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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    February 12, 2007

    Believing Scripture but Playing by Science’s Rules

    By CORNELIA DEAN

    KINGSTON, R.I. — There is nothing much unusual about the 197-page dissertation Marcus R. Ross submitted in December to complete his doctoral degree in geosciences here at the University of Rhode Island.

    His subject was the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. The work is “impeccable,” said David E. Fastovsky, a paleontologist and professor of geosciences at the university who was Dr. Ross’s dissertation adviser. “He was working within a strictly scientific framework, a conventional scientific framework.”

    But Dr. Ross is hardly a conventional paleontologist. He is a “young earth creationist” — he believes that the Bible is a literally true account of the creation of the universe, and that the earth is at most 10,000 years old.

    For him, Dr. Ross said, the methods and theories of paleontology are one “paradigm” for studying the past, and Scripture is another. In the paleontological paradigm, he said, the dates in his dissertation are entirely appropriate. The fact that as a young earth creationist he has a different view just means, he said, “that I am separating the different paradigms.”

    He likened his situation to that of a socialist studying economics in a department with a supply-side bent. “People hold all sorts of opinions different from the department in which they graduate,” he said. “What’s that to anybody else?”

    But not everyone is happy with that approach. “People go somewhat bananas when they hear about this,” said Jon C. Boothroyd, a professor of geosciences at Rhode Island.

    In theory, scientists look to nature for answers to questions about nature, and test those answers with experiment and observation. For Biblical literalists, Scripture is the final authority. As a creationist raised in an evangelical household and a paleontologist who said he was “just captivated” as a child by dinosaurs and fossils, Dr. Ross embodies conflicts between these two approaches. The conflicts arise often these days, particularly as people debate the teaching of evolution.

    And, for some, his case raises thorny philosophical and practical questions. May a secular university deny otherwise qualified students a degree because of their religion? Can a student produce intellectually honest work that contradicts deeply held beliefs? Should it be obligatory (or forbidden) for universities to consider how students will use the degrees they earn?

    Those are “darned near imponderable issues,” said John W. Geissman, who has considered them as a professor of earth and planetary sciences at the University of New Mexico. For example, Dr. Geissman said, Los Alamos National Laboratory has a geophysicist on staff, John R. Baumgardner, who is an authority on the earth’s mantle — and also a young earth creationist.

    If researchers like Dr. Baumgardner do their work “without any form of interjection of personal dogma,” Dr. Geissman said, “I would have to keep as objective a hat on as possible and say, ‘O.K., you earned what you earned.’ ”

    Others say the crucial issue is not whether Dr. Ross deserved his degree but how he intends to use it.

    In a telephone interview, Dr. Ross said his goal in studying at secular institutions “was to acquire the training that would make me a good paleontologist, regardless of which paradigm I was using.”

    Today he teaches earth science at Liberty University, the conservative Christian institution founded by the Rev. Jerry Falwell where, Dr. Ross said, he uses a conventional scientific text.

    “We also discuss the intersection of those sorts of ideas with Christianity,” he said. “I don’t require my students to say or write their assent to one idea or another any more than I was required.”

    But he has also written and spoken on scientific subjects, and with a creationist bent. While still a graduate student, he appeared on a DVD arguing that intelligent design, an ideological cousin of creationism, is a better explanation than evolution for the Cambrian explosion, a rapid diversification of animal life that occurred about 500 million years ago.

    Online information about the DVD identifies Dr. Ross as “pursuing a Ph.D. in geosciences” at the University of Rhode Island. It is this use of a secular credential to support creationist views that worries many scientists.

    Eugenie C. Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, a private group on the front line of the battle for the teaching of evolution, said fundamentalists who capitalized on secular credentials “to miseducate the public” were doing a disservice.

    Michael L. Dini, a professor of biology education at Texas Tech University, goes even further. In 2003, he was threatened with a federal investigation when students complained that he would not write letters of recommendation for graduate study for anyone who would not offer “a scientific answer” to questions about how the human species originated.

    Nothing came of it, Dr. Dini said in an interview, adding, “Scientists do not base their acceptance or rejection of theories on religion, and someone who does should not be able to become a scientist.”

    A somewhat more complicated issue arose last year at Ohio State University, where Bryan Leonard, a high school science teacher working toward a doctorate in education, was preparing to defend his dissertation on the pedagogical usefulness of teaching alternatives to the theory of evolution.

    Earle M. Holland, a spokesman for the university, said Mr. Leonard and his adviser canceled the defense when questions arose about the composition of the faculty committee that would hear it.

    Meanwhile three faculty members had written the university administration, arguing that Mr. Leonard’s project violated the university’s research standards in that the students involved were being subjected to something harmful (the idea that there were scientific alternatives to the theory of evolution) without receiving any benefit.

