PORTUGUESE Character Names

[riquinh0]

What's the conclusion here then?

Good question...

[Ludicus]

Well,riquinhO wrote: (and well)

Taken from what I already said, my proposal (if you want to have a more "polished" version fast) is that you give us a new list (3.01?) including the names on the late version and some new names "on the bench" and leave that for appreciation for some time (1 or 2 weeks?)

Waiting for Manji...

[riquinh0]

Finney,

After your

Will PM Manji about the rest.

reinforced by Manji's 1st intervention, I was under the impression Manji is or was the "Project Leader" for the Portuguese Names part of the project. I think at least Ludicus was under that same impresiion.

Corrected me if I'm wrong and/or tell us what you want delivered. Because since my first intervention here I already presented suggestions for corrections, suggestions for additions and proposal for a squeme in order to have a more refined new version.

All I saw in return were comments about some of the names.

I'm not criticizing anybody but I think you'll understand me for saying that my will to return here everyday waiting for Manji's response is getting weaker and weaker and that I will stop coming very very soon.

I just don't see enough movement, at least on the relevant parts. And being just a newcomer it's not my place to say more than I already did.

[Manji]

Any and all changes are fine by me, if, an only if, a majority agrees, even if that majority is composed of two persons.
I don't have the time to devote myself to this right now but other portuguese speakers are abundant in these forums so I trust you all to reach a reasonable consensus. Just a word in advance: do employ your common sense as well as historical data: just because you want a certain name to be featured that doesn't mean it really was common or even used back then.
Check some of my earlier posts for historical references and data.

[finneys13]

Look, it is up to you guys if you want the list chanced, if you can make it more accurate, great stuff.

[numerosdecimus]

I disagree with the idea of putting recent name in the portuguese name list of this project if they are not minimably historically correct. Minimably in the sence that a certain name may have first appeared in the 15th century but it' s still acceptable, not one that appeared only a few years ago.

[riquinh0]

I disagree with the idea of putting recent name in the portuguese name list of this project if they are not minimably historically correct. Minimably in the sence that a certain name may have first appeared in the 15th century but it' s still acceptable, not one that appeared only a few years ago.

Exactly my view.

Fine. As Manji is too busy and finneys13 already told us we can do what we want, I took the liberty of making a new list based on the following criteria:

1 - Names should be (or at least seem) of medieval origin, they should be also fairly common. The main principle should be: if a portuguese natural plays the game all the Portuguese names should not "shock". They should apear as a perfectly natural name one of our ancestors could have.

2 - Spelling should be the current one. "Gonçallus" or "Fernadiç" would seem almost like chinese to a modern portuguese person.

3 - We should avoid ridiculous repetitions that would not "normally" happen. For example "Miguel Miguel" or "José Lemos de Lemos". No "normal" father would name his son or daughter like that. I made the new list with no such repetitions.

4 - There are names like Pêro, Mendo or Bento that hardly can be seen nowadays. However those names are easily recognizable by anyone as "old names" and they should stay. As long as they are EASILY recognizable.

I suggest we progress fast because, if you think about it, this is not difficult. On the contrary: with team work it is very easy. I'll post now a new list based on Manji's work but with some changes made by me according with the above criteriae. To work on top of it I only suggest this:

Any name you have doubts about it you say it. And you propose another one (or better yet: two) for substitution. I'm perfectly sure in two weeks we'll achieve a list any portuguese will see as his own. And any foreign as "real" portuguese names.

Of course all of this is a suggestion and subject to the forumers opinion. But I'll ask you to please express now any thing you have against this main principles. If you don't have anything against it then I suggest we move on and then move by this suggested principles.

Note: It was with some hope that I saw in the "cimeira" UE/Brazil (a moment that will hardly repeat in history), our prime-minister defend Portuguese should be more valued in the world as it is spoken by more than 250 million people. What do you say: let's do our small contribution?

