universal collective subconscious

[Amorphos]

universal collective subconscious

quote from a chap at another forum:
I've had dreams (as probably most of humanity has) about experiences that i haven't had in real life, but I know they are the same in real life. *For example, I had a dream where I was bitten by a snake, and I somehow know in the depths of my being, that it is infact how it really feels to be bitten by a snake. *It felt like the fangs were still in me after I was bitten, and I kept trying to shake it free until I realized the snake was gone.
My friend has never been on a rollercoaster in his life, *he recently dreamt that he was on one, and the stomach churning feeling that he experienced he just knew was the same as how it is in reality. But what about flying, do you think birds feel the same way as we do in our dreams about flying? *Do we indeed have some innate connection with all of existence, past present or future?


I am sure we have dreamt many such examples, the idea that everyones and perhaps everything's experiences are somehow 'recorded' [for want of a better term] is amazing. It makes me think of reality as a complete life-form, continually growing and learning, perhaps this is one of many fundamental purposes for life. As we experience life everything would go into the cosmic cauldron from which new brews can be made in ever increasing colour and complexity, this could be why nature and the universe grows from the simple and often ugly natures to e.g. the beautiful blue earth with all its mountains, meadows and poetry of form.
Perhaps sleep allows us and other life to access this collective subconscious, many people consider the notion valid for a variety of reasons, but do we think of it as literally the universal collective subconscious of a universal mind?


Opinions and ideas?

[RZZZA]

I think youre just understimating the power of the human mind. Its all in the brain...

[Amorphos]

rzzza
those sorts of posts contribute nothing [without fuller explanation], you may as well open a thread called; 'i dissagree with everything that isnt black and white', and put all your comments in there.
So the brain somehow has knowledge in it that we have not introduced it to? The collective subconscious may also be a description of how brains interact often without conscious knowledge, but this would not include feelings only knowledge e.g. you would not know what a snakebite feels like, there would simply be information of what it seams to be like to others – same with flying etc. hmm actually no i am wrong, the brain could emulate these things and attribute similar feelings e.g. we all know what it is like to bite and to be bitten, and to fly - an exagerated jump perhaps.

do you think there is no such thing as 'mind' that it is all just connections and electrical impulses? I find that idea absurd. If we have 'mind' then there must be universal mind e.g. A source of mind.

[Pnutmaster]

Talk of the 'universal collective subconscious' (which made a recent appearance in the SYMPOSIVM) automatically stirs up the thought of ancestral memories, ala Dune. As a Dune fanatic, I fantasize from time to time about the collective subconscious, the untapped store of memories within me that might hold thousands upon thousands of lives and languages...I have on two distinct occasions dreamed of things that I never have and hopefully never will experience. One dream involved me being devoured alive by a lion and was disturbingly descriptive; the second dream presented me with a view of a trench, and for a moment I felt the terror of realizing that I was engaged in a real battle.

Yes, my dreams are quite fascinating, but scientifically speaking, I don't see much evidence supporting the possibility of ancestral memories.

If we reject the mystical notions of the mind and stand by physicalism, agreeing that all memories and thoughts are of a duplicatable, physical substance, we are met with a biological brick wall. How could all of our parental memories, up until the point of conception, be duplicated and transmitted during fertilization? Perhaps my limited knowledge of Biology is at my fault, but according to what I have learned, the concept of ancestral memories/collective unconscious is pure and simple mysticism (though I will still fantasize that our maternal memories are stored in our mitochondrial DNA, awaiting the day of the Bene Gesserit...and the Kwisatz Haderach )

[Amorphos]

Pnutmaster
i havent been to the SYMPOSIVM for a while – ill take a look.

interesting post. I agree about the transferal of parental memories, although some aspects must be carried on in the form of instincts. There is also a notion of the 'akashik' wherby all knowledge already exists in order for things to arise in the first place e.g. All the laws of physics must have been hanging around in the void before existence or they would not have been applicable from point 1 of the big bang. The very creation or transformation of a thing denotes that knowledge of that change must originally have been 'there'.

[RZZZA]

Yes I think its all a product of your own mind, not some universal subconcious. An explanation for the snakebite in your dream could be that your brain simply recreated the sensation of pain. Pain afterall, is a product of our bodies and minds. So in dreams, sometimes we percieve pain. Even though youve never felt a snakebite before, youre capable of imagining what it would be like. Anyone has had an inocculation before, everyone has seen the discovery channel.

