Any helpful tidbits for my new guide

[Prince Constantius]

Greetings good sirs at twcenter.net
I am beginnig work on a guide outlining the factions and strategies for said factions in Medieval Total War II.
I have all four total war games, and am interested in any ideas the proud people on this forum might have.
More specifically I'm looking for strategies and hints regarding the Byzantine Empire, The Turks and The Egyptians.
Nevertheless, any information regarding any faction would be much appreciated.

PAX IMPERATOR................

[parvus]

rapid expansion into rebel settlements, trade rights and if possible, alliances, map info good, alliances with papal states if catholic, "donate" to pope if necessary, small garrisons, many cities compared to castles

[Zhou]

I can help with the Turks as they are my favorite faction in the game.

Early Strategy

The early strategy for the Turks is fairly simple, you need to consolidate your territorial holdings in Anatolia by taking the rebel provinces around you as fast as possible. Not only will this lead to a more physically unified empire, but it will also allow you to build up networks of roads that connect your provinces together for faster military access. The early expansion will also net you some much needed cash.

Conquering Rebels

As the Turks, you start out with 2 castles with Mosul in the east and Caesarea in the middle/west part of your holdings. You should produce Sipahis and Turkomans from these castles as soon as possible and use very small horse archer armies (4 units) with 1 or 2 general units to start besieging rebel towns. It is crucial to use small armies to foce the AI to sally out on the first turn of the siege so you don't waste time starving the defenders out. Once they do sally out, just use standard horse archer tactics to defeat them (I'll give a brief run through further down). From Caesarea, I usually go for the sea-bound provinces to the south as they are good financial centers after they have been built up a little bit. I conquer them in this order (more or less):

Adana
Antioch
Aleppo
Damascus
Acre
Jerusalem

Note that Acre and Jerusalem might be taken by the Egyptians in some campaigns so you will have to move fast to secure those provinces before they do.

My army from Mosul generally conquers the following provinces in this order:

Baghdad
Edessa
Tibilisi
Trebizond

Note, Trebizond might be conquered by the Byzantines before your armies get there. If it is taken, it is vital that you capture the province or else the Byzantines will be able to launch strikes at you from various routes.

Early Diplomacy

I usually send my starting diplomat out to the West and build another one to contact Egypt. I generally secure trading rights with the Byzantines at the start of the game, but do not offer an alliance. I then send that diplomat to contact the Hungarians, Venetians, Milianese, Sicilians, the Holy Roman Empire, and the Pope to trade map information and obtain trading rights. You can usually make anywhere from 500-1,000 florins from selling your map information and offering trading rights while gaining the opposite faction's map information in return. If you're bargaining with an especially weak faction, you can obtain generous terms and have them pay you tribute (eg, 1,000 florins per turn for 5 turns) for your map information and trading rights. You can also sell Alliance offers to the Christian factions as well to earn money in the early game.

My other diplomat heads to the Egyptian lands and secures an Alliance with them ASAP. They are usually amiable to the proposal. In my games I tend to leave the Egyptians alone and expand westward, although sometimes I will grab their lands, but only after I've destroyed the Byzantines.

Build Order for Cities/Castles in the Early Game

In the early game, I usually develop my economic buildings in my sea-faring cities first as these are going to be my main source of income for a while. However, I do build the town guard line of buildings fairly rapidly as I want to have decent militia units available to hold my cities. The very first building I make is generally Roads followed by a Small Mosque, Land Clearence, Grain Exchange, Town Watch, Shi-sha Bar, Market, Communal Farming, and Leather Tanner, and Blacksmith. If I can make a Port in the city, I will build that before Land Clearence. After I finish those buildings if I still have time before upgrading my walls, I will build a Ballista Maker.

For my castles, I initially build Stables followed by the Infantry-line (Barracks etc) so I can get Ottoman Infantry as soon as possible. After building the initial stable, you can focus on the infantry buildings because your horse archer recruitment is tied more to the level of castle that you have then the level of stables that you have.

