Czech-Polish OK for US missiles

[Kovas]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6376137.stm

The leaders of the Czech Republic and Poland say they are in favour of letting the US build parts of its missile defence system on their soil.

The US wants to build a missile interceptor site in Poland and a radar station in the Czech Republic.

Russia has condemned the plan, saying it will be able to target the sites.

"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic take a decision to this effect, the strategic missile troops will be capable of having these facilities as targets," said Gen Nikolai Solovtsov, commander of Russia's missile forces.

It remember me a Cold War...:hmmm:

[danzig]

Its pointless and Russia is overreacting. We all know the limits of 'anti missile shields', IF Russia were going to attack anyplace in Europe it would do so in a manner that would overwhelm any shield. They have the capacity to do it and in any type of conflict of this manner they arent going to fire one missile and go home. The technology is only good against states that have limited capacity where they have to outweigh the prospect of say a handful of missiles getting thru it and striking the target...something that will cause them to consider the move seriously in the event they were all shot down. This is Russian grandstanding and paranoia no doubt based on them being annoyed that its their former slave states agreeing to this. Dunno how anyone can take a system that is purely defensive and complain about it...its funny too since Russia supplies Iranians with anti aircraft missiles under the guise it is 'purely' defensive and hence they arent about to stop. So who are they to complain about this?

[Last Roman]

I'm against it. I see no reason for it and it's more aggressive foreign policy that we don't need.

[danzig]

I'm against it. I see no reason for it and it's more aggressive foreign policy that we don't need.

How is a defensive system 'aggressive'? And why does Russia insist on providing Iran with defensive weapons ok (in their eyes) and this isnt?

Why are we antagonizing russia now? This presidency is unbelievable, we're not done pissing off ALL our allies. No, we have to put a wedge between us and a few more nation still, we have to backtrack and erase the hard won efforts of past presidencies a bit more...

Russia isnt our ally, never has been...Poland however IS and considering again this is a defensive system what right does Russia have to be pissed over this? It isnt their terrority, they could easily overwhelm it if a conflict broke out. Amazes me more people arent concerned with Russian threats about this and more so about the US 'annoying' them with this.

[RZZZA]

Why are we antagonizing russia now? This presidency is unbelievable, we're not done pissing off ALL our allies. No, we have to put a wedge between us and a few more nation still, we have to backtrack and erase the hard won efforts of past presidencies a bit more...

[Erich von Manstein]

Russia needs to chill. It'd be one thing if we were placing short-range missiles in those countries. Nope, we're placing a shield there. Now really, unless they are planning on a nuclear missile strike at some point in the future, what do they care? Do they honestly believe that the American people would stand blithely by and allow a president to launch a full-scale preemptive strike against them, effectively ruining the global economy (and America's with it)? Russia needs to get with the times. It isn't 1961 anymore. The only reason they hate the shield so much is because they don't have the mental and fiscal resources necessary to build their own, and if they can't have one, why, nobody can!

[NaptownKnight]

The only true missile defence system is no missles at all....

[RusskiSoldat]

Well, our strategic command has often said that Russia can, if it chooses to violate a 1987 disarmament treaty, easily produce missiles that break through these shields.
Considering the Bush administration's willingness to violate and formally withdraw from treaties (including various Gorbachev era nuclear disarmament ones), I'd say Russia is in a position to arm itself.
In other words, the US just further antagonized a major nuclear power for the sake of building a low quality missile shield designed to protect Europe from god knows what (when's the last time Kim threatened the Czech Republic?).

[Erich von Manstein]

Well, our strategic command has often said that Russia can, if it chooses to violate a 1987 disarmament treaty, easily produce missiles that break through these shields.

Conveniently enough, Russia has no desire to violate said treaty so they won't have to worry about proving themselves right or anything. I mean, Russia being such a law-abiding country and all...except when it comes to delivering energy it has sold to its neighbors, or not poisoning candidates in its neighbors' elections, or not imprisoning its leaders' political opponents without cause, or not assassinating unfriendly newspaper reporters...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe anything that the bureaucrats and generals in Russia say. The Russian military claims it can produce uber-missiles that will break through ABM shields? Hah. Their space program is being forced to sell rides to Western billionaires just to stay afloat. When their nuclear subs blow up and sink off the Russian coast it takes them 3 days just to mount a rescue effort, while the Americans are in the area and offering help within a few hours. Forgive me for not believing that Russia is capable of creating the world's smartest ICBM at a time when their space program and armed forces are rusting away.

Considering the Bush administration's willingness to violate and formally withdraw from treaties (including various Gorbachev era nuclear disarmament ones), I'd say Russia is in a position to arm itself.
In other words, the US just further antagonized a major nuclear power for the sake of building a low quality missile shield designed to protect Europe from god knows what (when's the last time Kim threatened the Czech Republic?).

