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Thread: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

  1. #21

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Thanks Procopius!

    I just have some doubts (because I still have to read again all the books I have on the argument).

    First, cataphract. I remember that in Komnemian Army they weren't the incredibly slow and heavy cavalry as in the past and they were restricted to the imperial Scholae while the bulk of the cavalry was made by the Pronoia nobles and clients.

    Second, your list lacks of the cretean archers who replaced the Varangian Guard as imperial units till the fall of Constantinople.

    Can you help me on these points?

  2. #22

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    Glad to be of any help.

    The Cretan Archers you mention appeared very late in Byz. history, during the 15th century, just a few decades before the fall of Constantinople. Also, I had already included the Mourtatoi guard archers in my list. These were a much earlier 13th century unit with the same function. I see no point in including two units with the same role. The Mourtatoi are better documented, so I chose them.

    You are right that the Komnenian katephractoi were not the old East Roman heavy cavalry with armoured horses, which had vanished by the 1070s.

    The problem is that during the Komnenian period the term kataphractos was used to describe any heavy cavalry, including western knights. In this sense all the heavy cavalry on my list, doryphoroi, Latinikon, and Frangoi would all be classified by a Byz. general as types of katephractoi.

    The pronia you speak of was a method of paying troops, not a type of troop. It was as you know a grant of land or tax revenue, but it could be given to support any type of soldier or even a government official. So for instance a Latinikon knight could be a pronia holder. For that reason I don't agree with games where pronia allagia are treated as a particular type of unit. They weren't.

    Unfortunately neither is it so simple as to say that native heavy kataphractoi existed only in the Imperial guard in the Komnenian period. In 1080 there was only one horse guard unit, the Athanatoi, which had survived the chaos of the 1070s. But the Athanatoi were destroyed at Dyrrachion in 1081 as a fighting force, and there is no mention of them after 1090, so I don't think they should be included in this mod.

    So what type of troop was the native elite kataphractoi of the Komnenian period? It seems that instead of being stationed in large guard units at Constantinople, from the reign of John Komnenos (1118 onwards) they were brigaded with the regular cavalry in the provinces, where they were supported by their pronia estates. In my list I have described this regular native cavalry as Doryphoroi "lancers". In times of war, the best trained and equipped of these doryphoroi were seperated into special units which 12th century writers call "picked lancers". These elite troops are the kataphractoi of my list. They are not Imperial guards.

    The rest of the cavalry were the ordinary doryphoroi.

    How were the "picked lancers"- the elite native kataphractoi- equipped? This is the description of Anna Komnena from the Alexiad:

    "They were mounted on horseback, with their breast plates of iron and helmets on their heads they flashed like lightning. Their horses alert with pricked up ears, their shields clashing on one another, the brilliant gleam of their armour and their helmets struck terror into the enemy."

    Notice the riders are very heavily armoured but there is no mention of horse armour. By the mid 12th century the Emperor Manuel I was equipping these troops in a style identical to western knights. However descriptions of 12th century battles make it clear that Roman heavy cavalry used the mace instead of the sword as their second weapon.

    So, Komnenian katephractoi should be heavily armoured men with lances and maces on unarmoured horses. They were similar to Western knights, but as a "picked" elite they should be better than the Latinikon and the Doryphoroi. They should not be as good as the Frangoi (Normans) who were regarded as the best heavy cavalry in the empire.

    My source on all this is the Development of the Komnenian Army 1081-1180 by John Birkenmeier.

    There is a good picture of a 12th century kataphractos in plate A of the Osprey book Byz Armies 1118-1461

    The generals bodyguard unit should be equipped as kataphractoi and called "Hetairea" (companions). This is the only term used by 12th century writers to describe the Emperor's mounted bodyguard on the battlefield. Each powerful noble ("dynatoi") also had his own hetairea. These are the nobles and retainers you mention. They can be represented by the generals bodyguard unit also. The term Scholae was out of date.