Attacking the Byzantines

After I've secured the early rebel provinces, I will make plans on assaulting the Byzantines. Usually I am already at with them as they will have tried to take Iconium multiple times by now, but the city is easily defended if you have a few units of Saracen Militia backed by some Turkish Archers/Naffatun and your General unit(s). In any case, you should focus on creating a large horse archer army (comprised solely of Generals and Sipahis) to take out the opposing Byzantines as they generally have weak units at this phase in the game consisting mainly of unupgraded Byzantine Spearmen and Town Militia units. They will also have the odd horse archer unit and sometimes Armenian Cavalry and Turkomans (mercenary units of course). All of these armies are susceptible to a massed horse archer army supported by heavy cavalry. In any case, build up Iconium as soon as possible so that you can produce Janissary Heavy Infantry (only requres a Dar al-Imara, which you can get really quickly in Iconium). Make a few units of these and put them in a second army behind your horse archer army. Clear a path to Nicaea with your horse archers and sack the city with your "assault" army. Follow up by swinging south to cap Smyrna before taking Constantinople. After you've captured Constantinople, go for Thessalonica with one army while creating another to sack Rhodes/Iraklion (which may be in Venetian hands)/Cornith. Also, take Nicosia (on Cyprus) with a seperate third army from the Holy Lands. This will usually destroy the Byzantine Empire and then you can focus on attacking the Hungarians/Venetians, although by this point in the game you may want to consider sueing for peace as the Mongols should be invading fairly soon.

Mid/Late Game Army Composition

My middle-game army that is used for assaulting cities usually looks like the following (based on a full 20-unit stack):

1 General
6 Janissary Heavy Infantry
6 Ottoman Infantry
4 Dismounted Sipahi Lancers
3 Trebuchets

My middle-game field army (the one that I used to destroy enemy forces) usually looks like this:

5 Generals
6 Sipahis

This highly mobile army is effective against all mid-game armies that I come across in the East. The only problem you encounter is when you start fighting more late-game armies, especially ones that have a lot of light/medium cavalry (Hungarian Hussars are a pain).

My end-game army generally looks like this (distinction is lost between field/assaulting armies at this point in the game):

1 General
2 Qapukulus
3 Dismounted Sipahi Lancers
6 Janissary Heavy Infantry
4 Janissary Musketeers
2 Cannons
2 Monster Bombards

This force is able to match up against any army from the other Factions in the game.

Horse Archer Tactics

As promised, I will give a brief synopsis of using horse archers in the open field. Let's suppose I'm using my early/mid-game field army composing of 5 general units and 6 sipahis (medium horse archers). Regardless of whether I am attacking or defending, I will use the same general formation with my heavy cavalry in the center and 3 units of Sipahis to the left and right flanks.

As soon as the battle begins, I send out my Sipahis towards the enemy army while marching my heavy cavalry forward. I use my horse archers to flank the enemy forces and pepper their troops with arrows from their unprotected back sides. As soon as my generals are near enough to the enemy to charge, I select enemy units for each of my heavy cavalry and charge them in. Now if the enemy army is composed of relatively low-morale troops (militia/spearmen) I will order my Sipahis to charge the rear at this point and the enemy force will generally break (assuming no true General). If there is an enemy general present, I will lure him away with two of my Sipahi units and destroy his unit by showering him with arrows while keeping him out of melee range. After he has died, I will order my Generals to charge and follow up with my Sipahis. If, however, the enemy army has high-morale units such as Dismounted Feudal Knights, I will order my heavy cavalry to charge, immediately pull them out to a safe system and repeat my charges until they rout. My goal is not to KILL the enemy army, but rather to cause them to rout when my horse archers are capable of rounding them all up safely. So in that sense, killing the enemy general is the best first step to take.

