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Thread: PORTUGUESE Character Names

  1. #121
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Previous post updated.(I said I don´t have time now to check it).
    Oh riquinhO,you really have a short and bad temper.
    Bye bye.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 10, 2007 at 08:24 AM.

  2. #122

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    I have to admit that reading this thread is really funny! Riquinh0 is really bad-tempered! Wow!

    Pra dizer a verdade uma das coisas que mais gostei foi ver o arranca-rabo em portugues de Portugal (desculpem a falta de acentos, pois meu teclado eh americano). Eh realmente interessante como as duas linguas estao se distanciando... As expressoes idiomaticas, os tempos verbais, grafia, etc... Engracado, lendo o Saramago e o Pessoa ou mesmo o Eca (nao tenho cedilhas ) nao tinha essa impressao tao forte...

    Pra botar lenha na fogueira: e o Mateus ? (brincadeirinha...)

  3. #123

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Couldn't we include in the list jewish names that existed solely (or almost solely) in Portugal from the 11th to the 15th century? Note that I'm not talking about the "cristãos novos" names, but the original portuguese-jewish names. But the list would only include the names that existed solely in Portugal because if others(despite being perhaps used portuguese jews themselves) could also have been used by imigrants who would be living in portugal for instance or any other jewish comunity in europe or africa.

    The tough part would be getting an accurate list.

  4. #124

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    This is a damn good soap-opera! Best that in “Globo”!

    And Curucu,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cururu View Post
    arranca-rabo
    “arranca-rabo”!!! heheheheh, I didn't know that expression!!! You definitively must translate it... to European Portuguese! Or to English!

    Just a short story:
    Last year, or in the other I was talking to a Brazilian in the net in English, I propose him to change to Portuguese, and he asked me: “oh! You speak Portuguese?” and, a couple of posts later he said “amazing… I can understand you!” hehehehe

    And, finneys13!

    You have a list… use it and let us discuss a bit more for some months…

    Just don’t close this thread…
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  5. #125

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    @ Tulius

    arranca-rabo, fuzue (circumflexo no e), pega-pra-capar, forrobodo (agudo no ultimo o), aue (circumflexo no e)...
    We Brazilians are very creative with the "ultima flor do Lacio" as Olavo Bilac used to say, even though words like forrobodo come from African dialects, like Banto, I think...

    BTW in the newest GLOBO soap-opera there is a Mateus... ehehehe

    Also, I can relate to your story...I must confess that I can barely understand spoken European Portuguese... No offense but you guys eat up all the vowels... hehehe
    Last edited by Cururu; July 10, 2007 at 10:45 AM.

  6. #126
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Back.Update.
    Here are a lot of surnames that are not included already in the "official" list:

