Economic model discussion

**Divinehammer** · February 18, 2007, 09:21 PM

So I have been playing with 1.8 with the new darth battle pack. I am France on H/VH. I am unable to make enough money to stay afloat what is the matter here. I like the theme of the mod Tornnight has done a good job here. Though as I have expressed before I think some of the beginning buildings are too expensive though I like the longer build times I play on Superfast because I dont have alot of time to play. Sometimes I am up a couple thousand sometimes I am in the hole a bit. It is very hard to raise an army of any size and going crusading is almost impossible. On top of that my family tree kicks out a kid almost every turn and so right now I have 15 Generals and 9 provinces and you cannot disband family so that is bringing my income down. I am thinking of rounding up the worst ones and dropping them in Egypt. Does anyone else have the same problems or are they just using add_money? I confess I have had to use it here to keep from spiraling into debt.
Seems like there should be greater population bonus to land clearance. I cannot tax my towns much more than normal or I go to 0 or -1% which is counterproductive.

Just trying to figure out what is going wrong here. Thanks.

Edit: Title makes it sound like Tornnight did something wrong not what I was trying to say. More than likely it is something I did to myself

**Jush** · February 18, 2007, 10:42 PM

You should try, if you haven't, reading some of the veterans tips on playing TLR. Basically, your first 10 turns or so should be rapid expansion into all rebel territories possible, while at the same time building roads, farms and markets to build up your economy. Don't even bother building military buildings until you have at least roads and a grain exchange in that city. If you have a family member or governor in a town, with maybe one or two units, you should be able to keep a hold of that town or castle. I've used this strat for almost every culture on H or VH diff. and I've never gone into the red. Never.

Crusades are a must, you have to join them if you want to boost your economy. Because, not only do you not pay upkeep on the crusading army, you also get MUCH more money from sacking the target city. All you need to start a crusade is like ten units of troops, and then make sure you have a couple thousand in your treasury, and then hire mercs for the rest. Once the crusade is done, demolish the city, leave, find another one, sack that and demolish it, until you get tired or your army gets too small. My last crusade netted me around 35,000 florin.

**Divinehammer** · February 19, 2007, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jush

You should try, if you haven't, reading some of the veterans tips on playing TLR. Basically, your first 10 turns or so should be rapid expansion into all rebel territories possible, while at the same time building roads, farms and markets to build up your economy. Don't even bother building military buildings until you have at least roads and a grain exchange in that city. If you have a family member or governor in a town, with maybe one or two units, you should be able to keep a hold of that town or castle. I've used this strat for almost every culture on H or VH diff. and I've never gone into the red. Never.

Crusades are a must, you have to join them if you want to boost your economy. Because, not only do you not pay upkeep on the crusading army, you also get MUCH more money from sacking the target city. All you need to start a crusade is like ten units of troops, and then make sure you have a couple thousand in your treasury, and then hire mercs for the rest. Once the crusade is done, demolish the city, leave, find another one, sack that and demolish it, until you get tired or your army gets too small. My last crusade netted me around 35,000 florin.

Thanks Jush this is exactly how I play I blitz at first and as I coul not afford military units I didnt have any. Just like you were saying. Maybe it would be possible for Tornnight to mod council and mission gift in money I hate it when they give me units that I cannot afford. I started over last nigh as scotland and captured all rebel territorys and making all kinds of $ but on this camp. I am not having very many children at all. I actually have a shortage but I have money to keep building. this is kind of weird.

**Hissing Fauna** · February 19, 2007, 10:08 AM

That kind of raises a question... What about factions that can't have a Crusade or a Jihad? Like Orthodox nations.

I know for a fact that the Byzantine Empire did participate in crusades to a certain extent. Maybe there could be some way to code an 'invitation from the pope' to join it?

**Averroës** · February 19, 2007, 01:46 PM

You can use the same 'crusading' tactic as an orthodox faction. I did it as the Novgorods. Once I had my "core" provinces, I sent an army with 2 young generals south to the Middle East via Anatolia.

Sending 2 young generals is important, because if one dies (plague or in a natural disaster like the frequent earthquakes near Aleppo), then you'll still have a second backup general. Young is important because they're going to be there a while and you don't want them dying of old age.

I sent the army south past the Seljuks without attacking. They're a neighbor state, or will be, and I didn't want to antagonize them completely yet. Once past the Seljuks it was raid and sack time. I sacked rebel Baghdad and got 45000. Stayed one turn to repair a couple of troops and get the city title. Then I left, setting the taxes to very high, and destroying all of the buildings. Next was rebel Damascus. Then Tyre.

I avoided the castles like Acre. They're too much work for too little plunder.