Ahh, well that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? If your neighbor builds a wall, what should you do? Why, buy a bulldozer so you can tear it down if you ever want to, of course. What a great way of demonstrating your peaceful intentions to the world.

The Rus people are some of the most delightful people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. Their government and military are a laughing stock, however, and boasting of their technological superiority at a time when they can't even beat a handful of rebels within their own country doesn't lend them much credence. Russia needs to realize that it is no longer a superpower and, instead of demanding respect from the world at gunpoint, it should focus on taking care of its own.

[Pavlik the Rus]

Main problem of this "shield" that US breaks a treats of Anti-missile defence. That treaty was a garant of balance and PEACE. And for the name of peace, we have no choise, we must have a counter measusres. Not we started this. If we'll have no reaction on this anti Russian move we will lose more in future. But US in their rush ignores all logical. Or someone will tell me that this is anti NKorean sistem? And radar with 4000 km radius too?
I still can't understand, what for this bases needed to Czeсны and Poles? Quaranty of security? Ha... Qaranty that nukes will fall to Czechia and Poland. What for they needed to simple people? I don't care on politics, they are the same in whole world. Kachinskiy said allready that this is "against those, who disagree with world order" We disagree. We are independent and have our own opinioin.

its funny too since Russia supplies Iranians with anti aircraft missiles under the guise it is 'purely' defensive and hence they arent about to stop. So who are they to complain about this?

I'll try. Iran BUYES anti aircraft systems to protect THEMselves. But Poland will not buy that radar, anbd Czech will not buy that anti missiles. US will deploy their anti Russian systems to protect US, not the Poland or Czech. Insted of Iran , Poland and Czehia protects not them selves, but US.
All this situation shows that with US must be no deals, they gov are liers and treasoners to their own diplomatic agreements.

[danzig]

I'll try. Iran BUYES anti aircraft systems to protect THEMselves. But Poland will not buy that radar, anbd Czech will not buy that anti missiles. US will deploy their anti Russian systems to protect US, not the Poland or Czech. Insted of Iran , Poland and Czehia protects not them selves, but US.
All this situation shows that with US must be no deals, they gov are liers and treasoners to their own diplomatic agreements.

You'll have to try harder then if you are going to resort to such terms 'anti russian system'...a system that has no hope of actually defending against a Russian missile strike doesnt exactly sound like much of an 'anti russian system' does it? And how would a system deployed in these countries not help protect them and Europe as well? Its not like US is going to say oooh look missile launch flying over Europe lets leave it alone because its not heading towards a US site. Its highly amusing people will go off on the US saying who are they to decide what other countries can or cant do (ie Iran) but yet will sit here and excuse Russian attempts to do the exact same thing. Of what business is it of Russia with regards to an agreement between the US and two other nations? This is like a giant complaining a wall that was built to keep midgets out impedes them in someway...when all they have to do if they wanted to was kick it break it down. The threat of small, rogue nations and missiles outweigh any *now* outdated ABM agreement.

[RusskiSoldat]

Conveniently enough, Russia has no desire to violate said treaty so they won't have to worry about proving themselves right or anything. I mean, Russia being such a law-abiding country and all...except when it comes to delivering energy it has sold to its neighbors, or not poisoning candidates in its neighbors' elections, or not imprisoning its leaders' political opponents without cause, or not assassinating unfriendly newspaper reporters...

What have we done unlawfully in gas sales?
And how is tax evasion not an actual crime?
And what proof do you have that it was the Russian government behind the deaths of Litvinenko and Politkovskaya?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe anything that the bureaucrats and generals in Russia say. The Russian military claims it can produce uber-missiles that will break through ABM shields? Hah. Their space program is being forced to sell rides to Western billionaires just to stay afloat. When their nuclear subs blow up and sink off the Russian coast it takes them 3 days just to mount a rescue effort, while the Americans are in the area and offering help within a few hours. Forgive me for not believing that Russia is capable of creating the world's smartest ICBM at a time when their space program and armed forces are rusting away.

Our fleet is indeed aging, but I fail to see how the newly revitalized army is "rusting away".

Ahh, well that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? If your neighbor builds a wall, what should you do? Why, buy a bulldozer so you can tear it down if you ever want to, of course. What a great way of demonstrating your peaceful intentions to the world.

Yes, and building a wall is a great demonstration of neighborly trust and good intentions.

The Rus people are some of the most delightful people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. Their government and military are a laughing stock, however, and boasting of their technological superiority at a time when they can't even beat a handful of rebels within their own country doesn't lend them much credence.

You mean the handful of rebels that we already beat?

Russia needs to realize that it is no longer a superpower and, instead of demanding respect from the world at gunpoint, it should focus on taking care of its own.

It is.
It's impossibly to not pay attention to threatening American gestures, though.