Conclusion

Okay, so this was a bit long, and I would be shocked if anybody is still reading at this point, so kudos to you. I hope this has helped to illustrate at least some of the power behind the Turks in M2TW.

[Prince Constantius]

Excellent work Zhou!!!
I'm would be pleased if you wrote more for this particular thread, regarding the wanton power of the Turks.
Also I'd like your opinion on how to defeat the Mongols(as the Turkish), and how Byzantine players(expirienced generals) should go about combating the power of the Turkish, after all, the Byzantines do want to get even after the massacres at manzikert and Anatolia!

Cheers
Randy a.k.a Prince Constantius

[Zhou]

Excellent work Zhou!!!
I'm would be pleased if you wrote more for this particular thread, regarding the wanton power of the Turks.
Also I'd like your opinion on how to defeat the Mongols(as the Turkish), and how Byzantine players(expirienced generals) should go about combating the power of the Turkish, after all, the Byzantines do want to get even after the massacres at manzikert and Anatolia!

Cheers
Randy a.k.a Prince Constantius

Okay...let's see.

The Byzantine Response

The empire is not nearly as weak as the game portrays it to be as it has a decent mix of European heavy infantry and Eastern cavalry practices making up the majority of its units. The only problem with the Byzantine Empire is the lack of gunpowder units, namely, gunpowder artillery, although this is partly solved through the extensive recruitment of mercenary forces (which is more historically accurate anyway). Another element that is missing would be the lack of non-gunwpowder professional soldiers (Pikemen). But this only comes into play in the end-game.

In that sense, a Byzantine player would need to take advantage of their early-period strength in order to succeed against the Turks (and other nations). Namely, the Byzantine Empire starts the game off in a fairly advantageous position as Constantinople is capable of growing into a Huge City decades before most other cities and can produce higher-quality infantry units fast. Also, Vardariotai are superior horse archers, easily matching the quality of the Turkish Sipahis. As a result, the solution to the "Turkish Problem" is fairly easy -- be aggressive and beat them at their own game. The strengths of the Turks lies in their superior horse archers in the early game, with Byzantine castles capable of producing equal quality missile cavalry, that strength is easily negated. Having heavy infantry early in the game for the Byzantines also helps as they can take Turkish cities easier as the Turks really have no good heavy infantry unit. JHI are good, but too susceptible to arrow fire, making them relatively weak at capturing walls (although they dominate other units in hand-to-hand melee). Beat Turkish armies out in the field by producing large Vardariotai armies and then capture their cities with Byzantine Infantry/Dismounted Byzantine Lancers/Dismounted Lantikons in conjunction with Trebizond/Byzantine Guard Archers. Take out the Turkish threat before they reach the appex of their power when the Gunpowder age hits.

Turks vs Mongols

This has always been a rather sticky issue with people on the forums. There are a few ways to counter the Mongol threat as the Turks, and they can be outlined (roughly) as...

1) Abandon the open field and allow the Mongolian armies to siege your cities/castles and defeat them at the gates.

2) Attack the Mongolian armies with your own troops and defeat them in the field.

I prefer option number 2 as it really isn't too hard to defeat large stacks of Mongolian troops given the right tactics, but I'll give a brief overview of how to defeat them in sieges as well.

Defending vs Mongols in a Siege

This is actually really easy for the Turks as the strength of the Mongol armies are their cavalry. Simply put, your Eastern provinces should already be developed enough by now to pump out Janissary Archers. By deploying your archers at the gates and using their plant stakes ability, you effectively negate the Mongolian cavalry as they mindlessly impale themselves while rushing through the gates. Of course, make sure you let the Mongolian ram destroy your gates for this to work. Your archers/Janissary Heavy Infantry will quickly take care of their infantry.

If the Mongolians have siege equipment, just plant the stakes at the gate entrance and the wall sections immediately to the left and right as the AI will always target these sections of the wall to be destroyed first and rush their units through them when they run out of ammunition.