I sacked Jerusalem and happened to have a diplomat near the Byzantines at the time. After the usual 1 turn to repair troops and get the title and then destroy buildings, I left the town and gave it as a gift to the Byzantines. This made them very happy and set them up for a nice long fight with the Seljuks and Fatimids, so they wouldn't bother me up north. Heh.

After Jerusalem, I went south to pay a visit to Cairo and Alexandria. By the end of my trip, I had 5 province titles spread between my two nicely command-starred generals, an army with mostly silver and gold experience and I had financed a massive building spree of all economy-producing buildings in my 5 home provinces and still had 98000 left over. I had churches, roads, farms, grain exchanges and ports where possible in all of my town provinces and I was well on the way to the second tier in all of those by the time my "crusade" was over. In my castles, I had leather working and either stables or garrisons and was in the process of building second tier there as well. My economy was producing an average surplus of 8000-10000 after wages and troops costs by then. So I bought some ships and sailed home to the Black Sea.

**Hissing Fauna** · February 19, 2007, 01:50 PM

Even so; the free crusader upkeep and the cheap units give Islamic and Catholic factions an advantage. I still think allowing Orthodox factions to participate in Crusades would help balance it out a bit more.

Also, Byzantium is so close to the Middle East that raiding tactics are hard to do without the danger of a large invasion.

**Averroës** · February 19, 2007, 01:53 PM

I agree. While the orthodox factions weren't as rabid about conversions as the Catholic and Islamic factions at the time, they certainly weren't entirely devoid of the idea. There were patriarchs in Novgorod at the time preaching for forcible conversion of the pagan Karellians and Tavastians to the north. So it's certainly conceivable that crusades might have developed in our alternate possibility timelines of M2TW.

It's a good idea to make friends with your neighbors before heading off on a raid and sack mission with an army. For the Byzantines, the safe bet would be to go raid the Moors. Marrakech is a nice rich little city!

**Hissing Fauna** · February 19, 2007, 02:33 PM

I meant more along the lines of Orthadox factions joining Catholic crusades, as the Byzantines did. Though independently launching crusades would be fun; however there are simply too few Orthdox factions to launch a Crusade on the scale that some Catholic ones are launched.

**Divinehammer** · February 19, 2007, 04:15 PM

You guys are kind of hijacking my thread. I am trying to find out if anyone has had similar experiences with France or if I just got a fluke game that isnt going my way. Thanks.

**Averroës** · February 19, 2007, 05:22 PM

I thought I answered it.

To be more specific. The mod is intentionally designed to make you choose carefully how you expand and what you build. You can't start off by expanding into every rebel settlement you see. That will quickly leave you with too many settlements needing upgrades and leave you poor. You can't build a large army or upgrade your military buildings too early either, for the same reason. Your experience playing France is not unusual for the mod. If you're used to playing a large map mod which is economically easy, like Rise of Kings for example, then you're going to be in for a shock.

The larger factions at the start, like France and the HRE are at a bit of a disadvantage. As France, you already have a good starting "home" set of provinces. Taking one or two more, at most, early is your only option. Make friends with some of your neighbors, Scotland and Spain and the HRE are good choices. Being allied with Scotland will keep the English mostly off your back. The HRE keeps Milan in check, and Spain will leave you alone to go after the Moors instead.

Make a minimal crusading army of a general plus 8 units, add another general, both young and promising or possibly your faction heir plus another younger general.

Ask the Pope for a crusade to Cairo or Jerusalem or Antioch. End your turn. Join the crusadeon the next turn. Ending the turn first is important so you get the small Papal favor increase from completing the mission of joining the crusade. If you join the crusade in the same turn you ask the Pope to begin it, you won't get that extra bonus. Send your crusading army by foot to the tip of the heel of Italy. Buy some ships. If necessary halt production on a building to get the money. Send your crusading army across to Greece from the heel of Italy. Always try to land your army when you have only a few ships or you risk losing the whole crusade to a pirate fleet.

From Greece, buy another ship or two, head to Crete or Cyprus or the coast of Anatolia. Wherever you can get without leaving your crusade at sea. By doing this you'll be the first army to the goal. And from there you have your raid and sack army in the perfect area to start generating income, as I posted above.

**Divinehammer** · February 20, 2007, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Averroës

I thought I answered it.

To be more specific. The mod is intentionally designed to make you choose carefully how you expand and what you build. You can't start off by expanding into every rebel settlement you see. That will quickly leave you with too many settlements needing upgrades and leave you poor. You can't build a large army or upgrade your military buildings too early either, for the same reason. Your experience playing France is not unusual for the mod. If you're used to playing a large map mod which is economically easy, like Rise of Kings for example, then you're going to be in for a shock.