[Erich von Manstein]

What have we done unlawfully in gas sales?
And how is tax evasion not an actual crime?
And what proof do you have that it was the Russian government behind the deaths of Litvinenko and Politkovskaya?

So I suppose Putin had good reason for shutting down the pipelines into the Ukraine. Tax evasion is an actual crime. Trumped up charges are not. It is something of an open secret in Russia and the world that Putin (or his aides) was behind the poisoning of the Ukrainian prime minister and the shooting of the Russian reporter.

Our fleet is indeed aging, but I fail to see how the newly revitalized army is "rusting away".

Is that why the Russian army is still selling tank and plane rides to wealthy Westerners? Or why Russian paratroopers are unable to complete jump training because there isn't enough fuel for their transport planes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian...s_and_problems

Yes, and building a wall is a great demonstration of neighborly trust and good intentions.

Better to build a wall to protect yourself from your neighbor than buy a bulldozer to plow your neighbor's house under.

You mean the handful of rebels that we already beat?

Right. That only took how long? A decade?

It is.

The Russian Armed Forces consume a whopping 33% of the Russian government's budget, as compared with 5% in the US. I suppose that is why hundreds of Russian children are electrocuted each year while trying to remove copper from power lines to sell for food.

It's impossibly to not pay attention to threatening American gestures, though.

I will never understand how building a radar station is considered more threatening than boasting that your new ICBM can penetrate any of your enemy's defenses.

[Pavlik the Rus]

2RusskiSoldat

As you allready said, this paranoia is unbeaten. They have NO real evidences, they belive in what they want to belive. This is their problem, not ours. Thanks God, we have acess to all round of information and can build our own opinion. They can't. Sadly.... I'll answer no speculation about all that BS. Poisoning ... shoting.... drinking blood... slaying citizens with light sabres.... I must wrote this in Wiki and this will become a truth

2Manstein16

So I suppose Putin had good reason for shutting down the pipelines into the Ukraine.

1. Not Putin, but Gazprom
2. You have a shop. Will you give free your's goods to the customer?

It is something of an open secret in Russia and the world that Putin (or his aides) was behind the poisoning of the Ukrainian prime minister and the shooting of the Russian reporter.

Is that why the Russian army is still selling tank and plane rides to wealthy Westerners?

What, you will say that you don't want to try it? ANd BTW, there are few units where this allowed, and on old mashines. No one can ride on t-90s. And surely no one can do it on MBRK.[/quote]

If your neighbor builds a wall, what should you do?

Problemm is that the neighbor don't build this. He just allow to do this to someone else. And someone else mounting mashineguns on that wall, pointing it to us. And behind the wall stands mortatrs. Buldoser is necessary.

I suppose that is why hundreds of Russian children are electrocuted each year while trying to remove copper from power lines to sell for food.

Interesting, link please. About hundreds. And why not thousands and millions? And don't post a link to wiki.
And btw.... looks like that you really don't know about what you speaking. Maybe you have read this somewhere. And you really don't want to lie... But... Copper not used in power lines.

2danzig

'anti russian system'

If not, then anti who?

a system that has no hope of actually defending against a Russian missile strike doesnt exactly sound like much of an 'anti russian system' does it?

No, it does not. For now, yes, this 10 interceptors are nothing. They are quite uneffictive. But what will be in future? What prevent US from deploying more of them? And deploying more effective sistems. The one real counetr measure is a ntw missiles. It logic.

And how would a system deployed in these countries not help protect them and Europe as well?

I see that you techically don't quite understandwhat you are speaking about. Those interceptors can hit only a missile, but when it launchs a warheads to free falling, interceptors useless. And if warheads will fall to Poland (for example) this interceptors will not save Poland. They can be used only against missiles, what pointed on US. FOr Europe defence they are absolutly useless. Belive to ex officer of RVSN. I know what i'm speaking.

Its highly amusing people will go off on the US saying who are they to decide what other countries can or cant do (ie Iran) but yet will sit here and excuse Russian attempts to do the exact same thing.

We don't tell to nobody what they must to do. We said the truth. We will target this countries when they deploy this. This a very sad, we are the same slavs..... but.. we have no choise... We are makes this fairly. And what about US and govs of Poland and Czech? Did they said ALL truth to their citizens?

Of what business is it of Russia with regards to an agreement between the US and two other nations?

Like i said, we are not those, who tries to demand. We just tell what we thinking ablut it. Or we have no rights to do this? What, Russians becames a 2nd sort people?

any *now* outdated ABM agreement.

What do mean exactly? Do you want to say that those agreements have a date? No, they don't.

I'm interesting, where you from?

[Erich von Manstein]

1. Not Putin, but Gazprom
2. You have a shop. Will you give free your's goods to the customer?

Only in Russia is it believed that Putin had nothing to do with the Gazprom incident and that the shutoff had any commercial purpose whatsoever.

