'Miracle' -- teen's heart, stopped for 4 days, beats again

[Giorgos]

Daniel Walker was on his final lap jogging in his high school gym class when he collapsed, his flawed heart giving out on him.More than four days later, his heart at a standstill, kept alive by a bypass machine, it began beating again. The 17-year-old's parents called it divine intervention. His physicians were no less amazed.
"I've been a surgeon for 10 years, and this is probably one of the most incredible things I've ever seen," said Dr. Abeel Mangi, one of Walker's cardiac surgeons at New York-Presbyterian Hospital Columbia.
Walker's father described his son's recovery in spiritual terms. "God turned around, put His hand on my son, and recharged him," said William Walker, 58, a retired sanitation worker.
His son's ordeal began January 19 when he collapsed in gym class. The younger Walker suffered from a rare congenital heart flaw that left his coronary artery pinched, giving him only 10 percent of normal heart capacity. He was shuttled to two hospitals before finding himself at Columbia, waiting for a heart transplant, attached to the bypass machine.
Walker's cardiac surgeons said they could not account for the young man's recovery.
"It's a miracle," Mangi said. "There's really no other way to put it."
Two days after it began to beat on its own, surgeons were able to fix the flaw in Walker's heart, increasing its capacity to 60 percent.



What is of major interest to me is the doctor's statement...
The family of the kid must be in the clouds after being told that there was no chance of recovery, save for a transplant.




original link:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/12/mir....ap/index.html

[mischief]

so the docs statement is...

"I've been a surgeon for 10 years, and this is probably one of the most incredible things I've ever seen"

This makes it highly improbable... massively unlikely... and outside of the normal...

But still well within the bell curve.

[Giorgos]

so the docs statement is...

"I've been a surgeon for 10 years, and this is probably one of the most incredible things I've ever seen"

This makes it highly improbable... massively unlikely... and outside of the normal...

But still well within the bell curve.

"It's a miracle," Mangi said. "There's really no other way to put it."
also part of the doctor's statement.

[Ummon]

I disagree, on this instance, that a miracle occurred. Considering an approach I am currently evaluating to the mathematical aspects of the diffusion of electrical excitement in biological systems, the phenomenon is completely possible, although necessarily rare.

The explanation is not medical, thus the obvious surprise of the local surgeons.

[Giorgos]

it could be as you suggested. sounds reasonable enough.

[Ummon]

More precisely, the main problem there is perfusion. Heart circulation is granted by the very heart's motility. Though in substance, if the heart stops, its energy consumption decreases to near zero, along with perfusion and oxygen intake. It is possible that te bypass machine, allowing a residual circulation sufficient for the reduced oxygen requests, can avoid ischemia and thus allowing for contraction to spontaneously resume (because the nodes act as semi-intransitive chaotic systems). It would be interesting to ask a cardiologist, in truth.

[Tom Paine]

Miracle just means highly unlikely and improbable event, in the vernacular, to be honest. I mean let's be open about it; if he'd died suddenly from being perfectly healthy, that'd be equally unlikely, but no one would call it a miracle. No need to go around attaching mysticism to this event.

[Ummon]

Well, a true miracle needs also to be scientifically unexplainable.

[Idwayreth]

If there's a possibility of that happening then it's not a miracle. I have 1 in some few million chances to win the lottery, if it happens then should i consider it a miracle?

A miracle is turning water to wine.

[Giorgos]

A miracle is turning water to wine.

lol, sure, but i doubt you'd accept it as such without an exhaustive and excruciating research towards the opposite direction. which would probably be the right thing to do since a lot of so-called miracles turned out to be hoaxes motivated by commercial enterpreneurs of the lowest kind or misguided believers of the type "if god doesn't give miracles, i'll help him out"

[Richard]

If there's a possibility of that happening then it's not a miracle. I have 1 in some few million chances to win the lottery, if it happens then should i consider it a miracle?

A miracle is turning water to wine.

Pfft easy, just try putting some fermented grapes in it!

[Tom Paine]

Miracles need to be demonstrably miraculous; however, they tend to be verifiable and not falsifiable... so not provable. Furthermore, they tend to be occurences of the most random group; I mean that in the most formal sense.

[Giorgos]

either way, i love it when there's something i can't easily explain.


/btw, Ozymandias how did you write that "Percy Bysshe Shelley" under your avatar?

[imb39]

Had he not been on life support, I would have said that was a miracle!

[Giorgos]

yeah well, we had some of those events imb39...haven't you ever heard of people coming back out of the white tunnel after having died and having seen their bodies being operated on by doctors where they described with details what the doctors were doing and saying?
Some of those descritions are fantastic. I am sure people have come up with reasonable explanations for those events, but they are great nontheless.

[rez]

Theologically speaking it would have been impossible for the Christian God to save this boys life.

Strictly speaking its theologically impossible for any miracle to occur as it signifies divine intervention in our world. As such it signifies a loss of free will. No matter how beneficial it might be its still a manipulation of freedom.