    There are some other Byz units I forgot to mention in my list:
    Hetairea: Generals bodyguard
    Tzangratoroi: crossbowmen
    Gazmouloi: marines
    Amogavaroi: Almughavars from Catalonia
    Skopetoi: handgunners
    Patzinakoi: Pecheneg horse archers.

    I will edit my original list so you can see all my suggested units in one place.

    Glad to be of any help.
    Last edited by Re Berengario I; March 04, 2007 at 07:46 AM.

  3. #23
    Tadzreuli's Avatar Chevalier Blanche
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    And what fractions will be in the new version?

  4. #24

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadzreuli View Post
    And what fractions will be in the new version?
    This thread is about the new rosters for existing factions.

    New factions will be implemented once this work and the revision of the buildings will be complete.

    I already have some clear ideas about which new factions will be included and their names will be revelead when they will be completed.

  5. #25
    Manuel Komnenos's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    For cataprachts, they really have changed in Komnenian army but two types of heavy armored cavarly remains - Hetariea and i don't know is this their greek name - Immortals, elite cavarly, we have crusaders reports of their strenght, and they were used also in Paleologian army, but only in few numbers. But in Komnenian army they played significant role.
    Look the guy in the middle.
    Last edited by Manuel Komnenos; April 25, 2007 at 02:00 PM.
    Why we dig up the past? To understand it.

  6. #26

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    I don't mean to annoy, but is it possible to make the Skutatoi multi-role fighters? The ones i recall from the Komnenic army were spear first, sword second units, with a Kontos and then a spathion or paramerion in addition to their shield. While spearmen first, they were well able to use their 'secondary' weapon once closed with the enemy.

    Other than that, i very much appreciate the excellence of your Byzantine roster.

  7. #27
    aves's Avatar Military Historian
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    I too would love to see a mutli-role capibility for the Skutatoi (poor Byzantines need all the help they can get)

  8. #28

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel Komnenos View Post
    and i don't know is this their greek name - Immortals,
    Athanatoi (Thanatos = dead, "a" as a negation = not possible to die).

    Unfortunately we can't give a special unit to the faction leader and give them to every named character would take away their "specialness".
    What I already did, which is pretty logical and very real, was to give to the faction leader and faction heir units a lot more experience than the normal general units. So the only difference from reality is just the name (Athanatoi for the basileus, Serjeants at Arms for english kings, Exemptati for the venetian doge, etc) while their essence, alas very experienced and tough troops, is reproduced.
    Last edited by Re Berengario I; May 04, 2007 at 10:23 PM.

  9. #29
    Beorix's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    I'm interested by your mod, which looks great, concerning the AI and text modifications..
    I'm also impressed by the graphical enhancement, especially the units you have reskinned ,(anglo-normands) and their banners
    Are they available now, in the downloadable beta, or is it just a "preview" ?
    Thanks for your answer.
    Phil

  10. #30

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    It's just a preview, new skins and model will probably released faction per faction unless someone else will help me with that huge work.

  11. #31

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    My suggestion is more concerned with the unit balance in the edu, will you also be considering methods for increasing the integration of units in battle, ontop of PB's ideas.

    I try to assign the mass of my units according to their usage rather than just their weight, so shock troops will be able to penetrate deep into enemy formations eg. A charge of forlorne hope may open up a spear formation, but to reflect the recklessness you may also want to reduce their defence skill.
    Popular superstition is still superstition.

  12. #32

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel Komnenos View Post
    For heavy armored cavarly ... in Komnenian army they played significant role. Look the guy in the middle.
    That picture was made by a drawer who knows little about horses. Bearing such an armour and a rider needed a much larger and heavy horse. War horses are looking as big Percherons and not as those arabian blooded " thoroughbred " created centuries later.

    Those big war horses could crush arabian cavalry and greatly helped to conquer the Kingdom of Jerusalem. But later they suffered from the climate and knights could not find local horses to subtitute. Therefore they lost their main asset... and were throw out of Palestine.

  13. #33
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Etairiai the byzantines called all the mercenary units they owned.Etairia ton frangon (latin mersenaries) and so on...The comanding officer some times was of their own faction and had the titlle Etairiarches
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  14. #34

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Two things I forgot to mention about the Byzantines:

    The Byz. term for Greek fire ships was "Nees pyrphoroi".

