TLR v1.9 Beta - Map / Faction Start Discussion

[tornnight]

Map / Faction Start Issues Only

[Lopus]

Just wondering, why was France chopped up into such a small state (although I've to admit, it seems more historically accurate, as generally, French kings only held a few central regions with fiercely independent noblemen holding the rest).

I love your repositioning of the Seljuks, unfortunately (in my game ... and yes, I am using toggle_fow to see what's happening around the map), the Fatamids seemed to be neutered. It's 1090 in my game, and everyone has acquired at least one new province, except for the Fatamids (who funny enough is the richest faction).

The Iberian peninsula could be cut by one more province to the northwest (Galicia), but not necessary, could the Spanish be moved out of the central city though (Toledo), this should be Almorahid at this point of time. Although maybe leave it rebel since the Iberian peninsula is too crowded as it is, not much room for growth.

I am having so much fun.

[tornnight]

France was chopped to try and make it more historically accurate. I made vassal provinces independent from the core. The HRE also doesn't have it's vassal provinces.

The fatamids seem to be slow to start. All my tests have shown that they get very powerful though. Let me know if that's not the case. The crusades often slow them down too.

Toledo was firmly in spanish hands in 1080 as far as I know. I don't have my medieval atlas with me, but I'm sure I checked that. It's true that there isn't much room for growth there. Thats why someone has to go. erhm moors

[weyland]

France was chopped to try and make it more historically accurate. I made vassal provinces independent from the core. The HRE also doesn't have it's vassal provinces.

The fatamids seem to be slow to start. All my tests have shown that they get very powerful though. Let me know if that's not the case. The crusades often slow them down too.

Toledo was firmly in spanish hands in 1080 as far as I know. I don't have my medieval atlas with me, but I'm sure I checked that. It's true that there isn't much room for growth there. Thats why someone has to go. erhm moors

Re: Fatimids (playing Venice H/H, 1.9 B4): about 30 turns in I joined a crusade against (rebel) Cairo. When my crusading army got to Egypt they held only Damieta and Alexandria (which I promptly seized.)

The Fatimids actually gave me quite a struggle. Christiano the Silver-Tongued besieged Damietta about three times but kept being driven off by a mixed force of cavalry and Nubian spearmen, as well as about five Fatimid generals. I actually had to give Cairo to the Pope b/c I didnt have the forces to defend it from a marauding Fatimid army (after destroying all the buildings of course); the Pope accepted it, but b/c the barracks were all destroyed he couldn't garrison it and eventually the city went over to rebels!

This is turning into an AAR, sorry. Meanwhile, a jihad had been called against Cairo about 25 turns ago and a MOORISH JIHADI ARMY marched all the way from Iberia to Egypt...through Europe! It actually passed right by Venice. (I do think it's kinda unrealistic that a Muslim army could march through ten medieval christian kingdoms and not get attacked...)

So as soon as I'd taken Damietta, and Cairo had gone to rebels, this Moorish army appears out of the Levant. It was looking awkward b/c I was allied to them. What would have happened if I'd held Cairo when they got there? Would they have broken the alliance? I tried to besiege Cairo so when the (allied) Moors arrived close by I could "force" them to aid me in the assault but my army was driven off; they besieged Cairo; I brought my army back to the siege; they assaulted, bringing me into the battle, and they took the city.

Naturally I attacked them two turns later. Stinkin' Moors!

Clearly I'm having a blast, can't wait to keep playing!

[tornnight]

AAR's are actually my favorite thing to read.
Plus often give invaluable information that I can use.

I'm not certain if that jihading army was considered a trespasser. The moors may have pissed off a bunch of factions marching through like that.

[Leuki]

Just wondering, why was France chopped up into such a small state (although I've to admit, it seems more historically accurate, as generally, French kings only held a few central regions with fiercely independent noblemen holding the rest).

I love your repositioning of the Seljuks, unfortunately (in my game ... and yes, I am using toggle_fow to see what's happening around the map), the Fatamids seemed to be neutered. It's 1090 in my game, and everyone has acquired at least one new province, except for the Fatamids (who funny enough is the richest faction).

The Iberian peninsula could be cut by one more province to the northwest (Galicia), but not necessary, could the Spanish be moved out of the central city though (Toledo), this should be Almorahid at this point of time. Although maybe leave it rebel since the Iberian peninsula is too crowded as it is, not much room for growth.

I am having so much fun.

although I've to admit, it seems more historically accurate, as generally, French kings only held a few central regions with fiercely independent noblemen holding the rest...