    Abarca, Abasto, Abelha, Abelho, Abranches, Abreu, Aça, Adarga, Adorno, Afonso, Agra, Aguiã, Aguiar,Aguilar, Aires, Alagoa, Alão, Alarcão, Albergaria, Albernás, Albornoz, Alcácova, Alcoforado, Aldana, Alderete, Alfaro, Alma, Almada, Almansa, Alpoim, Altamirano ,Alte, Alva, Alvarado, Alvarenga, Alves, Alvim, Amado, Amador, Ambia, Amorim, Anaia, Andrade, Angulo, Antas, Aragão, Aranha, Arantes, Arca, Arco, Arelhano, Arrais, Arriaga, Arroio, Ataide, Antunes,Araujo, Arruda, Avalos, Avelar, Avila, Azambuja, Azeredo, Baião, Baracho, Barata, Barba, Barbedo, Barbosa, Barbuda, Barradas,Barreto, Barriga, Bastos, Batalha, Batista, Beça,Belém, Beleza, Beltrão, Bem, Bento, Bermudes, Bernardes, Berredo, Bicudo, Borges, Borgonha, Borja, Borralho, Botelho, Brochado, Braga, Bragança, Brandão, Bravo, Breves, Brum, Bulhões, Cabedo, Cabrita, Cáceres, Caiado, Calaça, Calado, Caldas, Caldeira, Caldeirão, Calheiros, Camacho, Camanho, Camara, Camelo, Caminha, Camisão, Camões, Campelo, Campos, Canelas, Carracho,Canto, Cão, Cardim, Cardoso, Carmona, Carneiro, Carrasco, Carreira, Carreiro, Carriço, Carrilho, Carvalhal, Carvalho, Casado, Casal, Castanho, Castela, Castelo, Castelo-Branco, Castilho, Castro, Cerqueira, Cerveira, Coelho, Cordeiro, Cordes, Cordovil, Corte-Real, Couto, Eça, Escudeiro, Esmeraldo, Esteves,Feijó, Felgueiras, Ferreira, Forjaz, Fraga, França, Freire, Furtuoso, Galego, Galhardo, Garrido, Gil, Gois, Gouveia, Guedes, Guerreiro, Guindo, Gusmão, Herédia ,Homem, Horta, Lança, Lapenha, Leão, Leite, Lencastre, Leote, Lima, Limpo, Lobato, Lobo, Loureiro Lourenço, Lucena, Machado, Magalhães , Marques, Martins, Mascarenhas, Mata, Matos, Mateus.Medeiros,Medrano, Melo, Mendonça,Meneses, Mesquita, Mexia, Miranda, Monte, Monteiro, Morães, Moscoso, Mota, Mourão,Mouzinho, Nápoles, Narvais, Negrão,Noronha, Oliva, Padrão, Passanha, Pastor, Peçanha, Pimenta, Pimental, Pimentel, Pinheiro, Porto, Prado,Proença, Quintanilha, Ramos, Rebelo, Refóios, Riscado,Rocha,Rodrigues, Rosa, Rua, Sá, Sacadura, Saldanha, Salgado, Sampaio, Sande, Sandoval, Santana, Santos,Seabra, Seixas, Sequeira, Serpa, Silva, Silveira, Soares, Sodré, Soromenho, Sotomaior, Sousa, Tavora, Teixeira, Torres, Tourinho, Valente, Vargas, Vasconcelos,Vaz,Veiga, Veloso,Viana, Vilhena, Vidal, Vieira, Viveiros, Xavier.


    Tulius,NumerusDecimus,please look at these surnames and choose from this list some consensual surnames to add to our "official list". (I forgot to say "please" to riquinhO,damn...)

    Remove from the list the usual suspects (hehe)

    from Cururu:
    I must confess that I can barely understand spoken European Portuguese
    Hehe.You just need to see some portuguese "soap-operas,telenovelas"
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 10, 2007 at 02:18 PM.

  7. #127

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Ludicus,

    Don’t push me… I don’t know much about names… but I can always give my opinion.

    I still didn’t read the entire list… it’s a big one…

    But, for me I would be suspicious about most names that begun with “al”, most seem to have Arab origin (noooo let’s not have another Jewish conversation, this can be only a problem of my XXI century eyes):
    “Alagoa, Alão, Alarcão, Albergaria, Albernás, Albornoz, Alcácova, Alcoforado, Aldana, Alderete, Alfaro, Alma, Almada, Almansa, Alpoim, Altamirano ,Alte, Alva, Alvarado, Alvarenga, Alves, Alvim”

    There are some accents/tones missing “Tavora”, “Gois” and at least another one… I lost it… (this in the contemporary way of writing it).

    And about our friend Mateus? (I am not joking or initiating another long conversations about him), but that can BE or NOT Jewish related? I don’t recall much Mateus in documents that I read… but again I wasn’t looking… well I remember a Mateus that was ambassador of the Ethiopian Negus to the king of Portugal in the XVI century, but he was called “Armenian”; one thing for sure he has not Portuguese.

