Bravest Last Stand

[Farnan]

What do you believe was the bravest last stand? Was it Thermopolaye? The Alamo? Little Big Horn? Colonel Frost and the British Airborne at Arnheim?

To me the bravest last stand was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. A few Jewish men and women, vastly outnumber, malnurushed, with few weapons and little ammunition rose up to make a last stand against the Nazi occupiers. Nearly all of them knew they were going to die in the fight, but they fought anyway. They knew they were going to die anyway, but they wished to make a stand to be remembered and to show the Nazis that Jewish men and women were not weak. The 34 fighters survived the war, one of them later participated in Poland's fight against Communism, most of the others later went to Israel. It took 47 days for the uprising to be finally put down, lasting longer than France and the Low Countries...

[Anachronist]

Thermopylæ

[Sétanta]

I dunno, something in an urban environment, fighting house to house to the last man has always seemed extremely brave to me. So either the Warsaw Uprising or perhaps the Battle of Berlin.

[Harbringerxv8]

Dien Bien Phu. Despite being outnumbered four to one, being completely cut off from supplies even from the air towards the end, and being constantly shelled by an enemy with over a hundred guns in elevated positions, the French defenders managed to cause 23,000 casualties against the famed General Giap, while taking 7,000 of their own. Lasting from March 13 to May 7, 1954, the Giap's brilliance had negated all of the French advantages except for a dogged determination. The resulted in over half of the Viet Minh soldiers involved in the battle being either killed or wounded.

[ScottishAdam]

I would say the way most of the scottish army ran over the top accross the somme to soak up the german machine gun bullets. Including my great grandad to leave the way for the rest of the british army.

Or in the medieval times when the scots fought for freedom at Bannockburn even although starving, outnumbered and no armour.

i may be bias as im scottish but this has not to be forgoten.

The polish charging into the german tanks was extremely brave too

[Lemo_26]

The Jerusalem wars;
Titus had a vastly superior numbers, and the best soldiers in the world. However the Jews were still able to hold out for a long period of time. I think this was the best last stand cause it actually was a last stand. One chance for the Jews to keep there freedom or suffer at the hands of the Romans. Up to 500 jews were crucified a day during the battle.

If the spartans fall the city of sparta is sill free salamas not thermopalye (bad speller) won the persian war.

[Hex Khan]

I personally have three i cant quite decide
Stalingrad
Thermopylae
dunkirk

stalingrad was an epic fight with for a while both the germans and soviets fighting for survival for a city which for some reason became the equivelant to jerusalem in the crusades almost overnight for either side...

Thermopylae has that unique romance to it, the three hundred spartans and their king marching to die, along with their thespian allies and other greeks against the might of the largest empire known at that time,
"Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here loyal to their laws we lie" beautiful epitaph

Dunkirk wasnt all that grand but it shows the shining example of humanity in war, all the british sailors, civilians, military alike coming by their droves to shuttle the tattered brits and french back to blighty, its got charm

[Kaapeli]

Japanese defensive battles during the WW2. Unbeliavable self sacrifice when the situation was completely hopeless and there was almost nothing to gain. Sure, it wasn't smart but extremely brave.

[Romanos]

Simple and quit clichéd the battle of Thermopylae, what could be better 298 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans against 120 000 soldiers of the multicultural empire of Persia.

[Janissary]

Simple and quit clichéd the battle of Thermopylae, what could be better 298 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans against 120 000 soldiers of the multicultural empire of Persia.

You watch to many movies. The so called 300 spartans didn't exist. There were minimum of 3000 Spartans and I am not counting the other greeks yet.

[Delvecchio1975]

You watch to many movies. The so called 300 spartans didn't exist. There were minimum of 3000 Spartans and I am not counting the other greeks yet.

on the last day of fighting there was 300 spartans and 700 thespians. they stayed behind to give the other Greeks (from all around, but NO spartans) the chance to retreat.
the first two days of fighting there were around 5000 Greeks defending the pass.

[Phoebus]

You watch to many movies. The so called 300 spartans didn't exist. There were minimum of 3000 Spartans and I am not counting the other greeks yet.

No offense, but your information is not exactly accurate either. :original:

There were as many as 7,000 Hellenes altogether, led by 299 Lacedaemonian Peers. It's a misconception that there were 300; 2 departed prior to the battle due to an inflamation of the eyes that rendered them blind, but one (IIRC) returned for the showdown, nonetheless.* 1,000 of the Hellenes--the Phocians--were not part of the battle, but guarded the pass that led around Thermopylae.

On the final, 3rd day the surviving Lacedaemonians (it's a misconception that all of them made it), Thespians (however many remained of their 700 original) and Thebans (however many remained of their 400 original) sallied forth from the pass and engaged the Persians in open ground. The survivors retreated to the hill by the entrance of the pass with the body of Leonidas and died to a man.

