Hammer and Sickle Removal Bill

[Erich von Manstein]

Proposer: Manstein16
Supporters: Kara Kolyo, Oroles



I hereby propose that all avatars and signatures bearing the image of the Hammer and Sickle of the USSR be considered an offensive image in the same vein as the Nazi Swastika and treated in the same manner as TWC policy treats said Swastikas. An example of the image in controversy may be found here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...and_sickle.svg

History:
Version 1.0
Version 1.1 - modified to reflect Lusted's comments below.
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Ok, before everyone gets up in arms, allow me to explain myself. I am opposed as a matter of principle to the banning of any symbol. There is a thread in the Questions and Suggestions forum in which this matter was discussed. However, seeing as how a TWC Administrator insinuated that those of the aforementioned position are Holocaust deniers (see the following link) I felt it best that the policy of banning offensive symbols be applied uniformly.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t=84279&page=2

Not wishing to acquire the stigma of being an anti-fascist Holocaust denier, I decided to propose that an equally offensive symbol, the Hammer and Sickle, be banned alongside the Swastika. My reasons are that the USSR purposely and systematically attempted to eradicate all non-atheists from the country on basis of ideology alone. Followers of Roman Catholicism, the Greek Orthodox Church and Sunni Islam were hit the hardest, with thousands of religious buildings being destroyed and believers being sent to the gulags whenever discovered. Many, if not most, never returned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...s_and_religion

I have no desire for my Catholic, Orthodox and Sunni brethren to be made uncomfortable and offended during their stay at TWC. As such, I propose that the most prolific symbol of the USSR, the Hammer and Sickle, be given the same treatment as the Swastika whenever found on this site.

EDIT: Having been informed by Lusted that the Nazi Swastika is not banned outright on this site but rather considered on a case-by-case basis, I have modified my bill accordingly. It now proposes that the Hammer and Sickle be given identical treatment as the Swastika under TWC policy.

[Garbarsardar]

I understand the purpose of this bill and I applaude you for bringing it here.
However and as I said in the Q&S thread, I think that blanquet bannings of symbols are unecessary; furthermore that will probably have an adverse effect on the occurence of the symbol you wish to remove from common sight.

I explain: If we have a set of specifications that are banned, it will be easy for users to present avatars with slightly changed specs that do not deviate from the rule you propose.

The process of removing an image was always contextual and I still think this is the best way since no one can really account for the gazillion permutations of a given symbol...

[Muizer]

I suggest we cut this discussion short. There is no end to the list of symbols that could be considered offensive by one group or another and for good reason. Therefore, the only feasible outcome of accepting the reasoning of this proposal would be to permit the Swastika.

[Nihil]

We have a few choices here. Two are logical. One is practical.

We can unban all contentious material and remove all censorship, opening the floodgates to a torrent of cuss words, vaginas, dildos, swastikas, and racial insults.

We can go to the other extreme and ban every potentially offensive thing that could ever conceivably bother anybody. Then we can have boring discussions about...err...well actually, I can't think of a single thing that couldn't be construed as offensive to somebody. So we won't have much to talk about, but at least nobody will be offended.

Or, we can leave things as they are, and accept that TWC lives in an imperfect world not of its own devising, where some symbols are more politically correct than others, and that this is not TWC's fault, but that's just how it is. And we can do what everybody already does in their daily lives, and learn to navigate this complex terrain of intricate and absurd conventions by striking a path that seems to bypass some of the most potentially awkward areas. We are primates after all - we have big brains for precisely this kind of thing. Not because it is logical, but because it is practical.

[Perikles]

I think this opens up the doors to banning every symbol on TWC that offends someone. I could start saying the Cross or Crescent offend me due to the Crusades and wars caused by the 2 religions, would this claim be any less valid than yours? I agree with Nihil, let's stick with the Status Quo.

[Erich von Manstein]

First off, I want to thank you all for taking the time to read the proposal and comment on it. I have a healthy respect for all of your opinions.

I certainly understand that banning a symbol can open the floodgates - this is exactly why I'm normally against such an action. I think an exception can be made here, however, because the situations involving the Hammer and Sickle and the Swastika are so similar. Both involved a totalitarian regime attempting to purge a religious group from its lands for ideological purposes, spilling blood to do so.

I do not expect this bill to garner any support; indeed, I would be quite surprised if it did. I created it as a means of exposing the inherent futility of banning any symbol for whatever reason. I am not a neo-Nazi or Holocaust denier, but a libertarian (although in some circles the latter is considered to be even worse). TWC has already begun down the slipperly slope. If you are going to cross that line, however, then you must be willing to apply it uniformly. To protect one group while exposing others who received similar treatment is patently unfair. You must finish the job that you started. A refusal to do so by falling back on the status quo is to miss the point entirely.

Again, thanks to all for your comments. I hope this can spur a healthy debate on TWC's policy of banning symbols.

[Kara Kolyo]

Actually i support this bill. There are few countries where the communist parties were banned and these regimes declared ilegitimate. Come to think of it most former soviet block countries did something simmilar. If we ban the swastika than the communist symbols must go as representing equaly oppressive and murderous regime. And no i'm not neo-nazy, just spent my first 13 years on this Earth in a communist country and even today i can see the damage that was done.

