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Thread: PORTUGUESE Character Names

  1. #81

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Carefully avoiding? Not at all.
    Like the other Character Names Project name listing the idea is to have historically accepted names of a given nationality; it would be bizarre, to say the least, to have a "Isaac ben Salomon" listed as a English name though jews were also common in England at that time; same logic applies to Portugal and every other European nation, the goal is to have specifically portuguese names.

    This, of course, doesn't detract anything from Jewish-Portuguese history, not at all, it's simply that the project doesn't encompass that and to have it for Portugal and not other nations would steer out of the project's general approach.
    浪人 - 二天一

  2. #82
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Manji,I am talking about Portuguese names,not about names like "Isac ben Salomon"
    Names remembering a probably or theorically jewish origin are being avoided,aren´t they?Like,for instance, those mencionated in the previous posts,just because they" sound" of jewish origin.
    Read again the quote in my previous post.
    And this:
    Removals - Baltazar, Mateus, Quaresma and Raquel (too "jewish" - same disclaimer)
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 08, 2007 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #83

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Manji,I am talking about Portuguese names,not about names like "Isac ben Salomon"
    Names remembering a probably or theorically jewish origin are being avoided,aren´t they?Like,for instance, those mencionated in the previous posts,just because they" sound" of jewish origin.
    Read again the quote in my previous post.
    And this:
    I completely support Ludicus statement here. We've talking about Portuguese-Jewish names, thus they ARE Portuguese. And I also think that Portuguese-Jews have the right to be mentione since their importance for our history was of crucial. In fact, such was the nubmer of portuguese jews in portugal that northern european naitons and msulin nations thought that Portugal was indeed a jewish nation. And of course lets not forget their influence in poilitics, the economy diplomatic relations, etc.

  4. #84
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Thank you,numerusdecimus.
    And not only in Portugal,the contribution of the Portuguese Jews to the development of the modern capitalism had a remarkable importance:
    From the "The Portuguese Jews and Modern Capitalism.
    Trading, Insurance, Banking, Business, and Economic Thought in Amsterdam from earlier 16th to the first decades of 20th":
    How significant was the Portuguese Jewish contribution to modern capitalism?
    What was its foundation? To what extent did some Portuguese Jewish families, such as Mendes or Nassi,Spinoza, Nunes da Costa, Vega, Pinto or Teixeira de Mattos, contribute to the growth of capitalism, its entrepreneurial and institutional changes
    http://www2.egi.ua.pt/xxiiaphes/Arti...20Nogueira.PDF
    (Disclaimer :I am not a jew)
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 08, 2007 at 02:54 PM.

  5. #85

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Well, as I've said before, I'm too busy for this project so do with it what you want; whoever, at least try to keep it as faithful to the general idea as possible too; then again, if you all agree it's worth going this or that way, go for it. I wouldn't do it but I'm not in charge of this.

    Just a end note: Portuguese-Jewish is not the same as Portuguese Proper in the same way that a New Christian wasn't the same as a Old Christian. WE can't possibly compare modern homogeneity in portuguese society with early, middle and late Middle Ages or even the Renaissance.
    浪人 - 二天一

  6. #86

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    And let us not forget insurance. During D.Dinis reign, Portugal was one of the first countries in the world to establish a national insurance system for merchant boats, fishing boats, etc.

    And of course, things that are still attributed to the Netherlands are in fact due to Portugues jews which brought practically everything there, from banking, to stock methods, to tulips, diamonds, chocolate, the design of the portuguese ships which in turn were used to create a new generation of ships, even navigational methods, winds, cartography from Africa, Asia, Indonesia etc...

    A portuguese jewish name is still under the same rules as the "normal" portuguese name. These names went through a long evolution through adaptation to the local language, creation of entirely NEW names, and even the mix of local non jewish names with jewish ones.

    There are actually a lot of portuguese jewish that are unique only to Portugal(and in some cases to southern iberia).
    Last edited by numerosdecimus; July 08, 2007 at 03:03 PM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Well, as a matter of fact I assumed (maybe wrongly) "jewish" names were agreed in this forum to be excluded before I came.