Here's my starting proposal:

;;;List created by riquinh0 based on MANJI's list 3.0
faction: portugal

characters - 74
Afonso
Agostinho
Alberto
Alexandre
Alfredo
Álvaro
André
Antero
António
Arnaldo
Artur
Baltazar
Bartolomeu
Bento
Bernardo
Carlos
Cláudio
Cristovão
Damião
Dinis
Diogo
Duarte
Egas
Estevão
Fernão
Fernando
Filipe
Francisco
Frederico
Gabriel
Gaspar
Geraldo
Gonçalo
Gil
Guilherme
Gustavo
Henrique
Hugo
Humberto
João
Joaquim
Jaime
Jorge
José
Leonardo
Leopoldo
Lucas
Luís
Lopo
Lourenço
Manuel
Martim
Martinho
Mendo
Miguel
Nicolau
Nuno
Paulo
Pedro
Pêro
Ramiro
Ricardo
Rodrigo
Rogério
Rui
Sancho
Sebastião
Tomé
Tomás
Tristão
Vasco
Vicente
Vitor
Xavier

surnames - 115
Abrantes
Aboim
Albuquerque
Alcoforado
Aleixo
Almeida
Álvares
Amaral
André
Antão
Antunes
Bandeira
Baptista
Barroso
Bastos
Borges
Brás
Brito
Cabral
Calheiros
Campos
Carvalho
Castelo
Castelo-Branco
Cavaleiro
Coelho
Correia
Coutinho
Cruz
Delgado
Dias
Durão
Eanes
Faria
Ferreira
Fernandes
Figueiredo
Fonseca
Freire
Freitas
Furtado
Gama
Garcia
Geraldes
Gomes
Gonçalves
Henriques
Leal
Lobo
Lopes
Martins
Mata
Mateus
Meira
Mendes
Mendonça
Moniz
Monteiro
Nascimento
Navarro
Neto
Nobre
Nogueira
Nunes
Oliveira
Osório
Pacheco
Pais
Pascoal
Pedroso
Pereira
Peres
Pires
Portela
Preto
Quaresma
Queirós
Ramalho
Ramires
Raposo
Rego
Reis
Resende
Ribeiro
Rodrigues
Romão
Salvador
Sampaio
Santos
Saraiva
Sarmento
Sanches
Santiago
Seabra
Serra
Silveira
Simões
Soares
Sobral
Sobreda
Tavares
Taveira
Teixeira
Teles
Valente
Vasconcelos
Vaz
Veloso
Viana
Viegas
Vieira
Vilaça
Vilarinho
Vilhena
Zarco

;;bynames - 47
da Anunciação
da Anunciada
da Conceição
da Costa
da Cunha
da Guarda
da Horta
da Maia
da Mota
da Ponte
da Silva
de Alter
de Andrade
de Araújo
de Ataíde
de Azevedo
de Barros
de Beja
de Bragança
de Bulhão
de Cana
de Castelo de Vide
de Castro
de Chaves
de Cortegaça
de Évora
de Góis
de Lemos
de Lima
de Matos
de Mello
de Mendonça
de Menezes
de Noronha
de Novais
de Paiva
de Portugal
de Sá
de Sousa
de Ulhoa
de Valadares
de Vila-Viçosa
do Carmo
do Crato
do Vale
do Vinhal
dos Anjos

women - 39
Aldonça
Antónia
Ana
Brígida
Branca
Brites
Beatriz
Cristina
Carolina
Catarina
Constança
Clara
Dulce
Eulália
Eva
Filipa
Filomena
Francisca
Glória
Inês
Isabel
Joana
Leonor
Leopoldina
Lúcia
Luísa
Madalena
Manuela
Margarida
Maria
Marta
Matilde
Raquel
Sancha
Teresa
Urraca
Úrsula
Victória
Violante

Total - 275

[Tulius Hostilius]

There is no Angelina in the list!!!

Now, a bit more serious, I didn’t make any research about these issue, nor I am particularly interested in doing it, but sometimes I deal with Medieval or early Modern transcriptions of documents, so I would like to give my opinion.

About the list: I saw it quite quickly. I didn’t like the name “Baltazar”. It sounds to much “Jewish” (disclaimer: I don’t have anything agaist Jewish people). I believe that in this thread someone had already discussed the Jewish names. I also believe that a surname like Quaresma can have the same origin. Even Mateus…
The idea that I have is that new Christians search their new names in the New Testament and in the names of new Towns. But I can be wrong here.

Names
Bermudo
Raimundo *

Surnames
Bermudes
Raimundes **
Vasques (Vasco is already in the name list)

Bynames
de Riba Douro
da Várzea

Theres are just a couple of ideas.
Of course that would be interesting to take a look in some books, like the “Livro das Linhagens do Conde D. Pedro”, or “Livro das Linhagens do Deão”, or “Livro Velho de Linhagens”… or something like that…

*/** I know that these will remind you two characters, but, if I remember well, they were used in Portugal.

