The Evils of Capitalism

[NaptownKnight]

NaptownKnight would you be so generous to share with us your idea of marxist state and tell us why all the countries in the world who called themselves "communist" weren't actually communist?
Because in one of your previous posts you talked about a form of government that is not communist but social democratic, and there is Huge difference between them.
And you mentioning that you probably believe in God isn't quite marxist either. So please scetch with couple of sentences your view of communism

I dont have time to explain now, I'm late for school . I will say that everybody has their own interpretation of things, and my believing in god does not have any effect on my political views ( I believe strongly in the seperation of church and state).

[Bwaho]

I will say that everybody has their own interpretation of things, and my believing in god does not have any effect on my political views

maybe I didn't read this sentence right, but did you say you're a communist who believes in God?

Marx called religion "the opium of the masses" and argued for its removal from society... so yeah I say it does have an effect on your political views.

[JP226]

I dont have time to explain now, I'm late for school . I will say that everybody has their own interpretation of things, and my believing in god does not have any effect on my political views ( I believe strongly in the seperation of church and state).

now are you ready to explain?

[NaptownKnight]

Yes I will. My ideal Marxist state would be run by a senate, house, and congress, exactly like our government is run now. I will not have a president, as recent events have made it clear that the president has to much power. There will be more elected officials that will control things like food allocation, shelter, and all of the basic needs of survival. Further, any kind of thing that a person wants but dosent need ( like a dvd player for example) will be applied for and waited for. You will be able to work any kind of job you want, as long as you are the person who can do the job best. The only reward for your work will be pride and joy for what you created, as it should be. This is a basic outline of the USSA

As for the other post about there being previous communist states, this is completely untrue. I really dont have to explain myself (although I believe I did in my previous post) just look at what these states did, and look at what Karl Marx intended to do. BTW I learned about something in school today called the Iran-Contra (forget the last part). This disgusted me to learn this, it is a clear example of capitalism ruining our society.

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

There will be more elected officials that will control things like food allocation, shelter, and all of the basic needs of survival.

Yes because having more elected officials who control our basic needs to survive is a good idea.

Further, any kind of thing that a person wants but dosent need ( like a dvd player for example) will be applied for and waited for.

Yay!

You will be able to work any kind of job you want, as long as you are the person who can do the job best. The only reward for your work will be pride and joy for what you created, as it should be. This is a basic outline of the USSA

Well I don't feel like working. What are you gunna do about it? force me?

@Moriakin :

Hey, rockin the Trotsky symbol again. Good guy that Trotsky

[Tom Paine]

Yes because having more elected officials who control our basic needs to survive is a good idea.

And having self-appointed ones doing it is so much better, eh?

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

And having self-appointed ones doing it is so much better, eh?

Yup

Its called competition...

[JP226]

So... maybe I should start with some basics. You want to create public goods out of food water and shelter. Number one that's impossible, but even if it were, public goods always display something known positive externalities, or under provision. Hence why socialism is naturally and economy of shortage.

any kind of thing that a person wants but dosent need ( like a dvd player for example) will be applied for and waited for.

Why do they have to wait? If you can devise a method to provide food water and shelter, why not for luxuries as well? And of course, without price who determines what is a "need"?

The only reward for your work will be pride and joy for what you created, as it should be.

Basically you have no idea what you are talking about. It's ok for you to say that.

[NaptownKnight]

So... maybe I should start with some basics. You want to create public goods out of food water and shelter. Number one that's impossible, but even if it were, public goods always display something known positive externalities, or under provision. Hence why socialism is naturally and economy of shortage.



Why do they have to wait? If you can devise a method to provide food water and shelter, why not for luxuries as well? And of course, without price who determines what is a "need"?



Basically you have no idea what you are talking about. It's ok for you to say that.

While I apreciate the way you offer constructive criticism, please don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. This is my theory, and while I may be inexperienced, especially in economics, I do know a little of what I am talking about. The reason I say that you would have to wait is because thats just a reality. Naturally people would apply for things that they wanted, and the demand for those items could be pretty high. I will say this, now that I am on the subject of commercial products. Capitalism does offer better products, as in order for you to make more than your competitor you need to put out a better product (although sometimes it seems like certain products are desighned to break after the warranty is up, forcing you to buy a new one or get repairs).

EDIT Even the stalwart defenders of capitalism have to admit that there are many, many things wrong with the system. The contra-iran thing again, do you think that would have happened in a democratic, communist society (and again IM NOT TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA,CHINA,CUBA,NORTH VIETNAM, OR NORTH KOREA NOR ANY OTHER COMMUNIST COUNTRIES THAT HAVE EXISTED)?