    The correct title for the heir to the imperial throne in the Komnenian period is "Sebastokrator".

  15. #35

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Here is a list of dyes used in Anglo-Saxon england by the lower classes.

    Tansy
    Dyers Greenweed
    Weld
    Weld and Sorrel root
    Weld and Iron


    Most of these you could pick in the fields aroudn your house.

    More expensive but still affordable for a more successful lower classman

    Seaweed - Bladderwrack
    Clavophora Rupestris
    Lady's Bedstraw root and alkali and clubmoss
    Lady's Bedstraw root and clubmoss


    Also a note on the earlier discussion.


    All these colors are VERY BRIGHT, but, they FADE FAST. Perhaps the answer is a mixture of unsaturated and saturated colors to typify the fact that not everyone had dyed/redyed their clothes at the same time. Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Shaba Wangy; June 06, 2007 at 08:54 AM.

  16. #36
    Lord Romanus III's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Could I possibly ask for a specific unit? Such as Byzantine Infantry. Armed with shields, swords, and lamellar. I loved the old MTW1 Byzantine Infantry. It should preferably be available early, but not be uber. Traits something like:disciplined? Thank you for your time.

    Cordially,
    Lord Romanus III

  17. #37
    Boztorgai_Khan's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    is Pechenegs or Kypchaks ( Cumans ) Find in this MOD ??
    Of Think you add that 2 Factions ???



    MOD's: >>> K-MTW2 & EW MOD & BC MOD <<< BoZToRGai KHaN

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    http://www.cumankipchaksgroup.com/ (Coming Soon..!!!)


  18. #38

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Sebastokrator was not a rank itself, only a honorific title, born from the union of two other honorific titles: Autokrator (Self-ruler, that was commonly a title of the Basleus itself) and Sebastos (Majesty). The firts Sebastokrator was Isaac Komnenos, Alexios' brother. This title (wich means "Venerable Ruler") had very little real power within, but meaned a close relation with the Basileus.

    Alexios I Komnenos also created the title "Protosebastos" ("More than Majesty"), "Panhypersebastos" (Majesty of Majesties) and many other titles adding "Pan", "Hyper" or "Proto".

    The title usually associated to the heir of the Crown was "Kaisar" (Caesar), a legacy from the old Tetrarchy government form of Dioclecian.

    "Basileopator" was the title given to Basileus' father, who had no need to had been an Emperor.

    Besides, we must realize that there was not really a stablished succession system, like happened in the old Roman Empire. The common way to stablish the Basileus' heir in order to maintain the dinasty in the throne was to "associate" the son, as he could become co-emperor.

    Other titles, more military and of real power, such as Megas Domestikós, Protospatharios (General's assistant), Protokentarchós (a battlefield commander), Megas Doux (Fleet's commander), Megas Konostaulós (early he was the leader of the roman chivalry, later became the Frankish chivalry mercenaries commander), Akolouthós (leader of the Varangian Guard, a very powerful man in Constantinople court), should be considered to be a gift from the Emperor to his generals.

    About the Varangian Guard, it was stablished by Basil II Bulgaroctonos in late Xth Century. 6000 varangian vikings sent by the Prince of Kiev as a tribute to the Emperor, and this elite unit shall remain until 1204, when most of its members died during the attack and sake of Constantinople by the hand of venetian crusaders.

    I hope it will help you. Keep on the good work!
    "Déu és beure bé, menjar fresc i llevar-se a les deu"
    (God is to drink well, to eat fresh and to wake up at ten)
    ------ from the Catalan "Inquisition Trials Archive"



    Cèsar de Quart
    Europe 1200 Team Member


  19. #39

    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    ive installed the mod but everytime i go to play n click on a faction to start the game crashes any help?

  20. #40
    ComnenusTheOne's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: AD: New Factions Rosters Discussion Thread

    Its dead as a mod, u wont get any help here.

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