    Citing privacy rules, Mr. Holland would not discuss the case in detail, beyond saying that Mr. Leonard was still enrolled in the graduate program. But Mr. Leonard has become a hero to people who believe that creationists are unfairly treated by secular institutions.

    Perhaps the most famous creationist wearing the secular mantle of science is Kurt P. Wise, who earned his doctorate at Harvard in 1989 under the guidance of the paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould, a leading theorist of evolution who died in 2002.

    Dr. Wise, who teaches at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., wrote his dissertation on gaps in the fossil record. But rather than suggest, as many creationists do, that the gaps challenge the wisdom of Darwin’s theory, Dr. Wise described a statistical approach that would allow paleontologists to infer when a given species was present on earth, millions of years ago, even if the fossil evidence was incomplete.

    Dr. Wise, who declined to comment for this article, is a major figure in creationist circles today, and his Gould connection appears prominently on his book jackets and elsewhere.

    “He is lionized,” Dr. Scott said. “He is the young earth creationist with a degree from Harvard.”

    As for Dr. Ross, “he does good science, great science,” said Dr. Boothroyd, who taught him in a class in glacial geology. But in talks and other appearances, Dr. Boothroyd went on, Dr. Ross is already using “the fact that he has a Ph.D. from a legitimate science department as a springboard.”

    Dr. Ross, 30, grew up in Rhode Island in an evangelical Christian family. He attended Pennsylvania State University and then the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, where he wrote his master’s thesis on marine fossils found in the state.

    His creationism aroused “some concern by faculty members there, and disagreements,” he recalled, and there were those who argued that his religious beliefs should bar him from earning an advanced degree in paleontology.

    “But in the end I had a decent thesis project and some people who, like the people at U.R.I., were kind to me, and I ended up going through,” Dr. Ross said.

    Dr. Fastovsky and other members of the Rhode Island faculty said they knew about these disagreements, but admitted him anyway. Dr. Boothroyd, who was among those who considered the application, said they judged Dr. Ross on his academic record, his test scores and his master’s thesis, “and we said, ‘O.K., we can do this.’ ”

    He added, “We did not know nearly as much about creationism and young earth and intelligent design as we do now.”

    For his part, Dr. Ross says, “Dr. Fastovsky was liberal in the most generous and important sense of the term.”

    He would not say whether he shared the view of some young earth creationists that flaws in paleontological dating techniques erroneously suggest that the fossils are far older than they really are.

    Asked whether it was intellectually honest to write a dissertation so at odds with his religious views, he said: “I was working within a particular paradigm of earth history. I accepted that philosophy of science for the purpose of working with the people” at Rhode Island.

    And though his dissertation repeatedly described events as occurring tens of millions of years ago, Dr. Ross added, “I did not imply or deny any endorsement of the dates.”

    Dr. Fastovsky said he had talked to Dr. Ross “lots of times” about his religious beliefs, but that depriving him of his doctorate because of them would be nothing more than religious discrimination. “We are not here to certify his religious beliefs,” he said. “All I can tell you is he came here and did science that was completely defensible.”

    Steven B. Case, a research professor at the Center for Research Learning at the University of Kansas, said it would be wrong to “censor someone for a belief system as long as it does not affect their work. Science is an open enterprise to anyone who practices it.”

    Dr. Case, who champions the teaching of evolution, heads the committee writing state science standards in Kansas, a state particularly racked by challenges to Darwin. Even so, he said it would be frightening if universities began “enforcing some sort of belief system on their graduate students.”

    But Dr. Scott, a former professor of physical anthropology at the University of Colorado, said in an interview that graduate admissions committees were entitled to consider the difficulties that would arise from admitting a doctoral candidate with views “so at variance with what we consider standard science.” She said such students “would require so much remedial instruction it would not be worth my time.”

    That is not religious discrimination, she added, it is discrimination “on the basis of science.”

    Dr. Dini, of Texas Tech, agreed. Scientists “ought to make certain the people they are conferring advanced degrees on understand the philosophy of science and are indeed philosophers of science,” he said. “That’s what Ph.D. stands for.”
    NY Times

    Can/should universities discrimate on the basis of religious belief?

  2. #2
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Well, it appears there was nothing wrong with his work, and that's the important bit; so long as he separates and shows continued will to separate his science and his beliefs in two separate frames of mind, and not abuse his science degree to lend a false credence to his religious beliefs, there should be no discrimination.

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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    This is a tricky subject.

    If I were an idealist, I would not see a problem here. Unfortunately I'm a cynic. I don't believe that a scientist of any religion can perform their work without bias. Afterall, do scientist not start with a hypothesis and work to prove that hypothesis? What sort of hypothesis would a die-hard Christian put forth compared to that of a Agnostic or Aetheist? Factor in human nature and our dislike about being proven wrong and what results is Intelligent Design and other similar "theories".