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

Naturally people would apply for things that they wanted, and the demand for those items could be pretty high. I will say this, now that I am on the subject of commercial products. Capitalism does offer better products, as in order for you to make more than your competitor you need to put out a better product (although sometimes it seems like certain products are desighned to break after the warranty is up, forcing you to buy a new one or get repairs).

Agreed.

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

The contra-iran thing again, do you think that would have happened in a democratic, communist society (and again IM NOT TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA,CHINA,CUBA,NORTH VIETNAM, OR NORTH KOREA NOR ANY OTHER COMMUNIST COUNTRIES THAT HAVE EXISTED)?

lol so what your saying is that wouldn't have happened in a country that never has existed.

[JP226]

And having self-appointed ones doing it is so much better, eh?

as far as allocation, things like economies of scale matter ore than an elected body to determine proper distribution.

Leaders on the other hand are better elected.

[Tom Paine]

Yup

Its called competition...

as far as allocation, things like economies of scale matter ore than an elected body to determine proper distribution.

Leaders on the other hand are better elected.

I agree that an elected body is not the best way to do it, but I don't agree that competition is the best; it benefits those who can afford more, and harms those who can afford little.

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

I agree that an elected body is not the best way to do it, but I don't agree that competition is the best; it benefits those who can afford more, and harms those who can afford little.

No

Monopolies do that.

Competition on the other hand lowers prices while at the same time creates the most output for the least input. Very efficient as compared to the the alternative.

[Tom Paine]

Competition lowers prices until an opponent is driven out of business, then becomes a monopoly. Competition naturally does this, in fact; creates monopolies.

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

Competition lowers prices until an opponent is driven out of business, then becomes a monopoly. Competition naturally does this, in fact; creates monopolies.

Not really.

We should be against monopolies in almost every area. However your statement about competition is false. Competition doesn't inevitably lead to monopolies. How many fast food chains do we see? Surely Mc Donalds isn't the sole provider of food. We see in real life that new competition arises and competition stays competing

Allowing the government to be the sole provider of your basic needs however is a monopoly. The very thing me and you (hopefully) are against.

[Tom Paine]

Assumes a government must exist in the form it presently takes, which is not neccessarily true.

Basically there are three fast food chains of the MacDonalds type; McD, BK, KFC. There are basically two commercial operating system producers, Apple and Microsoft. Three video game console manufacturers; Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft. Ad infinitum. Not much competition really, or not much new competition, when the market is so closed.

[-Conan the Barbarian-]

Basically there are three fast food chains of the MacDonalds type; McD, BK, KFC. There are basically two commercial operating system producers, Apple and Microsoft. Three video game console manufacturers; Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft. Ad infinitum. Not much competition really, or not much new competition, when the market is so closed.

Hold on there. There is competition. Your alternative is no competition. You are just showing the top few restaurants. There are millions of small businesses. Millions of small restaurants. There isn't just McDonalds and Burger King. They however are the best at what they do apparently. They get food quickly to their customers and they enjoy it. If they didn't they would fail. Government however can't fail. Thus provides us with crap.

[JP226]

Competition lowers prices until an opponent is driven out of business, then becomes a monopoly.

No, a monoploy is what's left after competition has savaged each other sure enough. But as long as we have small business and innovation that can find a substitue progress will be had and the monopoly will naturally die out.

Basically there are three fast food chains of the MacDonalds type; McD, BK, KFC.

well, actually go to any individual market adn you will find many, many more fast food chains. For example in the southern US, we have hardees, zaxby's, mc d's, Bk, moes, backyard burger and etc... Yes Mcd's may be in the most markets they don't share the market power individually.

and even when...

There are basically two commercial operating system producers, Apple and Microsoft.

this has to do with output elasticities. It's actually okor rather a good thing that their are few suppliers when output elasticity is low. The market forces that regulate that industry have just as much effect if that particular market was like the fast food industry and had many.

And then if you want to get even more technical we could throw time into the equation, but... I don't want to over complicate issues.

[Tom Paine]

Actually, in Britain, there aren't large numbers of fast food places. Not of the same sort (quick, cheap) as those I mentioned. In fact, those I mentioned are the only sort I've seen.

And competition is not a universal panacaea either; it has its own problems, based on the market-size and wealth distribution, for non-essentials...