    …just some brainstorming comments…

    Edit:
    Cão... hummm... ok, we have Diogo Cão... don't recall anything that I read about the family (if I ever read about it!)... but doesn’t seem a very interesting surname! More an offensive nickname. Just a thought!
    Last edited by Tulius Hostilius; July 11, 2007 at 07:58 AM.
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  8. #128
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Tulius :
    The idea is just only choose from this large list some names to add to the final list.
    Only that.Make a brief list with those names.
    I am asking the same to Numerus Decimus and of course, Manji,and anyone whelse (riquinhO,if you are not in a bad mood today,come back)Boicote is very busy right,but his opinion is precious.
    Only some consensual names,in your opinion.
    May be some names from this list could be added. (or not)

    Just a side note about the name Diogo Cão:
    More an offensive nickname. Just a thought!
    So it was not the name of the famous portuguese navigator?
    His grandfather was Gonçalo Cão.
    (Não foi dele que F.Pessoa dizia):
    O esforço é grande e o homem é pequeno.
    Eu, Diogo Cão, navegador, deixei
    Este padrão ao pé do areal moreno
    E para diante naveguei.
    And:
    D. Frei Gaspar Cão, bispo de S. Tomé + 1572
    Gaspar Cão, pintor do séc. XVI
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 11, 2007 at 09:35 AM.

  9. #129

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Just a side note about the name Diogo Cão:
    So it was not the name of the famous portuguese navigator?
    His grandfather was Gonçalo Cão.
    (Não foi dele que F.Pessoa dizia):

    And:
    D. Frei Gaspar Cão, bispo de S. Tomé + 1572
    Gaspar Cão, pintor do séc. XVI
    http://www.geneall.net/P/fam_page.php?id=222

    Ok! ok!
    Don’t hit more the blind man. I must confess that I only knew about Diogo's dog.

    And I would remove the ones that we can have doubts. In my opinion its better to have less names but more accurate, than more with many doubts. For example, What do you think about the ones that I called "Arabs"?
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  10. #130
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Good approach.Go on, my friend.
    Make a copy and paste with the names you like more and post.

  11. #131

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quick question:
    I was always curious about the origin of my family's names. Seems that you guys are the experts to ask, if you don't mind. So there it goes:
    Felicio --> I was told it is cristao-novo name? Is that really so? Any clues?
    Alencar --> does it really comes from Alencastro?

    cheers,

    Cururu

  12. #132

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by Cururu View Post
    Quick question:
    I was always curious about the origin of my family's names. Seems that you guys are the experts to ask, if you don't mind. So there it goes:
    Felicio --> I was told it is cristao-novo name? Is that really so? Any clues?
    Alencar --> does it really comes from Alencastro?

    cheers,

    Cururu
    Hhehehehe… experts… heheheheeh…

    Hummm, don't know...

    Alencar reminds me Alenquer, in Portuguese Estremadura, northeast from Lisbon. I don’t know if there is a city with the same name in Brazil.

    Felicio must have a Latin origin. About new-Christians names Ludicus posted a link with a list of some usual ones.

    Eidt: How is your Reconquista mod?
    Last edited by Tulius Hostilius; July 11, 2007 at 11:12 AM.
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  13. #133
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Seems that you guys are the experts
    If there is one true expert here, it is probably Manji.
    Ask him.
    Felicio it is a latin name,if i am not wrong.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 11, 2007 at 11:20 AM.

  14. #134

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Concerning names of muslim origin, couldn't we include those? Just the names that actually evolved and thus created unique portuguese names that are of muslim origin.

    For instance, Fátima I think, is an example of what I'm talking about.
    I am asking the same to Numerus Decimus and of course, Manji,and anyone whelse (riquinhO,if you are not in a bad mood today,come back)Boicote is very busy right,but his opinion is precious.
    Unfortunately, while I'm minimably informed about the miths concerning the orgiin of portuguese names and somewhat familiarized with this topic, I still don't have the necessary knowledge of insight to help you guys with the tasks being requested, I simply don't have the necessary sources or expertise. I could help with one of another simple thing, but beyond that I don't know much. That's why I said it would be difficult to get an accurate list of jewish names that would solely exist in portugal and the same for portuguese names of muslim origin.
    Last edited by numerosdecimus; July 11, 2007 at 11:21 AM.