Attack/Defending Against the Mongols in the Open Field

This is a bit more risky, but ultimately more fun in my opinion What I generally do is send one army composed of the following:

1 General
2 Qapukulus
2 Sipahis
6 Janissary Archers
6 Ottoman Infantry
3 Dismounted Sipahi Lancers

and use it as "bait" to force the Mongolian armies into battle. Once they bite and attack me, I use my Janissary Archers and their plant stakes ability to good effect by spreading them out along a narrow section of the battlefield (if possible) and forcing their cavalry to "funnel" through my defenses in order to attack my troops. This is better showcased in a diagram...

^ = Stakes
A = Janissary Archers
O = Ottoman Infantry
S = Dismounted Sipahi Lancers
C = General/Qapukulus
L = Sipahis

Edit: I can't seem to get spacing to show up well...just imagine them equally spaced.
^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^

S S S

A O A O A O A O A O A O

L C C C L

Make sure you position the stakes so that you are far enough back that their missile cavalry would need to actually make contact with the stakes before they can strike your Dismounted Sipahi Lancers. Also, there will be large spaces between your stakes, but they will still manage to kill about half of the enemy's cavalry formation if you place them right. The rest can be taken care of by your Dismounted Sipahi Lancers. Use your heavy cavalry to help fight off the enemy cavalry that makes it through the stakes and to kill their infantry. The light cavalry is to chase down routers/provide extra missile support where needed on the battle field. You can easily take down 2-3 Mongolian stacks at once with this army, although you may suffer up to 30% casualties. Still, this is a much better situation than most other factions.

[Prince Constantius]

Thank you once again Zhou, I'll soon put this informtion to use against the Seljuk turks!!!
Keep the good stuff coming,anything you'd be willing to write about in between Byzantium and Turkey!!!!!!

P.S: Please ask your friends or contacts to chip in, the more info on this thread,the better!!!!

[parvus]

wow this is rly good! *studying hard*

[Prince Constantius]

BYZANTINE ARMY COMPOSTION.
Grand Campaign.

I've been writing a strategy guide which I might psot at some point(only 289 days t go) and I thoght I'd do a demo, and see how you members like it:
"Well done, or medium rare?" I'd appreciate your feedback, just don't make it crushingly negative:

Byzantine Orthodox Empire:

'In existance since Emperor Constantine the Great's death,the Byzantine Empire(as it is now called) has always had the bare traits needed to survive the ravages of time.
Yet on many occasions, the Empire has reached almost total annihilation,with only one or two city-states left standing.
Infact, it is largely the Eastern Empire's reverence to the Ancient ways that has caused it great harm,the inability to accept the inevitable: That the world no longer answers the call of the Emperor..
The reprecusions have been most severe: widespread corruption,the decay of a unified National military and worse,the complete revolt of the Empire's outer Eastern settlements. Much to the delight of the Turks, who after defeating the only true army between Anatolia and Constantinople, may well have the opening they need to break across the Bosphorus and crush the Emperor's capital.
Make no mistake though, The Byzantine Empire still boasts the trade capital of the world, efficient sea lanes for trade,a disciplined Navy and with some thought and sore organisation a working "much more dangerous than it looks" army.

BYZZANTINE EARLY STRATEGY:
; Early on in the grand Campaign, the Empire will be at a point of stagnation(those of you who remember RTW:Barbarian Invasion will know the irony of this situation) ,an almost non-existant military structure,poor taxation system and general displeasure through the remaning four settlements.
Thessalonica can be considered fair game for city construction as it's port and coastline make it a hub for trade.
Early plans involve the capture of Smyrna to the south east, which should be turned into a castle territory as a primary defense mechanism against flanking turks and rebels.
The second target should be Sofia, an understaffed settlement to the North.
Care should be taken to garrison it generously though,as it's underdevelopment will mean a lack of protection at the beginning of your expansion North.

