. We have the extra troops and a new battle plan. Unfortunately, this might also be the worst year for us because I know that if we step it up, so will the terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA
    Dont demonize this "pullin funding" thing too much, its a political move is all. Its the only way these guys can check the executive branch. They pull funding, president is forced to pull out. Its not really about the troops or being un-american, now is it?

    P.S. I dont know how sticking to the old plan ever got to be "American" and not doing what the republicans want is now "Un-american".

    Great PR machine they got.
    Then why don't they do it respectively and not sneakily? It is a political move that shows that the Democrats can't contemplate victory, that they don't really believe in the troops, and that they only care about themselves.

    And what is this talk about sticking to the old plan? I don't get it.

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA View Post
    Our presence there is causing unrest and terrorism, while solving nothing. We are in a bees nest of theocrats, in a culture that we have little similar with. Our presence there is counterproductive to iraqi stability, we're baby sitting a civil war and we have been for quite some time now.

    I know republican think time is the magic key to solve every problenm, but precedent if anything has proven you guys wrong time after time...why should we believe you any longer? What prediction have you made thats actually come true?
    Hmmm, so you agree it's hypocritical of the dems to piss and moan about not enough troops, not enough money, not enough toliet paper.....and then vote no?

    Either you do or you don't.



    Marshall and Taylor earned a few points in my book. The only Dems I know of who had the balls to do what's right for American soldiers. I can't wait till there are systematic beatings of those who voted no by returning soldiers.

    Our presence there is causing unrest and terrorism, while solving nothing.
    Which would explain why they are killing each other more often than us. Oh wait, that's right....it doesn't do that at all. Imagine if we left and all there was as an authority was an Iraqi police/army force that's not been trained enough to take over. But yeah, whatever....if it's a bloodbath you want, we'll just leave.
    Not willing to do what is best for the Iraqi people at the expense of the American tax payer = "Un-American".
    How is it just for the Iraqi people? Surely you're not suggesting our troops would not suffer horribly from this.

    The sooner we get out of there, the better. By pulling funds, it is a way of forcing the president to do so. Perhaps a bit underhanded way of doing it (nothing the Republicans don't know about), but better than having no plan at all.
    Uh, I'm VERY disapointed that YOU hold this view. Perhaps you'd like to tell that to the Americans who are killed because of this action. Get thee behind me....

    Spectacular PR machine, but I think the "Cut and Run", "emboldens the enemy" kind of talk is wearing thin on the American people. We're all sick of being told how to be an American.
    Do me, and the rest of red-blooded america a favor and move to Canada. You guys are always talking about it.
    I wouldn't have suggested it before, because prior to this action, I thought we were on the same side. Aparently, by defending this, do beleive you don't give a damn about our Troops. You don't give a damn about Iraq. You don't give a damn about anything but YOUR wellbeing. Canada is nice this time of year.
    Last edited by Ó Cathasaigh; February 22, 2007 at 03:07 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    We do need to pull out. You can say wait till we get the job done, but im sorry that will simply not happen. Maybe with 200,000 more troops, but even then thats rather ify.

    I agree that the Democrats means of pulling out is a little underhanded, but then again Politics is underhanded. You got to play the game by the rules.

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Corporal_Hicks View Post
    How is it just for the Iraqi people? Surely you're not suggesting our troops would not suffer horribly from this.
    Huh? how would American soldiers (or American in general) suffer from pulling out?
    Perhaps some soldiers would loose their job, but I'm sure they'll find a new job quickly enough because America has very low unemployment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    what happens when those who didn't support the war get drafted also?
    They would be forced to serve, obviously.
    That's what the draft is.
    If they refuse they will be send to jail, or even executed.

    But they don't all have to carry guns, they can do construction work too.

    Sometimes your loyalty to your country must go above your personal freedom.
    Don't American school kids have to pledge their allegiance to their flag and the leadership for which it stands?
    You think that pledge is void once they are 16 years old and drafted to do their duty?



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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    They would be forced to serve, obviously.
    doesn't seem too fair to me. good thing we have conscientious objection.

    Sometimes your loyalty to your country must go above your personal freedom.
    Don't American school kids have to pledge their allegiance to their flag and the leadership for which it stands?
    You think that pledge is void once they are 16 years old and drafted to do their duty?
    I'm loyal to my country, not the government (they are two separate things) The pledge is to the country, not the government. And it's 18, not 16.
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    doesn't seem too fair to me.
    Fair to the American minority who opposed the war, or fair to the Iraqi's who are getting killed by the thousand because of the war?

