Egypt / Ptolemaics

[tone]

Ideas / links / pictures for the Egypt faction here please

[pseudocaesar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

it has a great map, lists of family names. so at 280bc the faction leader should be Ptolemy II Philadelphus and he would be married to Arsinoe. The faction heir would be Ptolemy III Euergetes.

here is one on ptolemaic egypt as a whole, as the first one focuses on the family aspect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Empire


MAP


il try to get some more, purely historical sites or something to show. but its a start

[Tyr]

Their faction placement is perfectly historical as it is, or at least it will be with my reccomended changes to dvk.

Tone, if you were looking for inspiration (particularly what units they should get exactly and what they should be called) I would reccomend looking at Lusteds Terrae Expugnadae (Or download it, I dont think you have it..).

[tone]

I have now - downloaded yesterday to get Dii warrior.

[cherryfunk]

pseudocaesar, very cool map -- can you reduce the size a bit though, or post a thumbnail?

Some ideas for Egypt's units:

It would be nice if we could create an AOR Meroite unit, perhaps a heavy infantry or heavy cavalry to give their armies a bit of punch. And possibly a Kushite warior unit, a disciplined, shield-bearing skirmisher or something (could you apply the Nubian Warrior skin to a skirmisher?)

Also, African elephants (the small kind) should be recruitable down around Meroe.

[fguerin]

An other unit that would be cool for them to have is the quinquireme. Remember that Actium battle between Cleopatra/Mark Antony and Octavian? Egypt had powerful but slow moving ships, that why they lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Actium
Have a nice day,

François

[pseudocaesar]

yeh but they would have been roman designed and built quinq's dont forget.

[tone]

Can we put together a unit roster to guide me please?

[Tyr]

Can we put together a unit roster to guide me please?

Like I said, for that I'd say look at what Lusted has done for the Egyptians; not over complicated, yet has the required depth, and the bonus of being historical.

[pseudocaesar]

http://spartanwarband.com/gallery/mo.../PtolemaicFoot

[removeduser_426582376423734]

I can come up with a few units, if you need.

Chariot (archers only - for 2 reasons. Too easy to kill everything if normal and historically accurate as Egyptians only really used archers on chariots)

Marine archers - very effectively used in Ancient Egypt. Maybe this could be a new ship type? Lower defense but higher attack (they could not fight well hand-to-hand, but could attack from a distance)?

Triremes. Egypt is one of the inventors of the trireme - noone really knows who made them, but Egypt is a calculated guess by many.

For Egypt's army - you said you wanted 'Legio'-esque units? What about the 4 gods that the army was split up into? Amon, Ptah, Seth and Ra?

Composite bowmen - introduced by the Hittites and Hyksos. VERY powerful bows at both long and short range.

Sherden Pirates - very skilled mercenaries, carrying a gladius like sword. However, they originate from Turkey, so should they be a part of another faction (Scythia, Seleucia)?

Thats all I can think of at the moment.

[Tyr]

Chariot (archers only - for 2 reasons. Too easy to kill everything if normal and historically accurate as Egyptians only really used archers on chariots)

Not realistic

Marine archers - very effectively used in Ancient Egypt. Maybe this could be a new ship type? Lower defense but higher attack (they could not fight well hand-to-hand, but could attack from a distance)?

Not realistic

For Egypt's army - you said you wanted 'Legio'-esque units? What about the 4 gods that the army was split up into? Amon, Ptah, Seth and Ra?

God no, please do not give dvk any ideas...do you know how much of a struggle it was in getting some legion equivalents removed.....

Sherden Pirates - very skilled mercenaries, carrying a gladius like sword. However, they originate from Turkey, so should they be a part of another faction (Scythia, Seleucia)?

Not realistic

[Tyr]

Please do, show me those links that say Chariot Archers were common in the armies of the Ptolemies.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Should've read the second word of the title...

[dvk901]

"I'm not sure what that was in referance too...I said nothing about the Roman Legions"................

The armies of the 4 gods of Egypt. Good idea if it was still used in Ptolemaic Eygpt. A particular unit name or combination of units doesn't require different skins, just different 'entries' in 'export_descr_units.txt'. That's what I meant.

[Tyr]

And I meant the issues concerning historical accuracy, and the previous suggestions concerning the Warriors of Tant and Greek Legions, hence the:

God no, please do not give dvk any ideas...do you know how much of a struggle it was in getting some legion equivalents removed.....

[dvk901]

And I meant the issues concerning historical accuracy, and the previous suggestions concerning the Warriors of Tant and Greek Legions, hence the:

What? Are you saying I'm stubborn and pig-headed now?

[cherryfunk]

The Seleucids used chariots, are you sure the Egyptians wouldn't, Tyr?

[removeduser_426582376423734]

I believe that the Ptolemies may have put a stop to that - yet, there is no real literature to specify either way.

[cherryfunk]

Here are some descriptions of battles the Ptolemites fought with the Seleucids:

Battle of Raphia
Antiochus began winning at the beginning of the battle when Antiochus's larger elephants drove off Ptolemies elephants. Note the Ptolemies used African elephants, the Selueucids used Indian.

Ptolemy owed his victory in part to having a well equipped and trained native Egyptian Phalanx which formed a large proportion of his phalangites (exactly how much is subject to academic dispute).

Also:

The two armies that fought at Raphia were typical of their time. The new Ptolemaic army of Ptolemy IV Philopater (Father loving Pharaoh) consisted of 70,000 infantry, 5,000 cavalry, and 73 African Elephants. The Seleukid army of Antiochus III Megas consisted of 62,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, and 102 Indian elephants. The two armies were arrayed virtually identical with both having a solid center of phalangites with the heavy cavalry divided equally between the wings of the army. In front of the cavalry are the elephants with archers and psiloi to support them, and if need be bring them down.

Battle of Panium
Details of this battle are not clear, but it is known today that major factor in the Seleucid victory was that the Seleucid army used the cataphract in a decisive manner. The cataphracts attacked the Egyptian cavalry on the flanks and drove the enemy cavalry off, leaving the backs of the enemy infantry to the front of the line exposed. The Seleucid cataphracts then attacked their infantry in the rear, thus leading to an Egyptian rout.

This is also interesting:

Antiochus meant to with this invasion strengthen Seleukid power and avenge the humiliation caused by the peace that ended the Third Syrian War (245-241 B.C.). Before long he held the important ports of Seleucia-in-Piera, Tyre, and Ptolemais. Meanwhile in Egypt there was a crisis as the invasion had caught Ptolemy IV off guard and unable to handle the situation Ptolemy gave control to his trusted minister Sosibus. Sosibus immediately opens negotiations with Antiochus and at the same time reformed the army. But a problem soon arose, there was not enough Macedonian men left eligible for service. So Ptolemy allowed for the first time in the history of the dynasty for native Egyptians to be allowed into the army and trained in the Macedonian fashion.

Perhaps elite infantry should be of Macedonian descent, vs. the 'native' infantry?