    I understand Manji's position defending our names shouldn't seem too "jewish" or else Portugal would seem like Israel (I'm half-kidding).

    On the other hand we cannot deny our heritages: Latin, Celtic, Visigothic, Jewish, Arab, etc. Portugal is what it is due to this rich multicultural and multiracial mixture.

    From those names Tullius suggested and I removed I think Quaresma and Mateus seem very Portuguese (with or without jewish provenience). Raquel and Baltazar on the contrary seem like names any jew in Europe or Asia could have.

    A word of caution - I'm pretty sure the game cannot give "jewish" names only to merchants or diplomats. If a name is there then it could be for a King. Would you guys want a Portuguese King named Baltazar? Or a Portuguese Princess named Raquel Quaresma?
    Last edited by riquinh0; July 08, 2007 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #88

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Well about D. Fuas Roupinho I can tell that most probably his name as not Fuas Roupinho. Hehehe nobody can have that name!

    Behind the myth there is most probably an historical character. There are some thesis about the subject. One of the oldest is that his name was Fernão Gonçalves, whose nickname was “Faroupim”. He must remember that the D. Fuas Roupinho myth passed from generation to generation, and only in the XVI century was written.

    Another thesis is that he was crusader from northern Europe and Fuas Roupinho was the Portuguese way to tell some Germanic name.

    And, Ludicus
    “By the way,if i still remember it well,D.Fuas Roupinho mother was jewish and he was Afonso Henriques half-brother”

    We can’t say this if we don’t have sure of who he was…

    But I think you are most right in correcting me about the Jewish, when you say “Above all,patronymics”.
    And a nice link, again. By this way I will double soon my Favourites!

    But that number of Jews… hummm… I don’t know… remember the other thread about numbers? I am always suspicious…

    Btw, nice link also Manji, and good bibliography.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by riquinh0 View Post
    A word of caution - I'm pretty sure the game cannot give "jewish" names only to merchants or diplomats. If a name is there then it could be for a King. Would you guys want a Portuguese King named Baltazar? Or a Portuguese Princess named Raquel Quaresma?
    good point!
    Last edited by Tulius Hostilius; July 08, 2007 at 03:37 PM.
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  9. #89
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Well about D. Fuas Roupinho I can tell that most probably his name as not Fuas Roupinho
    Yep,but that name (or something like that) was the name given when he was knighted.
    Yes, we don´t know the former name.The point is,he was of jewish origin.

    From riquinhO
    From those names Tullius suggested and I removed I think Quaresma and Mateus seem very Portuguese (with or without jewish provenience)
    Right,I think we only need to use the common sense.

    But that number of Jews… hummm… I don’t know… remember the other thread about numbers? I am always suspicious…
    Good point.Anyway,those numbers are from the Jewish Virtual Library.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 08, 2007 at 04:24 PM.

  10. #90

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Good point.Anyway,those numbers are from the Jewish Virtual Library.
    From my knowledge, Jewish sources are always the most accurate about these topics, unlike other sources, these haven't been vulnerable to propaganda/political changes.

  11. #91

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Baltazar is not Jewish name (as well as Caspar and Melchior), while Pereira is.
    The better way is to take some medieval history book or chronicle and to copy all the names. There are the names from my book lacked in your lists.

    bynames
    de Acunha
    de Asevedo
    de Avis
    de Carvalho
    de Coimbra
    de Guzman
    de Oliveira
    de Sequeira
    de Merlo

    female
    Berenguela
    Jimena

    PS. Gloria and Victoria hardly used before the end of 19th.

  12. #92

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    Baltazar is not Jewish name (as well as Caspar and Melchior), while Pereira is.
    I guess I'll leave that for Tulius to comment .