[Ludicus]

Of course that would be interesting to take a look in some books, like the “Livro das Linhagens do Conde D. Pedro”, or “Livro das Linhagens do Deão”, or “Livro Velho de Linhagens”… or something like that…

If you are interested,here is a link to the "Livro de Linhagens" from the largest database about portuguese literature:
http://alfarrabio.di.uminho.pt/vercial/linhagem.htm

[riquinh0]

Tulius:

Exactly the kind of contributions we need!

I did not included Angelina as it seemed a bit too modern. I can be wrong.

Bermudo and Bermudes don't sound like "fairly common".

Removals - Baltazar, Mateus, Quaresma and Raquel (too "jewish" - same disclaimer)

Additions - Raimundo, Raimundes, Vasques, da Várzea and de Riba Douro.

Cheers,

[Tulius Hostilius]

Riuqinh0,
Hheheheh, I can’t make a joke with you! I was joking about Angelina… it reminds always an Hollywood star…

Bermudo and Bermudes are early medieval names from Galicia/Asturias/Portugal (i really don«'t know), it seems that they disappeared from documents in the XII or XIII century.

Ludicus,
Always some good links!
I don't visit Vercial for ages... I completely forgot it... I must return there...

[riquinh0]

Riuqinh0,
Hheheheh, I can’t make a joke with you! I was joking about Angelina… it reminds always an Hollywood star…

I understood that, I only forgot to laugh, lol. Anyway I justified why I took Angelina off (much to my displeasure ).

Bermudo and Bermudes are early medieval names from Galicia/Asturias/Portugal (i really don«'t know), it seems that they disappeared from documents in the XII or XIII century.

Well, even if they were common then (and we don't know that), I have serious doubts anyone would find those as EASILY RECOGNIZABLE.

In the meantime I made some more few changes:

Removals - André (repetition)
Changes - Gama to da Gama (Post #2 by Boicote - because we have too much surnames)
Additions - Codax, Távora, Elvira, Helena, Mafalda (Post #2 by Boicote, didn't find the reason why Manji didn't add these - Mafalda was an "Infanta" of Portugal).

We now have 74 characters, 115 surnames, 52 bynames and 41 women totaling 282. I would like to reach the nice round number of 300, for that we need more male first names (objective ~100) and female first names (objective ~50). I think we have enough surnames and bynames by now.

[finneys13]

I know for a fact that some early Asturian kings were called Bermudo, if that helps.

[Tulius Hostilius]

Yes. There were 3 king with that name. It is also found in another form, with a “v”: Vermudo.
But there are also in Galicia and in Portugal, which had the same language in the early middle ages. For instance in the Trava family, the origin of the Trastamaras.

In another post I only talked until the XIII century, but, I remember now a historical personage. D. João Bermudes, a Portuguese of the XVI century, was the patriarch of the Ethiopian church. He wrote an interesting book: “Breve Relação de embaxada que o Pariarcha dõ João Bermudez trouxe do Emperador de Ethiopia, vulgarmente chamado Preste João”.

I am not saying that it must be there, I am just saying that it seems to me that these names where much more common between the XII and XVI centuries that today. I mean, I was never introduced to someone called Bermudo.

[finneys13]

Sounds like a perfect name to include, with a B or V.

[riquinh0]

If you guys really insist I can include Bermudes. Even if it is not recognisable by Portuguese players, it doesn't sound too bad. Bermudo however sounds very weird to me and really not recognisable.

I would like to remind you guys 3 things:

- We don't really need more surnames.
- Manji set a frontier earlier in this thread at the Renaissance, I suspect the main reason for that was to exclude some names of Asturian or Galician provenience. If this names are early medieval than they have a lot less arguments to be included than Fuas for example. Fuas (remember D. Fuas Roupinho?) is much more recognisable than Bermudo but Manji discarded that name with the argument of being too early medieval. Makes sense to me. (Now that I think about it maybe Codax is a too earlier surname too).
- I really would like that we don't stop too much time with one name and we be practical: there are dozens of more names. I realize you guys like to spend time discussing names, origins of the names and so on but, as my profissional experience is in the Logistics area, I confess it is not my style, sorry.