  15. #135

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulius Hostilius View Post
    For example, What do you think about the ones that I called "Arabs"?
    I wouldn't call any given name starting with "Al" a Arabic origin but your reasoning is correct, most place names and given names with the "Al-" prefix usually are of Arabic origin.

    Some names you posted are of Mozarabic origin, which makes things even harder to decided because Mozarabic culture spanned both old Visigothic nomenclature as well as Late Latin and Arabic sources.

    Just to name a few that I think should be in the list:

    Alão - from "Alans", the germanic tribe. Alão was also used to describe a hunting dog (a "cão alão" or "cão alano" was a non-specific breed many historians attribute to the ancestor of the Perdigueiro Português and the Rafeiro Alentejano.)

    Alva - from the latin "Alba"; used as first name (female) and surname.

    Alvim - same source as Alva and possibly a corruption of "Albano/Alvano/Alvim".

    Alarcão - possibly a epithet, of arabic origin, but attributed solely to peninsular christians.

    Alagoa - a byname derivative from "da lagoa" hence "of the lagoon, residing near the lagoon".

    Alves - patronym, "son of Álvaro"

    Araujo - placename later converted to surname. Possible latin origin.

    Ludicus, I might have some time next Friday to browse the entire list, I'll try, can't promise though, to have a complete name-by-name check of the entire list.

    Just a last note for Cururu: names, surnames and their origin is a very tricky business; even if you do have a name that was common with New Christians you might not have a single one of them in your family line; that or you could have a old fashioned Old Christian name (think "Afonso José Espada") and still have New Christian ancestors. Names and naming conventions changed a lot specifically when Portuguese settlers around the globe started making new names for themselves and giving more importance to aesthetic choices rather than tradition.
    浪人 - 二天一

  16. #136
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Ludicus, I might have some time next Friday to browse the entire list, I'll try, can't promise though, to have a complete name-by-name check of the entire list.
    Great

    Alencar --> does it really comes from Alencastro?
    Well, the dictionnary is a good friend.

    From the "Dicionário Onomástico Etimológico da Língua Portuguesa" de José Pedro Machado,
    a palavra Alencar é um nome próprio, devendo por isso escrever-se em maiúsculas, usado como apelido de família (ex.: José de Alencar), sendo forma antroponímica variante de Alenquer.
    Bingo,Tulius!
    Alencar reminds me Alenquer
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 11, 2007 at 11:35 AM.

  17. #137

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    @ Tulius Hostilius

    Behind the question of the apparent Semitic (or Christian in your opinion) origin of Baltazar, did you understand my point about it?
    The real question is: Should it be, or not in the list? In my opinion: No.
    Semitic is not Jewish only (Any Arab will tell you that). And there are many names which are strictly Jewish origin but still solely Christian.We all know them. Shortly, look here http://www.penitents.org/saintsdirectory.htm, index of Catholic baptismal names. And yes, it shouldn't be in the list but for utterly different reason than yours (see my previous post). The name I suppose migrated initially with Habsburgs (it was extremely popular in South Germany) to Spain in 16th. So Portugal could have King Balthasar after all http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthas...ce_of_Asturias.

    Another question, what is www.sca.org? Thanks in advance.
    www.sca.org the Society of Creative Anachronism - historical roleplayers, who, among other things, interested in accurate names for every historical epoch. Btw, speking of sca.org, here http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/n...FullNames.html is , at least, one Portugese feminine name.

    About Froissart, a most prominent historian of the XV century, we can’t expect to read it by the letter, all, or at least about Portuguese names, I mean, we was not Portuguese, we don’t know if we spoke fluently Portuguese (at least I don’t know), the Portuguese words could seems a bit strange to him, or not? Then we have always the problem of the copies, and how they reached to us… We can have some more solid position if we compare whit other documents! …
    As it looks the names had been slightly gallicized only.