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    The better way is to take some medieval history book or chronicle and to copy all the names. There are the names from my book lacked in your lists.

    bynames
    de Acunha
    de Asevedo
    de Avis
    de Carvalho
    de Coimbra
    de Guzman
    de Oliveira
    de Sequeira
    de Merlo
    I guess you are not Portuguese or if you are you didn't read the last pages of this thread. If you did you would know we are only accepting names in modern Portuguese while others already exist without the "de". But I'm not going to comment more because we already have enough surnames and bynames, except to say "de Avis" was a title, not a byname.

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    female
    Berenguela
    Jimena
    Berenguela is probably pre-renaissance and Jimena is pre-renaissance and Spanish (see last pages for details).

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    PS. Gloria and Victoria hardly used before the end of 19th.
    You are probably right, these names are too modern.

    Removals: Glória and Victória.
    Last edited by riquinh0; July 08, 2007 at 06:59 PM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    Baltazar is not Jewish name (as well as Caspar and Melchior), while Pereira is.
    I'm not even going to bother, this has been answered countless times; heck, even José Hermano Saraiva talked about the "jewish Pereira myth"; but hey, if "otark" says it so then it must be truth...

    Edit: Guzman? Asevedo? Otark's wisdom ceases not to amaze me!
    浪人 - 二天一

  14. #94

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    Baltazar is not Jewish name (as well as Caspar and Melchior), while Pereira is.
    The better way is to take some medieval history book or chronicle and to copy all the names. There are the names from my book lacked in your lists.

    bynames
    de Acunha
    de Asevedo
    de Avis
    de Carvalho
    de Coimbra
    de Guzman
    de Oliveira
    de Sequeira
    de Merlo

    female
    Berenguela
    Jimena
    and about Baltazar
    Quote Originally Posted by riquinh0 View Post
    I guess I'll leave that for Tulius to comment .
    Ok.
    Just a previous note. I said

    I didn’t like the name “Baltazar”. It sounds to much “Jewish” (disclaimer: I don’t have anything agaist Jewish people).

    And I would say it again… for me, in a medieval context… It sounds to much “Jewish”… and I already said… I can be wrong here…
    And Ludicus already made some corrections to my post.

    I don’t know if Baltazar it is Jewish or not, never studied the issue. But if it is not Jewish certainly seems from Semitic origins. It has the prefix “Lord/Master”; like Hannibal as the same suffix. On the other side Baltazar is a biblical name (with this I mean that appears on the Bible), in various forms, the most known is in Mateus (if I remember well), when he talks about the 3 wise men (didn’t check this but we can confirm it quite quickly). I also think that there is another reference to that name.

    Back to late medieval ages, or early modern, I remember that the name appears in a document as a reference to a Jewish merchant. This doesn’t prove anything… but… Like riquinh0 said, it would be strange to have a king or even a noble with the name Baltazar.

    And Otark,
    About the Pereira I will not pronounce myself. I don’t know much about it. But just one question. If… if Pereira is… so is Oliveira… Carvalho… just to say some.

    Acunha (?) - don’t know, maybe Cunha;
    Asevedo is Azevedo, with a “Z”;
    Guzman (?) - maybe Gusmão, from Castilian origins never saw it in medieval documents, just in modern ones (?);
    Avis, yes we had an Order of Avis (with z in English), and an Avis Dynasty.
    Carvalho - as Jewish as Pereira and Oliveira
    Merlo (?) – I believe that it’s a name of a bird… in Italian, something like the Portuguese “Melro”!

    Jimena – Yes, it existed in the Galaico-portuguese region, with an “X”: Ximena;
    And let us fry Berenguela. It is very good…
    Ups! Forgot to change to “Beringela”!
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  15. #95

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    2Riquinh0

    It just can't be enough names (if they are historically correct, of course) in the CNP. What do you have against the Duke of Coimbra, for example?