    The pledge is to the country, not the government.
    "The Republic for which it stands".
    The Republic is the government, not the country.

    And the flag is the US government's flag, any new government succeeding it would have a different flag.
    To compare: the USSR, modern Russia, and the old Russian empire all had different flags.
    The South also had a different flag during the civil war.



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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Corporal_Hicks View Post
    Do me, and the rest of red-blooded america a favor and move to Canada. You guys are always talking about it.
    I wouldn't have suggested it before, because prior to this action, I thought we were on the same side. Aparently, by defending this, do beleive you don't give a damn about our Troops. You don't give a damn about Iraq. You don't give a damn about anything but YOUR wellbeing. Canada is nice this time of year.
    Corporal Hicks - Sorry for getting back to you so late - so now to it..
    I am very dissapointed in you. Did you not see my previous post? I do not like to be told what is and what is not patriotic, also, gauging from any one of your posts, I don't think you do. Please review my previous:

    "If General Patraeus believes this will work they should listen to him. bottom line. What they should do is give the troop surge a chance, if Baghdad is not secure by the years end then we need to pull out. For bad or good, being there any longer will only keep our troops in harms way."
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    I am a registered Dem and am currently awestruck by the incompetence of the Democratic leadership right now.
    Regardless of how we got there, we are there now and need to finish the job. The dems are taking their majority a little too far in trying to fulfill what they believe the will of the people is.

    If General Patraeus believes this will work they should listen to him. bottom line.
    What they should do is give the troop surge a chance, if Baghdad is not secure by the years end then we need to pull out. For bad or good, being there any longer will only keep our troops in harms way.
    Last edited by Balikedes; February 22, 2007 at 01:43 PM. Reason: forgot
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Dont demonize this "pullin funding" thing too much, its a political move is all. Its the only way these guys can check the executive branch. They pull funding, president is forced to pull out. Its not really about the troops or being un-american, now is it?

    P.S. I dont know how sticking to the old plan ever got to be "American" and not doing what the republicans want is now "Un-american".

    Great PR machine they got.
    Last edited by RZZZA; February 22, 2007 at 01:48 PM.

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    Balikedes's Avatar Time to Rock
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA View Post
    P.S. I dont know how sticking to the old plan ever got to be "American" and not doing what the republicans want is now "Un-american".

    Great PR machine they got.
    Spectacular PR machine, but I think the "Cut and Run", "emboldens the enemy" kind of talk is wearing thin on the American people. We're all sick of being told how to be an American.
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    The sooner we get out of there, the better. By pulling funds, it is a way of forcing the president to do so. Perhaps a bit underhanded way of doing it (nothing the Republicans don't know about), but better than having no plan at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Rahl
    Then why don't they do it respectively and not sneakily?
    They tried, and our bullheaded president instead stated he would have a "surge" of troops. So he made them resort to this.

    It is a political move that shows that the Democrats can't contemplate victory, that they don't really believe in the troops, and that they only care about themselves.
    Because victory is beyond our grasp. It's only a shame it took the politicians this long to realize.
    Last edited by Last Roman; February 22, 2007 at 02:36 PM.
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Pulling funds is the wrong thing to do, but that's all I can say.

    To respond to what a guy just said on TV, certainly keeping troops on Iraq is not showing that you care for them (well, with 1000+ deaths a year plus a rather large amount of injuries), its just showing that you believe you can be successful.
    The Democrats dont seem to believe it will work, which is fine, but cutting funding would just make it worse for the troops stuck there. THAT would show that you don't care for the troops.

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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    The sooner we get out of there, the better. By pulling funds, it is a way of forcing the president to do so. Perhaps a bit underhanded way of doing it (nothing the Republicans don't know about), but better than having no plan at all.
    Irresponsible.

    They tried, and our bullheaded president instead stated he would have a "surge" of troops. So he made them resort to this.
    That is his constitutional right.