An explanation for your friend and the roller coaster could be that hes felt that sensation before, perhaps while rolling down a hill or stopping suddenly in a car.

[Samuel_the_Great!]

Yes I think its all a product of your own mind, not some universal subconcious. An explanation for the snakebite in your dream could be that your brain simply recreated the sensation of pain. Pain afterall, is a product of our bodies and minds. So in dreams, sometimes we percieve pain. Even though youve never felt a snakebite before, youre capable of imagining what it would be like. Anyone has had an inocculation before, everyone has seen the discovery channel.

An explanation for your friend and the roller coaster could be that hes felt that sensation before, perhaps while rolling down a hill or stopping suddenly in a car.

I agree.Falling and flying.RZZZA I think your last post was close minded but you cleared it up now.However I do think you are close minded and your thoughts are a direct result of what Mother Culture told you.

[boofhead]

The subconscious mind cannot discern truth from reality, that is why psychological methods like positive affirmations work.

Try it. If you want to be better at maths or something just look in the mirror and say verbally "I am getting better at maths every day" a few times. You must say it out loud, and every day. "I am good at maths" etc. Even though it is a lie your subconscious doesn't know that, and if you say it enough the idea will be implanted there. And as the subconscious mind directly effects the conscious mind, eventually improvements will occur.

Anyway, the emotions you feel when you dream ARE real, even if the event is not. Your subconscious totally believes what it is experiencing.

Collective unconscious? Bah. We can imagine very well what it is like to experience something. The subconscious had no problem doing this.

[Ummon]

I wish I could go into details. Sadly I can't.

The existence of a process which underlies any individual consciousness, is a religious construct for many, so I will ignore it here.

I will merely tell you: countless human beings have dreams which portray the very same things. Given the nature of dreams, these similarities cannot be studied scientifically, as of yet.

But for example, I have personally dreamt, in exact terms, a masonic ceremony, which at the time I did not know.

I have dreamt the exact characteristics of what some cults and religions call astral travel, before knowing of astral travel.

Rupert Sheldrake, a member of the Royal Society, has made studies on precognitive dreams which are scientifically convincing to a basic examination. My initial skepticism has been surpassed as I discovered a few things in my own studies, about these events.

[Amorphos]

Interesting ummon!
I think the collective subconscious even connects to so called coincidences and fate patterns, or that there is something to which it belongs that does. We are all quite capable of working out the logical answers, yet we are dealing with something that has its own language and nature which is metaphoric and goes beyond ordinary logic. It is perhaps an undiscovered science, then again i don't think these things will ever be scientific of themselves even if we can use science to show they are an aspect of reality. Logic doesn't always apply – especially when there are attributes which belong to multiple parties in an equasion.

[Ummon]

Interesting ummon!
I think the collective subconscious even connects to so called coincidences and fate patterns, or that there is something to which it belongs that does. We are all quite capable of working out the logical answers, yet we are dealing with something that has its own language and nature which is metaphoric and goes beyond ordinary logic. It is perhaps an undiscovered science, then again i don't think these things will ever be scientific of themselves even if we can use science to show they are an aspect of reality. Logic doesn't always apply – especially when there are attributes which belong to multiple parties in an equasion.

In truth, the whole thing is very much investigated currently, yet there are no final results.

Since I am currently overworking myself to get to a scientific explanation of many of these phenomena, I cannot say much.

I can though tell you that currently, I am (personally) convinced that it is very probable that human beings are immortal spiritual creatures, and that this is scientifically arguable.

Of course, I will never say anything like that in RL, at least until I have a lot more evidence.

[Amorphos]

Ummon
sounds interesting, as usual you only tease with meaning lol
as for proof – to be honest it worries me, it could be a corner stone of a new understanding of life, yet it could also put us in a box. It could be similar to how the ancients considered the bible, they didnt have the means to question it so it became rigid and constraining, even though it can even now be interpreted in many new and interesting ways.

[Magik]

I don't think its the same feeling. Like when you dream, you feel the way you want, you feel the way you know it. Like when people tell you about something, for example someone tells you how it is if you get shotted, when you dream that moment you feel the way that person told you.

[Ummon]

To get good, detailed answers from me, I am afraid, you must post about less important arguments. :wink:

[Samuel_the_Great!]

Your can imagine taking a bat and hitting someone on the head with it.I think dreams just take it one step further and turn those things into a real sitution.