As a reference here is a list of portuguese prenoms (to my surprise Bermudo is there!) and in the top of that page is a much bigger list of the portuguese prenoms officaly admited by the Portuguese Republic. Maybe you guys could find inspiration in one or the other. We have not dozens but hundreds of more possibilities....

[Manji]

I think it also boils down to our own opinion.
For example, "Guilherme" only appears as a common name late in the 18th century, from "William" and "Wilhem"; this doesn't mean that there wasn't a single "Guilherme" back in the 1400's simply that it was such an outlandish name that no mention of it is to be found in official records.

By the way, some of my sources were:

* A complete account of the Portuguese language, 1701; with, Grammatica Anglo-Lusitanica [by] A. J. (Menston, Scholar Press, 1970.)
* Livro do lançamento e serviço que a Cidade de Lisboa fez a Rei Nosso Senhor no ano de 1565; documentos para a historia da Cidade de Lisboa. (Lisboa: Câmara Municipal, 1947-48)
* Registo Onomástico Português - Da Fundação á Época das Descobertas (Lisboa: Câmara Municipal. 1962)

and the invaluable:

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/julia...uese/data.html

[Ludicus]

Tulius wrote:

The idea that I have is that new Christians search their new names in the New Testament and in the names of new Towns. But I can be wrong here.

Above all,patronymics,my good friend
Read it all here:
http://pwp.netcabo.pt/soveral/mas/ju...staosnovos.htm

Excerpt:

.....O mais interessante documento que conheço sobre os nomes adoptados pelos judeus baptizados é uma genealogia [2]dos cristãos-novos de Barcelos, escrita nos finais do século XVI, onde se inventariam todos os cristãos-novos desta cidade, começando cada família com o judeu baptizado, dando o seu nome original e o nome que então adoptou. E aqui verifica-se o que julgo ter sido a regra geral: os judeus da conversão obrigatória adoptaram sobretudo patronímicos.
De resto, o mesmo acontece com os cristãos-novos que consegui documentar como tal até à Inquisição (1536), amostra onde de facto predominam os patronímicos, assim como certos nomes claramente recuperados dos anteriores nome judeus. A saber: Manuel Alves, Diogo Fernandes, Luiz Álvares, Rui Lopes, António Rebelo, Sebastião Garro, Manuel Lopes, Pedro Homem, Diogo Mendes, Cristóvão de Brito, Fernando Rodrigues, Gabriel Dias, Francisco Lopes, Luiz Lopes, Diogo Nunes, Diogo Mendes, Leonor da Paz, Gaspar Lopes, Miguel Gomes, João Fernandes, Fernando Álvares, Henrique Dias, Cosme Dias, António Gomes, Diogo Fernandes Safim, Luiz Álvares Vitória, Luiz Vaz de Negro, Diogo da Pena, Diogo Vaz, Álvaro de Medina, Simão Fragoso, João Rodrigues, Francisco de Burgos, Francisco Mendes, Gabriel Rodrigues, António Dias e Fernando Lopes.
Portanto, se a maioria usou patronímicos e alguns mantiveram os nomes judeus menos evidentes, outros adoptaram os nomes de famílias pré-existentes, nomeadamente dos respectivos padrinhos, o que, nalguns casos, se documenta....

[riquinh0]

Removals - Guilherme and Codax

[Ludicus]

From Tulius:

I didn’t like the name “Baltazar”. It sounds to much “Jewish” (disclaimer: I don’t have anything agaist Jewish people). I believe that in this thread someone had already discussed the Jewish names. I also believe that a surname like Quaresma can have the same origin. Even Mateus…

By the way,if i still remember it well,D.Fuas Roupinho mother was jewish and he was Afonso Henriques half-brother.

Just a question,why are we carefully avoiding portuguese jewish names?they should be in the game as diplomats and merchants,for instance.
They were very important not only in the early reconquista,but also later during the 12/15 centuries and also during the Discoveries.
And,in the 14 century about 200.000 Jews were living in Portugal (about 20% of population)
They had a huge importance in the economy,politics,expansion,science,etc.
There was a time,in early reconquista,when Christians,Moors and Jews lived togeter im mutal acceptance of their different cultures.And proud we are of all of them.