    However, a Christian Budhist has as much right to a Ph.D as anybody else. I can't deny it nor come up with any sensible arguement as to why they shouldn't.

    The power of religion continues to awe and horrify me.
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crab Apple Tea View Post
    This is a tricky subject.

    If I were an idealist, I would not see a problem here. Unfortunately I'm a cynic. I don't believe that a scientist of any religion can perform their work without bias. Afterall, do scientist not start with a hypothesis and work to prove that hypothesis? What sort of hypothesis would a die-hard Christian put forth compared to that of a Agnostic or Aetheist? Factor in human nature and our dislike about being proven wrong and what results is Intelligent Design and other similar "theories".

    However, a Christian Budhist has as much right to a Ph.D as anybody else. I can't deny it nor come up with any sensible arguement as to why they shouldn't.

    The power of religion continues to awe and horrify me.
    Just a bit of knowledge of games theory would make you a lot more tolerant towards religion, and make religious people much more tolerant about evolution.

    Knowledge is always the simplest solution.

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    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    the teaching of evolution is banned in some states in USA, correct?

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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Just a bit of knowledge of games theory would make you a lot more tolerant towards religion, and make religious people much more tolerant about evolution.

    Knowledge is always the simplest solution.
    Knowledge in of itself is worthless without understanding, with understanding being a byproduct of coherent thought. Hence, knowledge of Game Theory is worthless to me as I cannot understand it, lacking any coherent (mathematical-only [I hope!]) thought. That, or the Wikipedia article just isn't very good.

    Don't mistake me. I'm not intollerant of religion; I'm simply shocked by it from time to time.
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crab Apple Tea View Post
    Knowledge in of itself is worthless without understanding, with understanding being a byproduct of coherent thought. Hence, knowledge of Game Theory is worthless to me as I cannot understand it, lacking any coherent (mathematical-only [I hope!]) thought. That, or the Wikipedia article just isn't very good.

    Don't mistake me. I'm not intollerant of religion; I'm simply shocked by it from time to time.
    In truth to have understanding you just need more knowledge.

    Games theory foresees that mixed strategies are the best to maximize collective gain in any given situation.

    Eliminating religion (and eliminating atheism) is ending a mixed strategy (on morals), and henceforth reducing collective gain.

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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    In truth to have understanding you just need more knowledge.

    Games theory foresees that mixed strategies are the best to maximize collective gain in any given situation.

    Eliminating religion (and eliminating atheism) is ending a mixed strategy (on morals), and henceforth reducing collective gain.
    There is strength in diversity; I understand this. It's similar to the whole idea that the more genetic diversity the Human race has, the stronger it is. I agree this also applies in a societal context.

    I can't agree with the first part of your reply, however. I've known too many people who possess a lot of knowledge but lack the intelligence to really make that knowledge wisdom. Everyone knows someone like this. They are the person who when arguing will quote a dozen different sources, usually contradicting themselves in the process, get frustrated and stray off into tangents because they know they're smart. You can lead a person to knowledge, but can you make them think?

    However we're getting off topic here, so if you want to continue this discussion it would be best over PM or in another thread.
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Actually... a scientist comes up with a hypothesis and tries to falsify it; to quote Popper, "every genuine test of a theory is an attempt to falsify it" (Conjectures and refutations).

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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Yes. That is how it should be done...
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    That is how it does work, because other scientists are dealing with the hypothesis, not just the proposer.

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    Syron's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Well in theory there should be no problem. If he can do the work and present it scientifically then he has earn't his degree.

    The main problem i can see is if he uses the fact he is awarded the degree to make claims that his personal beliefs are somehow supported by the scientific work he has done.

    It also does raise questions about the whole peer review process too. If you don't believe in the cause you are championing it can seriously harm the effectiveness.
    Last edited by Syron; February 12, 2007 at 08:08 PM.
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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    That is how it does work, because other scientists are dealing with the hypothesis, not just the proposer.
    I admit that I'm not a scientist and that I have little to do with the scientific community, but it seems to be you're trying to say that scientists are not like the rest of the Human race and don't have alterior motives to the research they do.

    Of course scientists other than the originator of a hypothesis research it and argue it. But why would all of these other scientists have a different goal in mind than the scientist that first put it forth? Do you mean to tell me that personal belief is not a motivating force in the work that all scientists do? Are there not conflicting camps of thought on one topic or another within the scientific community?

    Don't get me wrong! I agree with your quote from Popper, I'm just trying to suggest that maybe not all research is as genuine as it should be.
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Syron's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crab Apple Tea View Post
    I admit that I'm not a scientist and that I have little to do with the scientific community, but it seems to be you're trying to say that scientists are not like the rest of the Human race and don't have alterior motives to the research they do.