Right, but the situation of france was not so different from RHE (Roman Holy Empire). The HRE was more divided than france. Only England was quite united!!!

[Lopus]

Cool, I'll try to get a few more turns in, but it's already 3am where I am, and I've work at 6.

I'll let you know (via the AAR I'm writing) how things are turning out.

[Averroës]

Alphonso VI didn't actually take Toledo until 1085.

[Lopus]

I knew I read something like that m'sieu Averroës. Although the books I've been reading mention it as 1085-1088.

[Averroës]

I can see why they have it as 1085-1088. The city itself was taken by Alphonso VI on May 25, 1085. However that began a long series of battles with the Moorish taifa princes in the area of Toledo. This led to them inviting Yusuf ibn Tashufin into Andalusia, who then promptly defeated Alphonso VI at the battle of Zallaqa in 1086. This gave ibn Tashufin the idea to extend his African conquests northwards permanently.

But in all of that, Toledo was never retaken by the Moors, after 1085. It sort of set up the long standoff along that border that lasted until Cordoba was taken in 1236. It also set up the invitation of the Almohads into Andalusia. Technically, the Almohads weren't in Spain until 1086 and after, with Moorish Spain being a hodgepodge of petty taifas.

[tornnight]

Hmm I've noted that portugal like to invade lisbon, and suceed in the first couple of turns. Looks like i need to strengthen the defenses there.

[tornnight]

Really? Ok that settles it.

[Lopus]

Torn, I tried Averroës suggestion above, about Portugal and Spain both having 2 cities and a castle, and most of the moorish provinces are independents, so far 6 turns and going fine, no super-expansion.

@Averroës: Denmark in my first game (as England) expanded northwards after hitting the HRE and Polish expansion northwards. It seems the AI likes to go after independents first. The Turks have reached Asia Minor, but the Fatamids are still stuck in their original provinces. Everyone else is doing fine.

[Averroës]

I wonder if the Fatimids just got an unlucky roll of the dice when they attacked some rebel settlement in your campaign, Lopus? Set them back a bunch. I'm going to keep an eye on them. I haven't been playing much today. I picked up a great new book, Sailing From Byzantium by Colin Wells and I'm having trouble putting it down. Wonderful book.

[Lopus]

Nope Averroës, they have this huge army that is now (1099) expanding south and east. I think they built up their cities first. I saved (and then cheated) to move a couple of my spies to look at their cities, pretty well developed roads and markets and ports already.

So far, the only war is that between Portugal vs. Spain vs. Almohads in a three way fight to the death (this is standard descr_strat).

In my other game (using a modded descr_strat where the Almohads begin mostly in North Africa aside from Grenada, thanks to Averroës' suggestion), it's 1090, still no war ... yet, everyone is building up.

[tornnight]

I didn't go quite that far.
I made lisbon and toledo strong rebel settlements. I also normalized the hatred between the moors and portugal/spain a little bit. Seems to play better.

Egypt is being a tiny bit more proactive I think. They may require more tweaking.

[Averroës]

That'll work. Portugal just needed some serious nearby rebel settlement lovin' to help them get a foot up. The new change seems to help quite a bit. They don't immediately enter into a suicidal war with the much stronger Moors in the first turn. Gives their economy time to cook a bit.

Edit: see my post in the AI diplomacy thread. Portugal is sitting on their hands 32 turns into the game, not even moving to take Lisbon. Same with Spain. They may just be building their infrastructure a bit, but after 32 turns, I'd have expected them to at least try for Lisbon, like they were in 1.9.3. I think they really may need 3 provinces each. Moors meanwhile are expanding like the plague, both in Andalusia and Africa.

[Hissing Fauna]

I'm kind of technoloigically illiterate, can someone tell me how to change the Moors so they start out with less provinces in Spain? And how to give those provinces to rebels. 7 provinces is just too large to start with.


Sorry; I just realized that you had changed it with your new beta! Sorry! XD

[tornnight]

Next version will likely include 5 new provinces.
1 near the Fatimids (Egypt)
1 in central Italy
1 in the British Isles (Exeter)
Possibly 2 in Iberia. Getting sqwishy in there. 3 factions in that cramped space is a pain.

[Lopus]

Torn, why does Venice have Crete? This is fairly ahistorical, should be Byzantine territory, same as Rhodes.

Can we start the game of with a war between the Italo-Normans and the Byzantines? With a large stack of Italo-Normans about to invade Durazzo (lightly defended large town). The battle for Durazzo was in 1080 and pretty good fight.