* The surviving blind Lacedaemonian got better. He was humiliated in Sparta, though, and fought suicidally at Plataea to redeem his honor. The Peers, however, felt his courage was of the wrong type.

[conon394]

Phoebus

I'd go one better and say I don't buy Herodotus's picked fathers story - I guess they were not just peers but Leonidas' bodyguard the elite of the peers as it were.

edit - Herodotus is possibly also guilty of ignoring several hundred non-peer Lacedaemonians.
He notes 4000 Greeks fighting when quoting an epitaph for the Greeks, and Diodorus provides a total of 1000 Lacedaemonians.

[jankren]

Japanese defensive battles during the WW2. Unbeliavable self sacrifice when the situation was completely hopeless and there was almost nothing to gain. Sure, it wasn't smart but extremely brave.

No doubt the Japaneses last stands in Iwo Jima and other islands were incredibly brave and proven.

Simple and quit clichéd the battle of Thermopylae, what could be better 298 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans against 120 000 soldiers of the multicultural empire of Persia.

We will never know whether the story was true or just another Greek legend or at least greatly exaggerated. Anyway, if I was Cyrus or any other Persian general during the battle of Thermopylae, I would have used at least 20.000 skilled Persian bowmen to rain their arrows on the Greek phalanxes without confronting them hand-to-hand.

[Drtad]

Battle of Vartanantz: Armenian General Vartan Mamikonian's fight to protect his peoples Christian faith from the Zoroastrian Persians. Persians had 220,000 troops, including immortals and elephants. Vartan had 60,000 infantry and cavalry. A brave last stand, and successful in that the Persians backed off the religious conversion.

2nd Sasun Resistance: General Andranik of Armenia fighting to protect 20,000 remaining Armenians of Sasun. He had 500 men, while the Ottomans had 50,000 Turks and Kurds with heavy guns. Andranik defeated them, even so outnumbered and outpowered, saving 20,000 from massacre.

Thermopylae comes in at a close three.

[Giorgos]

No doubt the Japaneses last stands in Iwo Jima and other islands were incredibly brave and proven.

i agree.

We will never know whether the story was true or just another Greek legend or at least greatly exaggerated. Anyway, if I was Cyrus or any other Persian general during the battle of Thermopylae, I would have used at least 20.000 skilled Persian bowmen to rain their arrows on the Greek phalanxes without confronting them hand-to-hand.

they did. in fact that's how they killed the last strugglers that amassed on that hill. with arrows. they didn't even give them the honor they deserved by killing them in close combat. they took the easy way out. let's give those dead(greek and persians) the honor they deserve and let's not hide behind this latest wave of hitorical revision that tries to sweep everything in it's path.

[Romanos]

We will never know whether the story was true or just another Greek legend or at least greatly exaggerated. Anyway, if I was Cyrus or any other Persian general during the battle of Thermopylae, I would have used at least 20.000 skilled Persian bowmen to rain their arrows on the Greek phalanxes without confronting them hand-to-hand.

What do you mean by "another Greek legend". Arrows would have been useless at the beginning of the first day; the phalanx was almost impregnable to missiles, of course arrows where finally use by that time the Greek army was half its original size.

[SickBoy13]

Battle of Vartanantz Fields.
Van Resistance
Warsaw Uprising

[cegorach]

Battle of Vartanantz Fields.
Van Resistance
Warsaw Uprising

Which one ?

I assume that you mean the Ghetto, because the Warsaw Uprising in 1944 wasn't last stand and even if there was no help from anybody it still ended in a honorable capitulation to save the remaining civilians ( agreement broken by the Germans later) after 63 days of struggle when the possibility of a relief dropped to zero.:hmmm:


@Farnan

What do you believe was the bravest last stand? Was it Thermopolaye? The Alamo? Little Big Horn? Colonel Frost and the British Airborne at Arnheim?

Does the term really include the Arnhem fight of the British division ? How do you actually define heavy losses ?

Maybe it should be reduced to such battles where noone or almost noone survived ?

After all there were situations where the defenders suffered lesser losses than expected e.g. at Westerplatte in 1939 - Poles lost only 15 dead despite 7 day struggle against forces at least 20 times larger. Could it be called a last stand too ?

Just wonder...

[SickBoy13]

St. Vartan's forces were mostly made up of untrained peasants too, for a large amount of his calvary (Nobles) defected out of fear. Drtad, you must obviously celebrate May 26. And, that battle is also why the Catholics call us heretics as Monophysites. Hands tied during war, and the Chaldean Council goes on without representation, how kind and fair, but that is a matter of ethics, not history.
Andranik was your grandfather correct? I had relatives in Sasun and Van, although those in Van did not survive.