    Sorry, I didn’t understand this sentence!
    Do you mean that I don’t know well Portuguese medieval nobility? Of course not… I was born in the XX century!... but I did some study about a few Portuguese early medieval noble families… maybe we can talk about it...

    Edit:
    Martim Afonso de Melo and
    Vasco Martins de Melo, 3rd grandson of Mem Soares de Melo, Lord of Castanheira, lived in the Solar Melo for order of D. Leonor Teles and count Frenandes de Andeiro,

    The other Merlo must be also a Melro, I men Melo.
    Personal aquaintance isn't required. De Merlo are still de Merlo in France and in Sicily.

  18. #138

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    Otark, nice to see you back after all this time!!! I am always happy when someone studies the history of Portugal, the origins of its names, and wants to know even more… so we can always learn together.

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    Semitic is not Jewish only (Any Arab will tell you that).
    But… I am not Arab, and I can also tell you that!

    About Prince Baltazar Carlos; isn’t he from the XVII century? I guess the sample is out of our timescale! Or maybe I am wrong. But if we are talking about the XVII century I can give you more examples, we don’t need a prince: Baltazar de Sousa Colmeiro Teles de Tavora; Baltazar de Sousa Colmieiro Teles Coutinho; Baltazar Teles de Menezes; or even in the end of the XVI century we have the famous Jesuit Baltazar Teles who wrote a fascinating history of Ethiopia.
    On the other side the “Filipes” were always seen as a foreign dynasty… that is why in December 1640 there was the “Restauração”.

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    www.sca.org the Society of Creative Anachronism - historical roleplayers, who, among other things, interested in accurate names for every historical epoch. Btw, speking of sca.org, here http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/n...FullNames.html is , at least, one Portugese feminine name.
    Thanks! That society seems Creative! I will have a look!
    And yes, in the 2nd link I found some names used both in Portugal and Spain.

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    As it looks the names had been slightly gallicized only.
    You probably know this… but here it goes… the Portuguese and the Galician were the same language in the early medieval period, and by the XV century, when Froissart wrote the text, the separation was not entirely complete. Even today there are many similarities.

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    Personal aquaintance isn't required. .
    Yep!

    Quote Originally Posted by otark View Post
    De Merlo are still de Merlo in France and in Sicily.
    I didn’t know that. I think that Merlo means blackbird in Italian. Did Froissart spoke Italian? It can be indeed an explanation.
    Um dia destes vou mudar a minha assinatura.

  19. #139

    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    @Tulius Hostilius

    Well, the same name can't be Jewish in 15th and Catholic in XVII!
    If you'll acknowledge that Balthasar don't sounds Jewish for you any more I'll be fully satisfied.

  20. #140
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: PORTUGUESE Character Names

    famous Jesuit Baltazar Teles who wrote a fascinating history of Ethiopia.
    Jew jesuit? (j/joking )

    Well, the same name can't be Jewish in 15th and Catholic in XVII!
    Hmm..good point.Or not? just asking.

    In this list,I don´t see the name Baltasar: ( portuguese jewish names before conversion)
    B - Bacoa, Bagally, Barnabé, Barrocas, Barrobe, Bari, Baru/Barru, de Barbova, Baquis, Beacar/Beaçar/Beatar, Bega, Beiçudo/Beyçudo, Beiro, Belacide, Belhamym, Benafull, Benafaçom, Benazo, Benjamim, Bemzamerro Benziza, Beuafaçom, Bichacho, Bieudo, Bixorda, Brafanez, Bono, Boym;
    http://pwp.netcabo.pt/soveral/mas/ju...staosnovos.htm

    Anyway,I read somewhere this: «origem onomástica: do Hebraico "Que o deus Baal proteja o rei".»
    Hmmm.

    However,in the "Portuguese Names from the 16th Century" (Letters from the Court of King John III) there is the name Belchior (well,not Baltasar)
    http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/portugal16.htm
    And in this link about medieval jewish names,I haven´t found the name Baltasar
    http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/jewish.shtml

    May be Manji could enlight us.Of course,this is not important.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 11, 2007 at 08:26 PM.

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