    Because victory is beyond our grasp. It's only a shame it took the politicians this long to realize.
    Or the simple fact that you either don't know any achievements or choose to acknowledge. If I trusted the Dems and the news to tell me how the war is going I would have pulled out years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento
    Take a deep breath Rahl. Feel better now. I think you might know I am a Texan, and what my views are on the war in Iraq. You might also remember I was the closest TWC member to predicting the final electoral college count of the last election.
    *breathes* *coughs*

    That being said, I think it is important for the Iraqi's to know there is a timetable, and they have only an limited amount of time to get their act together before the blood of American sons and daughters won't be spilled on their god forsaken country anymore. This is necessary to get them off their tired asses and fix their own damn country. IMO, unless they see there is a timetable, they will continue to worry about their petty lil religeous differences more than the well being of their nation.
    I think so as well. The Iraqis have to pick up some more slack. I've heard reports that many local Iraqis are forcing out terrorists in their areas. I'm not sure that a visible timetable would be best though. I'm sure the US and Iraqi government have some sort of an idea though.

    Even tho I feel the Democrat led resolution's effect will not be a bad thing, I do feel their motives are most certainly more for political benefits than the well being of the American military.
    Yes, and that is a bad thing. When our soldier's lives are in our hands we shouldn't play politics.

    So you see, even a true blue American, supportive of our efforts to topple the despot and create a country where Shia, Sunni, Kurd, Jews, and Christians can all live nice peaceful lives, like they do if they live in America,
    after a length of time now exceeding that of American involvement in WWII, can see it is necessary to set some limits as to our involvement.

    Be well my friend.
    I agree as well. I just want it done the right way and the Dems aren't doing that, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    So to get it straight:
    Not willing to do what is best for the Iraqi people at the expense of the American tax payer = "Un-American".
    I'm afraid that is subject to opinion. I don't think letting Iraq become a terrorist state is what is best for the Iraqi people.

    Guess I am "ultra-American" because I'm in favor of the draft, and sending at least half a million additional American troops and civilians to Iraq to solve the mess they caused.
    Oh, you make me shiver with excitement, that is so American.

    You can even call me a patriot because I honestly don't even care what the cost (in terms of money and lives) will be to America, just as long as they get the job done so Iraqi's can have a normal life again.
    Yes, I because that is exactly what I said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozy!
    As you may have gathered I don't support the Dems in this at all. Condemn the war all you want, but pulling out now is moronic in all respects, especially on the basis of "ideals"... let's pull out because we don't like killing people although pulling out will see all out civil war boil over...
    Oh my, Ozy! We agree on something!

    So because the American public does not support a half baked plan that puts more troops in danger where UnAmerican. If anyone is not a patriot or Unamerican it is this administration that has completely FUBARed the entire operation.
    Do you know what the plan is or do you just regurgitate what you see and hear on the news? Come back to me when you know both sides of the story.

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Rahl View Post
    Irresponsible.
    so was this war, but here we are

    That is his constitutional right.
    and it is congress' right to pull funding

    Or the simple fact that you either don't know any achievements or choose to acknowledge. If I trusted the Dems and the news to tell me how the war is going I would have pulled out years ago.
    I have heard a few of soldiers who've been to Iraq (they come into classes to give speeches) some say we can still win this, but the majority say there's no chance.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: If you don't agree with this man, you're un-American

    Take a deep breath Rahl. Feel better now. I think you might know I am a Texan, and what my views are on the war in Iraq. You might also remember I was the closest TWC member to predicting the final electoral college count of the last election.

    That being said, I think it is important for the Iraqi's to know there is a timetable, and they have only an limited amount of time to get their act together before the blood of American sons and daughters won't be spilled on their god forsaken country anymore. This is necessary to get them off their tired asses and fix their own damn country. IMO, unless they see there is a timetable, they will continue to worry about their petty lil religeous differences more than the well being of their nation.

    Even tho I feel the Democrat led resolution's effect will not be a bad thing, I do feel their motives are most certainly more for political benefits than the well being of the American military.

    So you see, even a true blue American, supportive of our efforts to topple the despot and create a country where Shia, Sunni, Kurd, Jews, and Christians can all live nice peaceful lives, like they do if they live in America,
    after a length of time now exceeding that of American involvement in WWII, can see it is necessary to set some limits as to our involvement.

    Be well my friend.
    "oooh a gypsy wind is blowing warm tonight, sky is starlit and the time is right. Now you're telling me you have to go...before you do there's something you should know." - Bob Seger

    Freedom is the distance between church and state.

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