BASIC MILITARY TACTICS:
; The Byzantine armies will be comprised of Byzantine Infantry and Trebizond archers. use your Capital(Constantinople) to spur you economic and military development,as it is far more advanced than many capitals around Europe.
The early plan of the Byzantine Empire should be to build up it's settlements will voluntarily expanding(every eight to ten turns)


This is a snippet of the guide i am currently assembling, any thoughts just shout em out.

Thanks go out to:
Zhou, thanks for the numerous guides and laboured thought.
Yes, and I did read your stuff,every word...cheers,mate

Jackster: Good threads and short easy-to digest advice, appreciate your continued contributions

Parvus: Small subtle touches that led to my amusement, and some quality straight-out advice, keep it coming.

Prince Constantius

[Prince Constantius]

Ave, generals.
Here's another snippet regarding troop types from my latest guide.
Enjoy,and feel free to give helpful pointers and friendly criticism....

INTRODUCTION:
Over almost five hundred years,the once unique and rare tactics of the Roman Empire have transpired into all the armies of Europe, and more than anything else,the warfare methods of the Byzantine Empire,once considered rare,have become rather quaint by comparison...

(NOTE:I've only included a couple of signature units as a 'preview')

Varanginian Guard
"Guard versus haughty noblemen=haughty noblemen cut to pieces"

Among the most amous military levies,the Varanginian Guard were originally an Elite Bodyguard of the Emperor, and after certain time a mainstream levy throughout the remainder of the Empire.
Thought not as powerful as their Nordic forefathers,the divisions of existing varanginian Guard can go toe to toe with Chivalric foot Knights,Armoured Swordsmen or the dreaded Janissary Infantry,and come out utterly victorious.
Expenisive,and costly to maintain,(not to mention 'too little,too late')
the Varanginian Guard should be positioned strategically throughout your armies and settlements.
Thrown into a broken battleline or at a flank in a manner befitting Verlorene Haufe these axe-wielding heralds of death can turn the tide of a battle dramatically.
ANALYSIS:Linebraeker,Protracted Melee,Berzerker

[ged_was_here91]

Why is there barely any tactica for Custom Battles? Doesnt ANYONE play games over net or LAN? Too much campaign strategy. Campaign does not need strategy, just lots of time.

[Zhou]

Haha, I think you are a bit too kind in the compliments that you have given me

In any case, here's a question for you regarding your Byzantine guide. Why not have an early expansion into Kiev/Caffa as these two black sea settlements provide great economic foundations for the empire. They are two key cities that I always target in my Russian campaigns solely because they produce so much cash through sea/merchant trade (slaves are worth lots of money). The only drawback that I can think of would be an early confrontation with either the Poles, Hungarians, or the Russians. But then again, if you want to capture Sofia, you are bound to encounter Hungarian intrusions anyway.

Anyway, I enjoy your writing style as it has a nice mix of historical elements in addition to the strategic ones. Unlike my own rather dry and analytical musings...

[Prince Constantius]

Hmm....you pose a good argument,Zhou.
Turth be told, 4 of my settlements can recruit Latinkon and Guard Archers.
Now would be a good time to strike at Kiev as my eastern borders are secure,and I have the needed economic wealth(yearly income,I only spend 50-60% tops) to launch an attack on Kiev.
One of my allies is at war with Russia(they control Kiev),and since the beginning of the campaign it has become a formidable citadel.
I would heed your adivce,but regarding this I have several questions:
1.I would have to slightly deplete my garrisons in Nicea and Trebizond,and as I am already besieging iconium,wouldn't reducing my garrisoins,prompt the Turks to invade.
I've already set up a huge fleet across the Bosphorus,in case theyare able to break thorugh to Constantinople
2.Should I forge a deal with HRE, regarding the fighting against Russia,maybe a diplomatic order for tribute perhaps? What are your suggestions...
3.Two of my cities are close to complete success on the tech tree, should I spend the time to research Varanginian Guards, or puts these funds in other more 'needy' settlements?

I await your reply
PAX ROMANA..............