The larger factions at the start, like France and the HRE are at a bit of a disadvantage. As France, you already have a good starting "home" set of provinces. Taking one or two more, at most, early is your only option. Make friends with some of your neighbors, Scotland and Spain and the HRE are good choices. Being allied with Scotland will keep the English mostly off your back. The HRE keeps Milan in check, and Spain will leave you alone to go after the Moors instead.

Make a minimal crusading army of a general plus 8 units, add another general, both young and promising or possibly your faction heir plus another younger general.

Ask the Pope for a crusade to Cairo or Jerusalem or Antioch. End your turn. Join the crusadeon the next turn. Ending the turn first is important so you get the small Papal favor increase from completing the mission of joining the crusade. If you join the crusade in the same turn you ask the Pope to begin it, you won't get that extra bonus. Send your crusading army by foot to the tip of the heel of Italy. Buy some ships. If necessary halt production on a building to get the money. Send your crusading army across to Greece from the heel of Italy. Always try to land your army when you have only a few ships or you risk losing the whole crusade to a pirate fleet.

From Greece, buy another ship or two, head to Crete or Cyprus or the coast of Anatolia. Wherever you can get without leaving your crusade at sea. By doing this you'll be the first army to the goal. And from there you have your raid and sack army in the perfect area to start generating income, as I posted above.

Thanks this is more what I am looking for what about the high birth rates is that common uncommon or just luck of the draw?
I think that it must be very hard to not pick the low hanging fruit as France I may have to start that campaign over I am playing as scotland and all is working quite well but it also started smaller as well. Is there a way that we can mod the game to give more monetary mission rewards than units. I hate getting units that I just have to disband.
When I restart as france I guess I will just try and take dijon and bordeaux. What do you think?

**Averroës** · February 20, 2007, 01:30 PM

Bordeaux definitely. I'm not sure about Dijon, you might consider Rennes instead. Or better yet, use Dijon as a buffer. Take it, sack it, burn it to the ground and then give it to the Pope as a gift. This will help keep the HRE off your back and help keep the Pope from declaring a crusade on Toulouse. Also a good idea to keep at least one cardinal level priest in Toulouse to cut down on heretics. Just send a diplomat or spare daughter to near the Pope before you take it so you can turn it over a turn later. Remember to stay in it for one turn to collect the title to the city. All of the vanilla cities except Budapest as Buda and Pest (which for some reason was left off the titles) give those titles. The new cities don't unless they're just old cities renamed, like Helsinki to Turku.

For the birth rates, that's actually a good thing. It allows you to pick and choose who to keep. Then you can send the scrubs with bad traits on suicide missions or park them on major routes into your territories to stop advancing armies for at least one turn.

"Here son! You're not very bright, and you're ugly and infertile and just a general genetic mistake. So I've decided to reward you with this very important post on this major road. Guard it well. Don't bother to write! Bye now!"

Getting the more annoying fruit of your king's loins killed off can be very entertaining.

For the reward of military units, you have two options. You can ignore the request of your council when they want you to do something particularly stupid, like take a rebel province too early. No harm in ignoring them. If you complete a mission and the reward is military units that you can't afford, there is no harm in disbanding them. They didn't cost you anything in the first place. I'm not sure if you can mod the mission rewards at all to change the frequency of monetary rewards. Might be possible, though.

Scotland is definitely a lot of fun to play. It isn't easy to keep yourself from taking towns in Ireland; but if you wait until after going on a raid and sack crusade, then you'll have the money to upgrade them as you take them. I usually head straight south first, take York then Caernarvon. I convert York to a castle, which gives me two on the border with my future enemy, the English. Then I do the council's bidding and take Aberdeen then Inverness (convert to town, since I have Caernarvon and York) and then Dumfries. And that's it. Two castles, one concentrating on infantry and siege units (York) and one doing cavalry and archers (Caernarvon). And four towns, and all future castles converted to towns.

**Lopus** · February 20, 2007, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Averroës

For the birth rates, that's actually a good thing. It allows you to pick and choose who to keep. Then you can send the scrubs with bad traits on suicide missions or park them on major routes into your territories to stop advancing armies for at least one turn.

"Here son! You're not very bright, and you're ugly and infertile and just a general genetic mistake. So I've decided to reward you with this very important post on this major road. Guard it well. Don't bother to write! Bye now!"

Getting the more annoying fruit of your king's loins killed off can be very entertaining.

Just be careful and look closely at each character, my current English (King Robert) monarch's son that is the best leader-type I've got is both ugly and girl-crazy, but boy, can he lead in a fight (command and dread bonuses up the wazoo) not to mention govern like crazy (farming, trade, and tax bonuses).