    Berenguela is from 13th, being pre-renaissance is bad or good? Jimena is Spanish (as de Guzman, too), I see.

    little more about first names http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/n...guese-data.htm http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/portuguese.htm

    @Manji

    About Pereira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pereira_(surname);
    also mentioned here http://www.orthohelp.com/geneal/nameorig.HTM
    http://www2.jewishculture.org/public...jf_perera.html
    All I wanted to say it's that the Pereira surname linked to Jews in a some way while Baltazar is not at all (stressing on Baltazar not Pereira).




    The King of Portugal was placed at the middle, and the duke somewhat below him; a little lower than the duke, the Count d'Acunha and the Count de Novaire. At the head of the second table was the deputy grand master of Avis: then the grand master of St. James, in Portugal, and the grand master of St. John, Diego Lopez Pacheco, Joao Fernandez Pacheco his son, Lopo Vasquez d'Acunha, Vasco Martin d'Acunha, Lopo Diaz d'Azevedo, Vasco Martin de Merlo, Gonzalves de Merlo, all great barons. The Abbot of Aljubarrota, the Abbot of St. Mary, in Estremadoura, Sir Alvarez Pereira, marshal of Portugal, Joao Rodriguez Pereira, Joao Gomez de Silva, Joao Rodriguez de Sa, and many other Portuguese knights, were there seated; for not one Englishman was at the table that day, but served their guests.

    J.Froissart. John of Gaunt in Portugal, 1385.

  16. #96

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    @Tulius Hostilius

    Magi
    In Christian tradition, wise men from the East who came to pay homage to the infant Jesus. According to Matthew 2:1 – 12, they followed a miraculous guiding star to Bethlehem and brought gifts of "gold and frankincense and myrrh." Herod asked them to report the location of Jesus' birth on their return journey, but an angel warned them of his evil intentions. In later Christian tradition they were said to be kings and were given the names Melchior, Balthasar, and Gaspar. Their visit was seen as evidence that the Gentiles as well as the Jews would worship Jesus, and it is celebrated in the feast of Ephiphany. See also magus.

    These names are exclusively Catholic names but they are become more popular on Iberian peninsula in 16-17th (as it appears). So they are out of question. Any name is ok providing it's historically accurate.

    And you are not know your medieval nobility.

  17. #97

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Otark,

    What is the CNP?

    Behind the question of the apparent Semitic (or Christian in your opinion) origin of Baltazar, did you understand my point about it?
    The real question is: Should it be, or not in the list? In my opinion: No.

    Another question, what is www.sca.org? Thanks in advance.

    About Froissart, a most prominent historian of the XV century, we can’t expect to read it by the letter, all, or at least about Portuguese names, I mean, we was not Portuguese, we don’t know if we spoke fluently Portuguese (at least I don’t know), the Portuguese words could seems a bit strange to him, or not? Then we have always the problem of the copies, and how they reached to us… We can have some more solid position if we compare whit other documents! … Btw, did you read what I wrote about D. Fuas Roupinho?

    And still about Froissart here is one link:
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...-portugal.html
    the real source is:
    “From: Eva March Tappan, ed., The World's Story: A History of the World in Story, Song and Art, 14 Vols., (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1914), Vol. V: Italy, France, Spain, and Portugal, pp. 570-582.
    Scanned by Jerome S. Arkenberg, Cal. State Fullerton. The text has been modernized by Prof. Arkenberg.”

    About the name “Acunha” I only can tell you that indeed there was a “Martim Vasques da Cunha”, son of Inês de Castro, who initially fight with D. João I against Castile, but after he changed sides and went to Castile and the king of Castile made him Count of Valencia del Campo.

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    “Any name is ok providing it's historically accurate.”
    .
    Finally we agree on something!

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    “And you are not know your medieval nobility.”
    Sorry, I didn’t understand this sentence!
    Do you mean that I don’t know well Portuguese medieval nobility? Of course not… I was born in the XX century!... but I did some study about a few Portuguese early medieval noble families… maybe we can talk about it...