[Prince Constantius]

On an unrelated note, could somebody tell me someting regarding the new Zack Snyder/Frank Miller movie:300?
The Persian army includes a bunch of guys in black, with turbans wearing androgynous masks, also their fingernails are eerily chiiped and rough, who are they?
I haven't seen the movie yet,but of all the concept designs, I thnik those are the coolest,can anyone help me out?

[Mig el Pig]

The Persian army includes a bunch of guys in black, with turbans wearing androgynous masks, also their fingernails are eerily chiiped and rough, who are they?

in the comic their an elite unit of the 10.000 i think.
in reallity they didn't exist.


Another convenient trick with egypt versus the mongols is fortify the river under baghdad with some cheap (you best take 2 tougher units or with high morale with you to take the initial shock) spear/archer armies.
This will force them to either stay on the northbank till the fort near antioch or try and cross which will cost them dearly. You can easily replace the lost units with all your cities while he can't replenish his.

[Prince Constantius]

Have any of you guys seen 300?
How is it.............
Someone please tell me they've seen it

"SPARTANS! TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!"

[Zhou]

Hmm....you pose a good argument,Zhou.
Turth be told, 4 of my settlements can recruit Latinkon and Guard Archers.
Now would be a good time to strike at Kiev as my eastern borders are secure,and I have the needed economic wealth(yearly income,I only spend 50-60% tops) to launch an attack on Kiev.
One of my allies is at war with Russia(they control Kiev),and since the beginning of the campaign it has become a formidable citadel.
I would heed your adivce,but regarding this I have several questions:
1.I would have to slightly deplete my garrisons in Nicea and Trebizond,and as I am already besieging iconium,wouldn't reducing my garrisoins,prompt the Turks to invade.
I've already set up a huge fleet across the Bosphorus,in case theyare able to break thorugh to Constantinople
2.Should I forge a deal with HRE, regarding the fighting against Russia,maybe a diplomatic order for tribute perhaps? What are your suggestions...
3.Two of my cities are close to complete success on the tech tree, should I spend the time to research Varanginian Guards, or puts these funds in other more 'needy' settlements?

I await your reply
PAX ROMANA..............

Okay to answer your questions then...

1) You shouldn't have significant garrisons in your towns in the first place. You can easily hold cities in M2TW because the AI is generally rather dumb about attacking settlements, especially if they don't have any siege equipment with them. Even if they do, you can probably get away with just having spear militia + archer militia + 2 units of cavalry + 1 General. When they send their siege equipment out, simply destroy it with your cavalry units and force them to use the ram to break down your gates. After your gates are down, the AI always rushes his General unit through them and your infantry should be able to kill him relatively fast, which will begin a chain rout for the rest of his army. In a worst case scenario where the Turks have access to gunpowder artillery, you will need a larger/better garrison and hold the city center. However, I am assuming that you haven't reached this point in the game yet for now.

2) I'm not really sure the AI will offer you money if you decide to attack Russia even if they are at war with the faction. You can always try. If you want to strengthen your relationship, however, simply offer to attack Russia as a "gift" to the HRE.

3) Go for the Varangians! They are fairly effective in assaulting cities...just be sure you use them to attack down the avenues and not for taking the walls as their two-handed weapons afford them no protection against projectiles and they will suffer heavy casualties when trying to take walls. Use your heavy infantry instead. Also, if you are only using 50-60% of your income every turn, do you really need to make this choice? Sure your upgrade building for Varangians will cost a lot (12000 florins?), but your less developed city buildings should be fairly cheap. I hope you have at least some cash in your bank right now

[Prince Constantius]

Thank you very much.
I understand your point regarding settlements, and my pointless paronoia comes from a very bad expierience I had when I was ten, and I had just got my copy of Shogun:Total War.
Needless to say,after that expierience I never undergarrisoned my settlements ever again......

'Death to the unbelievers.'
Mohammed the Prophet