And if God is allowed to intervene in this world then the problem of evil becomes doubly powerful. To put it very simply - why help one and not the other?

Regardless of which the boys recovery certainly is astounding. Almost as astounding as the technicalities of Ummon's incredible explaination.

[Giorgos]

Theologically speaking it would have been impossible for the Christian God to save this boys life.

why? If He's God, there's nothing impossible to Him, is there?

Strictly speaking its theologically impossible for any miracle to occur as it signifies divine intervention in our world. As such it signifies a loss of free will. No matter how beneficial it might be its still a manipulation of freedom.

not if you have nowhere else to place your "faith" in. for example, in cases of incurable(by today's medical standards) diseases/illnesses. In such a case, "Divine Intervention" in the form of a miracle would be welcome by the afflicted, would it not? Would he see it as a loss of his free will? also, don't look at it coldly. what if it was you, who was afflicted and you were offered a cure in the guise of a miracle. would you not take it?

And if God is allowed to intervene in this world then the problem of evil becomes doubly powerful. To put it very simply - why help one and not the other?

First of, i doubt that God is "allowed" to intervene. Who is going to allow Him to? anyway, if God is truly intervening, as you stated above, then the answer is very simple. He cures those in accordance to his Wisdom. Whatever that Wisdom may be. I am not Him, therefore i can't put his Wisdom in realistic and down to earth terms why He cured one, but chose not to cure another. All of the above, of course, apply only if one accepts God's existense.

Regardless of which the boys recovery certainly is astounding. Almost as astounding as the technicalities of Ummon's incredible explaination.

Agreed on both points. i wonder what ummon does for a living...

[rez]

why? If He's God, there's nothing impossible to Him, is there?

Theologically impossible means that he isn't allowed to or the theologly surrounding him falls apart. So if you were a Christian you couldn't believe it was God intervening because it directly contravenes one of the key tenets of your faith.

God COULD intervene, but he would crush his own religious teaching.

As such i say he isn't theologically allowed to intervene.

not if you have nowhere else to place your "faith" in. for example, in cases of incurable(by today's medical standards) diseases/illnesses. In such a case, "Divine Intervention" in the form of a miracle would be welcome by the afflicted, would it not? Would he see it as a loss of his free will? also, don't look at it coldly. what if it was you, who was afflicted and you were offered a cure in the guise of a miracle. would you not take it?

Basically what your saying is that it IS theologically possible because its a nice thing being done.

Im afraid the actual concequences of the intervention don't matter in the slightest. All that matters is that God entered our "Free" world.

Its irrelevant how the afflicted saw it, or if he welcomed the abuse of the freedom of the world. The abuse is what prevents God from doing it.

It doesn't even matter what i would do if i were the afflicted. Im not saying that i believe in free will so much i would refuse miraculous help. Im just saying that the Christian God couldn't give it and still tell us we're free.

First of, i doubt that God is "allowed" to intervene. Who is going to allow Him to? anyway, if God is truly intervening, as you stated above, then the answer is very simple. He cures those in accordance to his Wisdom. Whatever that Wisdom may be. I am not Him, therefore i can't put his Wisdom in realistic and down to earth terms why He cured one, but chose not to cure another. All of the above, of course, apply only if one accepts God's existense.

So whatever God does is ok because he is God.

Heres the deal. The problem of evil is justified by clever people by saying that God can't intervene and save us from evil because we have to be free to live our lives and make our own choices. So if you suddenly allow God to come into the world and wantonly make his own little changes you eliminate both his excuse for evil AND the supposed freedom we have.

Lastly were left with a God who chooses who lives and who dies on a whim he calls his greater plan. The idea of a greater plan doesn't go too well with freedom or a God a lot of angry orphans and widows would like to worship.

[Captain Blackadder]

Here is a rather long article that basically sums up my view on "mericale healings" entitled

Why wont god cure amputees



from http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm
Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?


Does God answer prayers? According to believers, the answer is certainly yes.

For example, at any Christian bookstore you can find hundreds of books about the power of prayer. On the Internet you can find thousands of testimonials to the many ways that God works in our lives today. Even large city newspapers and national magazines run stories about answered prayers. God seems to be interacting with our world and answering millions of prayers on planet Earth every day.

Please just link or post short excerpts to long, copywrited articles

Thank you
-scottishranger

[Garnier]

I dont have time to read that whole post, but I read the section about having a "deserving" amputee get prayed for by the world and they say that he wont be healed, thus God doesnt heal. Thats not a very solid argument.

By the way, does the Bible say God does anything for anyone because they deserve it? No it does not.


In response to the O.P story. I wasn't there, and I can't know for sure if it was a miracle that was performed, but I do believe it is, since the chances of it "just happening" are so low, and the only other way for it to happen are by God healing. And besides, Ive seen lots of things like this where the doctors were completely surprised and had no explanation, after someone was prayed for and the suddenly recovered.