[Lusted]

TWC has already begun down the slipperly slope. If you are going to cross that line, however, then you must be willing to apply it uniformly.

Several people have pointed this out, but i'll do so again. No symbol is banned, it all depends on the context of the symbol.

[Erich von Manstein]

Several people have pointed this out, but i'll do so again. No symbol is banned, it all depends on the context of the symbol.

Yes, but that's just a point of semantics, isn't it? The Swastika as used by the Nazis is banned. Therefore I am asking that the Hammer and Sickle as used by the USSR and PRC be banned as well. The burden of presenting rebuttable evidence is on the individual user here, not TWC. It is up to the user to prove that the symbol is not used in the forbidden context. Seeing as how both the Swastika and the Hammer and Sickle in their basic form were used by their respective regimes, it is up to the user to show how their version is different. Please correct me if I am improperly outlining TWC's policy.

[Lusted]

Please correct me if I am improperly outlining TWC's policy.

You are. The Nazi swastika is only every going to be removed if used in a persons avatar or signature, and even then only after complaints. It can be used elsewhere on the forum without problem(part from maybe a "Nazi's were right!!!" topic), and even possibly in an avatar/sig without problem. No symbol is banned, it all depends on the context a symbol is used in.

[Erich von Manstein]

I have modified the bill to reflect Lusted's comments.

[Lusted]

I have modified the bill to reflect Lusted's comments.

Well its pointless as that IS staff policy atm, and the Curia cannot legislate for staff policy.

[Erich von Manstein]

Well its pointless as that IS staff policy atm, and the Curia cannot legislate for staff policy.

Lusted, your very own Guiding Principles bill seems to say differently. To quote:

If the Curia propose an idea that is fiscally viable, technically viable, and able to win over a majority (2/3) of the Curia, it is implemented. Ideas that do not meet the requirements of technical and fiscal viability are not voted on or can be vetoed.

Regardless of whether it is pointless or not, this is a legislative body and no motion put before a legislative body is worthless. Whether the executive chooses to implement it or not is irrelevant; what is important is that the message is sent.

[Belisarius]

I understand the rationale however would like to move to the opposite side of the spectrum and abolish PC in general.

Thus I move against.

[Lusted]

Regardless of whether it is pointless or not, this is a legislative body and no motion put before a legislative body is worthless. Whether the executive chooses to implement it or not is irrelevant; what is important is that the message is sent.

My guiding principles bill does not cover staff policy, as staff policy should always be outside of the Cuira. The Curia should propose ideas for changes to staff policy, but it sshould never be codified as staff policy needs to be flexible. This whole bill is pointless as it is stating what already happens. Any offensive symbol will be removed if it gets complaints.

[Last Roman]

I'm also going to have to agree with Nihil. Sometimes the status quo is the way to go.

[Arbaces]

I support this and I'm surprised and content my idea got so far - I don't generally expect so much in a discussion board. Altough I would have rather gone for a bill allowing any kind of avatar that meets the PG-13 standards, if this is not possible, I'll definately support this.

From what I saw on other boards I don't have to much hope, but still is unfair to allow the Hammer and Sickle (Communist USSR Flag I mean, not in any other context) and ban the NSDAP flag (I mean the NSDAP flag, not swastika in other contexts). Is a minor issue anyway, but, wtf, each individual should be allowed to advertise himself in every way he wants, then he should be allowed to hold whatever ideology he wishes... until it gets harmful to others.

However allowing this would make others request other bills similar. The Japanese perhaps should get offended by the US flag more then any of the symbols discussed above (as well as a few other nations, which I don't think have such a wide internet infrastructure though).

So what will this lead to? If it leads to something my I'm gonna get ASTONISHED!! .

Arbaces.

[Erich von Manstein]

Altough I would have rather gone for a bill allowing any kind of avatar that meets the PG-13 standards

By all means, utilize your privilege as a citizen and propose such a bill. I would support it.

SYMBOLS ARE ONLY REMOVED IF STAFF GETS COMPLAINTS ABOUT THEM

If that is correct then it would appear that the floodgates have already been opened. Surely you don't mean to tell me that every symbol that receives a complaint is banned, do you? I'm sure I could find a British nationalist who would find an image of Ghandi offensive since it represents the fall of his beloved empire.

[Lusted]

From what I saw on other boards I don't have to much hope, but still is unfair to allow the Hammer and Sickle (Communist USSR Flag I mean, not in any other context) and ban the NSDAP flag (I mean the NSDAP flag, not swastika in other contexts).

Oh ffs, how many times do i have to say this:

NO SYMBOL IS BANNED. SYMBOLS ARE ONLY REMOVED IF STAFF GETS COMPLAINTS ABOUT THEM OR THEY BREAK THE BOARD RULES IN REGARDS TO NUDITY/SWEARING.

[Arbaces]

I knew that, I was talking about the flags :wink:. Can you say that NSDAP flag is not banned from avatar, neither Russian Comunist Party flag? Or is it that the NSDAP is banned and Russian Communist Party flag is allowed?