What, you will say that you don't want to try it? ANd BTW, there qre few units where this allowed, and on old mashines. No one can ride on t-90s. And surely no one can do it on MBRK.

You still haven't explained the trips into space.

Problemm is that the neighbor don't build this. He just allow to do this to someone else. And someone else mounting mushineguns on that wall, pointing it to us. And behind the wall stands mortatrs. Buldoser is necessary.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - does any person honestly believe that the US would launch a preemptive nuclear strike on Russia?! C'mon now, let's be serious.

Interesting, link please. About hundreds. And why not thousands and millions? And don't post a link to wiki.
And btw.... looks like that you really don't know about what you speaking. Maybe you have wrote this somewhere. And you really don't want to lie... But... Copper not used in power lines.

Assuming you are from Russia, your statement does not leave me with a favorable impression of the Russian media. The original article was in Newsweek. The following link is from Newsday (look for article #7) although googling the words "Russian", "scavengers," and "electrocuted" resulted in over 9000 hits, so please feel free to choose your source.

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5427.html

My apologies on the copper statement - I meant nonferrous metals. We'll blame the error on the fact that it is 2 AM here. Yes, the number is hundreds. And I never lie.

[Betepok]

I suppose that is why hundreds of Russian children are electrocuted each year while trying to remove copper from power lines to sell for food.

The original article was in Newsweek. The following link is from Newsday (look for article #7) although googling the words "Russian", "scavengers," and "electrocuted" resulted in over 9000 hits, so please feel free to choose your source.

So you think all of the russian "scavengers" are children?

And I never lie.

Don't you?

edit:
2 pavlik

[Sosobra]

Very well said Manstein16, although arguing or even stating fact with our resident forum Russian ultra-nationalists is somewhat pointless.

I fail to see the "threat" of a Missilse defense system being placed in Poland and Czech Rep. If the SOVEREIGN governments of those countries want those defenses its well within their right. The systems are completely defensive in nature, I guess Russia thinly veiled threat is a silly attempt to rattle its limp saber, and to feel relevant.

[Tiwaz]

Very well said Manstein16, although arguing or even stating fact with our resident forum Russian ultra-nationalists is somewhat pointless.

I fail to see the "threat" of a Missilse defense system being placed in Poland and Czech Rep. If the SOVEREIGN governments of those countries want those defenses its well within their right. The systems are completely defensive in nature, I guess Russia thinly veiled threat is a silly attempt to rattle its limp saber, and to feel relevant.

Defensive system which could grant USA, if developed far enough or assumed more effective by US government then it is, ability to strike against others without fear of repercussion.

The threat of small, rogue nations and missiles outweigh any *now* outdated ABM agreement.

No they do not. If they did, USA would convince others that it is so. And since nobody even bothers trying we can safely assume that US government knows just as well as rest of the world that it is total and utter load of BS. Designed only to make those who do not know or do not want to think to support this waste of money known as ABM.

If small nation uses nuclear missile, it is in defence against US invasion and most likely against american forces attacking.

Nobody will use them as first strike method. IF some small nation with nuke wants to nuke USA it will NOT be using missile. Everyone can see missile launch, it's exact source etc. It is suicide.

Meanwhile, one innocent cargo container moved through few different ports and coming to NY harbour can contain huge nuke. There will be no evidence left since any big nuke will annihilate the ship it was in.

Only way to trace such strike would be if you were able to ID reactor used to manufacture material from some unique attribute of material or if you managed to backtrack the right container through some incredibly lucky incident.

[Kretchfoop]

Defensive system which could grant USA, if developed far enough or assumed more effective by US government then it is, ability to strike against others without fear of repercussion.

...

I understand the point you are trying to make but I think that's a bit of a stretch right now as that appears to be many years off. Few would protest the development of military lasers because they could eventually allow someone to build a Death Star.

[Tiwaz]

I understand the point you are trying to make but I think that's a bit of a stretch right now as that appears to be many years off. Few would protest the development of military lasers because they could eventually allow someone to build a Death Star.

But it is still goal of US government to improve system. Of course whole concept is waste of money but it still does not serve anyones interests to try to cause friction in international community.

It will only lead to new arms race as more efficient defence penetrators will be designed or other methods of bypassing defence are introduced to make sure nobody in white house ever can be stupid enough to assume USA could start nuclear war and get out without total annihilation.

Not to mention that building these bases, which most likely will contain considerable amount of american troops, will be seen by Russia as direct invasion of their perceived "zone of interest". I personally being finn do not mind someone giving the finger to russians but it is hardly worth the cost we face in international politics due to mentioned friction.

Bit like Russia setting up big bases in Mexico and Cuba to give americans some kind of comparison.