    Edit:
    Martim Afonso de Melo and
    Vasco Martins de Melo, 3rd grandson of Mem Soares de Melo, Lord of Castanheira, lived in the Solar Melo for order of D. Leonor Teles and count Frenandes de Andeiro,

    The other Merlo must be also a Melro, I men Melo.
    Last edited by Tulius Hostilius; July 09, 2007 at 02:30 PM.
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  18. #98
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    but I did some study about a few Portuguese early medieval noble families… maybe we can talk about it...
    Tulius,always a connoisseur and diplomat.

  19. #99

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    I believe CNP means Characters Names Project, we Portuguese are terrible with TLA's (Three Letter Abreviations), .

    OK, regarding the last names in discussion:

    Baltazar and Raquel are defenitly out - there is consensus (I think) we don't want a King Baltazar.

    I can include more surnames and bynames, it can't hurt. I was stressing the necessity of more prenoms, but even that doesn't matter for we can always go for a solution others did: repetition of the more common names at the time (as long as a prename does not repeat as surname).

    Pereira, Carvalho and Oliveira - I'm not going to discuss the Myth, even if they were Jewish we already agreed (again: I think) Portuguese Jewish is acceptable but not Universal Jewish. Those names are already there.

    English as well as other foreign historians are always "suspect" in the sense they cannot distinguish very well Portuguese from Spanish, lots of times they go for what sounds good to their ears. They also adapt names, which is terrible, I'm always horrified when I see Magellan instead of Magalhães or Camoens instead of Camões. And, Otark: pre-renaissance is bad, read the posts above as I told you, I'm not going to repeat the same thing over and over because you feel lazy. So:

    de Acunha - da Cunha already there. Acunha is Spanish and pre-renaissance.
    de Asevedo - Azevedo already there
    de Avis - title
    de Carvalho - Carvalho already there
    de Coimbra - it started as a title with D. Pedro Duque de Coimbra but now is a fairly common surname. I can include it. That reminded me his brother D. Henrique Conde de Viseu, same thing.
    de Guzman - I can include de Gusmão
    de Oliveira - Oliveira already there
    de Sequeira - I can include it
    de Merlo - too weird and pre-renaissance

    So, Otark: don't you think you could have saved us a lot of time if you had read more carefully the names and the posts? Also please don’t think we are treating you bad because you are foreign, everybody is welcomed here and Portuguese are known for their hospitallity. We were not “treating you good” because you seemed lazy and with your attitude you were calling us stupid, sort of. But, in the end, you managed to suggest 3 additions and 2 removals and you done more than some people around , , . So... congrats.

    Additions: de Coimbra, de Viseu, de Gusmão, Sequeira.
    Last edited by riquinh0; July 09, 2007 at 01:17 PM.

  20. #100

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    The King of Portugal was placed at the middle, and the duke somewhat below him; a little lower than the duke, the Count d'Acunha and the Count de Novaire. At the head of the second table was the deputy grand master of Avis: then the grand master of St. James, in Portugal, and the grand master of St. John, Diego Lopez Pacheco, Joao Fernandez Pacheco his son, Lopo Vasquez d'Acunha, Vasco Martin d'Acunha, Lopo Diaz d'Azevedo, Vasco Martin de Merlo, Gonzalves de Merlo, all great barons. The Abbot of Aljubarrota, the Abbot of St. Mary, in Estremadoura, Sir Alvarez Pereira, marshal of Portugal, Joao Rodriguez Pereira, Joao Gomez de Silva, Joao Rodriguez de Sa, and many other Portuguese knights, were there seated; for not one Englishman was at the table that day, but served their guests.

    J.Froissart. John of Gaunt in Portugal, 1385.
    Nice text. Now that I think about it maybe the blame on us finding "suspect" Portuguese names coming from foreign historians could be due to more modern foreign text reviewers don't know enough modern Portuguese to change an Alvarez to Álvares, a Rodriguez to Rodrigues or a Gonzalves to Gonçalves. And maybe Asevedo, d'Acunha and Merlo are typos (again to blame on reviewers) and in the original text it was Azevedo (or the spanish Acevedo), da Cunha and Mello. Just a thought.

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