Originally Posted by Averroës

For the reward of military units, you have two options. You can ignore the request of your council when they want you to do something particularly stupid, like take a rebel province too early. No harm in ignoring them. If you complete a mission and the reward is military units that you can't afford, there is no harm in disbanding them. They didn't cost you anything in the first place. I'm not sure if you can mod the mission rewards at all to change the frequency of monetary rewards. Might be possible, though.

Don't disband the new units, disband the old ones, the new units tend to be better, that's how I got all my English Mailed Knights in the first place (12 of them in 3 missions).

**Irishmafia2020** · February 19, 2007, 06:00 PM

Well, I'm broke as Denmark... I was stabbed in the back by my English allies who invaded my Irish provinces, and my long running war with Russia has caused me a virtual military collapse because I can't afford better buildings to build better armies. I make about 5oo a turn, and it's not enough. I'll have to restart the campaign probably. I think the buildings are a little expensive - overpriced for their benifit. I love the mod though, maybe i'll turn the difficulty down. I guess I could crusade as well, but my war against Russia and my campaign in Ireland used up all my money, and pinned down my military pretty badly. Since I didn't make any cash, I couldn't upgrade and now I'm caught in a death spiral. The Russians are marching on me with some very formidable soldiers indeed...

**Averroës** · February 19, 2007, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Irishmafia2020

Well, I'm broke as Denmark... I was stabbed in the back by my English allies who invaded my Irish provinces, and my long running war with Russia has caused me a virtual military collapse because I can't afford better buildings to build better armies. I make about 5oo a turn, and it's not enough. I'll have to restart the campaign probably. I think the buildings are a little expensive - overpriced for their benifit. I love the mod though, maybe i'll turn the difficulty down. I guess I could crusade as well, but my war against Russia and my campaign in Ireland used up all my money, and pinned down my military pretty badly. Since I didn't make any cash, I couldn't upgrade and now I'm caught in a death spiral. The Russians are marching on me with some very formidable soldiers indeed...

That's why it's so very important in TLR to start slowly. Even if you do everything right, an early war can bankrupt you even as the victim and not the instigator. It's almost required to get your economy producing a net surplus after wages and troops costs. If not, you won't be able to build and you won't have money for emergencies, like buying some mercenaries when the AI catches you looking somewhere else.

I've completed 4 campaigns in 1.8 - as Novgorods, Turks, Hungarians and Sicilians - and they were all very close to losses in the beginning 100 turns. I've given up on several more in which I ended up in a situation like yours. In every one of the wins, I had to go raid and sack to get my economy into a positive spiral instead of a negative one. Expanding very slowly, with only 5-6 provinces at most for the first 100 turns, seemed to be the only way to advance my faction. And I never stopped sending occasional raid and sack armies to give my building periodic boosts, particularly for the expensive builds like better town walls and castle upgrades.

Once your economy in your basic homeland provinces is making a surplus each turn, enough to finance future building, then you can start expanding very slowly. By this time, of course, the conquest happy AI has already taken down most of the rebel provinces. So this means waiting for a Catholic faction to get excommunicated, if your playing a Catholic faction, or crusading more. Playing as an Islamic faction expansion has to wait even longer, because you always need to keep a possible crusade being called on you in the back of your mind. The Russians have it a bit easier - until the Mongols arrive, that is. I barely survived that one, and only because they concentrated on the Fatimids and Seljuks, giving me time to build up defenses.

Thinking about it. A good basic rule of thumb is: if you don't have the surplus money each turn to finance upgrading at least one new building in a newly conquered settlment, then you shouldn't be trying to take it and keep it. Take it and sack it and let it go, or don't go at all. To keep a settlement, you need to know that you're not going to dig yourself a financial hole building more stuff in it. Take a look at your finance numbers, if your projected expenses for the next year, subtracting out the building costs to give you a useful number, are more than your projected income, then you're still not ina positive economy. The total projected treasury given by the financial sheet isn't really useful, since it includes the costs of buildings you just entered into the queue.

**Hissing Fauna** · February 19, 2007, 09:51 PM

If you really want to change it; do what I did, go into the "descr_settlement_mechanics" file in the data folder of the Mod and give SIF_TAXES (MINING, TRADE FARMS, which ever you want) a bump where it says PIP Modifier Value. At least I think thats the factor you have to modify, because I bumped up a bunch to increase the income, and thats what seemed to make a difference. Don't change it too much, or you'll unbalance the game (I did that with my current game, not too much, but it kind of got rid of the economic challenge).

**Lopus** · February 20, 2007, 12:01 AM

I don't even use the queue since my Englishmen are perennially strapped for cash.

OTOH, my Milan game is going great, more money than I know what to do with, and that is with 5 cities and 1 castle.