    Of course scientists other than the originator of a hypothesis research it and argue it. But why would all of these other scientists have a different goal in mind than the scientist that first put it forth? Do you mean to tell me that personal belief is not a motivating force in the work that all scientists do? Are there not conflicting camps of thought on one topic or another within the scientific community?

    Don't get me wrong! I agree with your quote from Popper, I'm just trying to suggest that maybe not all research is as genuine as it should be.
    You misunderstand his point. It has to do with Peer Review. Scientific enquiry works because there are groups of competing researchers all with their different ideas about how a particular phenomena works. For a particular scientists (or more usually teams) work to be recognised it must be repeated by the people who most strongly oppose the proposers hyposthesis. They will try their best to falsify it. The peer review process uses mans instinctive competitive nature to find the most likely solution. If your greatest opponent becomes convinced of the validity of your statement then that's a pretty good indicator that you are on the right lines.
    Last edited by Syron; February 12, 2007 at 08:32 PM.
    Member and acting regent of the House of Kazak Borispavlovgrozny
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    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    This is why I want to go to a Christian college.

    I'd love that.

    Wheaton, Illinois.

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    Trey's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by tnick777 View Post
    This is why I want to go to a Christian college.

    I'd love that.

    Wheaton, Illinois.
    You go to Wheaton?
    for-profit death machine.

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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey View Post
    You go to Wheaton?

    No I go to U of I Urbana

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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Can/should universities discrimate on the basis of religious belief?
    Wrong question. No-one is talking about discriminating on account of his religious beliefs. People are, quite rightly, talking about rejecting his work because his so-called "paradigm" is intrinsically unscientific. This supposed "paradigm" is based on the assumption of certain non-scientific, unfalsifiable, untestable, religious truths. So his research, however much he likes to dress it up in suitable-sounding jargon, simply isn't scientific research.

    The problem with the original article is that it was written by someone with a pretty feeble grasp of the philosophy of the scientific method. This question for example: "May a secular university deny otherwise qualified students a degree because of their religion?" shows that the writer simply doesn't get what's wrong with the very basis of this guy's research.

    And if his thesis supervisor's comment that the guy's research was "impeccable" wasn't heavily edited or taken out of context, then either he's a fundie as well or he's been smoking something pretty heavy.

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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    Wrong question. No-one is talking about discriminating on account of his religious beliefs.
    Then reread this -

    But Dr. Scott, a former professor of physical anthropology at the University of Colorado, said in an interview that graduate admissions committees were entitled to consider the difficulties that would arise from admitting a doctoral candidate with views “so at variance with what we consider standard science.” She said such students “would require so much remedial instruction it would not be worth my time.”

    If that is not prejudging someone abilities based on their religious beliefs then I don't know what is.



    People are, quite rightly, talking about rejecting his work because his so-called "paradigm" is intrinsically unscientific. This supposed "paradigm" is based on the assumption of certain non-scientific, unfalsifiable, untestable, religious truths. So his research, however much he likes to dress it up in suitable-sounding jargon, simply isn't scientific research.
    Nowhere does it say that Dr. Ross included in his research paper any mention that his work was only one way to look at the evidence. His work was clean cut boring science. The alternate paradigm idea is his personal way of reconciling his religion with his work.

    The problem with the original article is that it was written by someone with a pretty feeble grasp of the philosophy of the scientific method. This question for example: "May a secular university deny otherwise qualified students a degree because of their religion?" shows that the writer simply doesn't get what's wrong with the very basis of this guy's research.

    Perhaps you should reread the article and find that is exactly what some wanted to do.

    And if his thesis supervisor's comment that the guy's research was "impeccable" wasn't heavily edited or taken out of context, then either he's a fundie as well or he's been smoking something pretty heavy
    And you know this how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwaho
    the teaching of evolution is banned in some states in USA, correct?
    None that I am aware of
    Last edited by Big War Bird; February 14, 2007 at 02:21 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Evolutionists Standing in schoolhouse door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Then reread this -

    But Dr. Scott, a former professor of physical anthropology at the University of Colorado, said in an interview that graduate admissions committees were entitled to consider the difficulties that would arise from admitting a doctoral candidate with views “so at variance with what we consider standard science.” She said such students “would require so much remedial instruction it would not be worth my time.”

    If that is not prejudging someone abilities based on their religious beliefs then I don't know what is.
    You...do realize that doctoral candidates should not have to be given remedial instruction right? Right? They're called prerequisites for a reason. This is the reason some institutes are accredited and some are not for various professional titles ranging from PE to MD to DMD to PhD.

    Certain education programs require a certain way of looking at the problem to be able to deal with it sufficiently for the field's requirements. It's a fact. The attitude needed for a Theology PhD varies greatly from one required for an Anthropology PhD.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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