TLR v1.9 Beta - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

[tornnight]

Unit Balance Issues Only

The new EDU in v1.9B3 is generated programatically using various formulas.

Basic Aims
1. Each Animation has a delay that was balanced using the Balancer EDU (Sticked Post), which makes unit cards accurate.
2. Each Weapon has a base attack value
3. Each unit has a mental state (Base Morale, Discipline, Training) that affects their attack and defense skill.
4. Their mental state is balanced according the build tree. The higher the building required the better mental state.
5. Missile primary units have a weaker secondary melee attack because of their lack of training in their secondary weapon.
6. Armor is equal to the depicted armor on the model.
7. Unit prices are based on the unit's armor/skill/attack/number of soldiers/health/horses/missiles.

Mental State Bonus formula:
Attack Bonus = Defense Skill Bonus = Base Morale / 5;
Attack Bonus = Defense Skill Bonus += Discipline (low -1 , normal 0, impetuous 0, disciplined 1)
Attack Bonus = Defense Skill Bonus += Training (untrained -2 , trained 0, highly_trained 2)

Benefits of the new EDU:
1. Armor upgrades work correctly and are very important.
2. Experience (Valor) is accurate and important
3. Unit Cards should accurately depict the strength of a unit. Two units that appear equally strong on the unit card should also be balanced in battle.
4. Cavalry Charges are strong but beware of spearmen. The frontline of spearmen can get overrun in a charge, but once they recover, your cavalry is in trouble. Pikemen are safe from frontal charges.
5. Unit prices and upkeep are accurate across the board.

[onefistedboxer]

The dismounted english/portugease/noble Knights - the ones with poleaxes.

I just played a custom battle england vs hre. They stood infront front of me with 5 units of my longbow men firing on them.

The passive ai was triggered because they had two units of pavise crossbow men

I tried out the muskets and they were unaffective- even against gothic armour a similaraly sized unit of longbow men is more useful, i think due to reload times. It seems out of place to have these loud scary guns in the game if they are beaten by bows which are available so early on

[tornnight]

Ok good. I did miss the difference between 1 handed and 2 handed axes. They will get a boost.

Gunpowder weapons will also get a boost.

These units were missed and will get upgraded.
Forlorn Hope
Famiglia Ducale

Thanks.

[tornnight]

In regards to,
"The men at arms are way too overpowered - they are supposed to be untrained but well equiped, whilst feudal knights are underpowered."

They are underpowered compared to other units of their era.
For example, Dismounted Broken Lances vs. Dismounted Italian MAA.

I guess we could argue that a knight is a knight and has the same training/skills no matter what era. That would require a complete restructure of the Barracks though. It would also make many units redundant.

[Lopus]

I'm not sure if its just me, but I had this wonderful siege going on in Caernarvon on turn 18, I sent Billy-boy with 4 spear militia, 2 town militia, 6 peasant archers, and 2 welsh-spearmen mercs that I picked up, oh, and a peasant unit (to use with the battering ram).

I was pretty amazed as the rain of arrows arcing up from within the castle slaughtered my peasants, my archers had moved forward to provide cover, but broke and ran within a few exchange of volleys. I think I need to have much better armored people next time I face the Welsh.

How big is the range difference between the Welsh longbowmen and my peasant archers? Oh, by the way, congrats, first time I've seen the AI use fire arrows too. I actually enjoyed that loss.

[tornnight]

Big difference. 180 vs 110

[Lopus]

Big difference. 180 vs 110

Ouch!!! No wonder my boys got slaughtered. Oh well, time to rebuild a new army, and figure out how else to kill the darned Welsh. Maybe 2 waves (one after the other) would be better, but my casualties will be horrendous.

All in all though, I love this version much better than the previous one.

[onefistedboxer]

Your right, in that the names dont have to determine how good a unit is and historical accuracy is way overrated but i think that there should be more to a tech tree than the units just getting better at a perfectly balanced rate, factions should get their best units at different times.

If you gave units the ability to upgrade their armour fully you could create an incentive for the armour upgrades and keep balance. In this way for example the Norman Knights, who are supposed to be good quality troops, could be cheaper than men at arms and have lower defence, but keep their highly trained attributes and perhaps high attack, then they could be upgraded to the same armour as men at arms and become superior in every way but slow and expensive to recruit/equip.

Then the men at arms could be used as quickly created troops and the upgraded Norman Knights as part of well prepared armies - making battles more diverse.

But i realise this is a big ask!!

also the religious fanatics have a really low attack when its normally high.

[tornnight]

Your right, in that the names dont have to determine how good a unit is and historical accuracy is way overrated but i think that there should be more to a tech tree than the units just getting better at a perfectly balanced rate, factions should get their best units at different times.

If you gave units the ability to upgrade their armour fully you could create an incentive for the armour upgrades and keep balance. In this way for example the Norman Knights, who are supposed to be good quality troops, could be cheaper than men at arms and have lower defence, but keep their highly trained attributes and perhaps high attack, then they could be upgraded to the same armour as men at arms and become superior in every way but slow and expensive to recruit/equip.

Then the men at arms could be used as quickly created troops and the upgraded Norman Knights as part of well prepared armies - making battles more diverse.

But i realise this is a big ask!!

also the religious fanatics have a really low attack when its normally high.

I agree that diversity is important. I believe that is accomplished with the various weapons / abilities / and armor levels of units at equal tiers. Besides, the true win of a battle should be decided mostly by tactics not numbers on a unit card.

I can't give units higher abilities to upgrade armor without someone to skin a new upgraded version of the unit. Quite a bit of work.

Religous fanatics are untrained fanatical peasants. They should be weak.

Remember, previous stats were skewed because they had to deal with the unbalanced animations. With that issue gone, now stats can make more sense.

[onefistedboxer]

oh i see i thought that the armour system worked on its own - i forgot about the extra textures.

Do you think a better way to work on the unit edu in this beta would be to post it as an attachment as you change it so we can test it?

[tornnight]

Yep I can do that. I'll post one tonight before 8:00pm EST.

[onefistedboxer]

By the way you might want to get out an early version of burreks units with these edu's so we can test them on custom battles before you release them on the building edu.

[onefistedboxer]

Quick note : The swiss pikemen are no loger the exeptional pikemen they once were, their attack is now lower than normal pikemen.

The byzantine varangian guard attack is now lower than normal knights - they used to have one of the highest because of their axes.The byzantine swordsmen have quite low stats.

[tornnight]

I agree with swiss pikemen. and byzantium units.

Byzantium swordsmen type units were accidently grouped under militia because they used to be recruited by city settlements.

[Irishmafia2020]

Will you have an update addresses these new balance concerns soon?

[onefistedboxer]

Your battle mecanics really need work, the passive ai is a real problem.

In a test Janisary musketeers vs a russian axe unit:

i set the janisaries in a two man deep line, the russians walked forward and once they were in range i clicked to open fire, the russians kept walking forward but my janisarries wouldn't fire.

I waited for a couple of mins on high speed but nothing, the russians stopped in front of the janissaries and didn't move the whole time.

I reformed the janisaries into a line 4 men deep and they started firing, after about five volleys the russians decided they wanted to attack and charged.

You might want to use darths battleconfigs and edit that for now.

On unit balance the danish axemen all have much lower attack than knights which i thought was odd because attack is their strong point.

[tornnight]

This is going to take me a little more time than I thought.

The battle mechanics are Darths. Nothing better available.

[Lopus]

Ehr, chief Torn, what did you edit in the EDU? Just for the sake of asking. I mean which parts?

[tornnight]

Since when? Heh

[Lopus]

Between 1.9 beta 2 and 1.9 beta 3.