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Thread: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

  1. #1
    DukeofSerbia's Avatar Decanus
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    Icon14 Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Hello.

    Last days I moded game, and tried to create better viewable cod. And I found in export_descr_units.txt something interesting.
    CA had intentions to include war wagons and walls in MII TW, but for some unknown reason they never finish them, which I will show.

    INVESTIGATION – PART ONE

    Open export_descr_units.txt, hit Ctrl+F, and type wagon.

    You’ll get this:

    Code:
    type             CE Wagon Fort
    dictionary       CE_Wagon_Fort      ; Wagon Fort
    category         infantry
    class            missile
    voice_type       Heavy
    accent         East_European
    banner faction   main_missile
    banner holy      crusade
    soldier          CE_Wagon_Fort, 48, 0, 1
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, no_custom, wagon_fort, crossbow
    formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health      1, 0
    stat_pri         16, 3, steel_crossbow_bolt, 160, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1
    ;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
    stat_pri_attr    ap
    stat_sec         13, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
    ;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
    stat_sec_attr    no
    stat_pri_armour  4, 8, 0, leather
    ;stat_armour_ex   4, 5, 0, 0, 8, 0, 0, leather
    stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat        3
    stat_ground      1, -2, 3, 2
    stat_mental      9, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay  18
    stat_food        60, 300
    stat_cost        1, 1250, 150, 90, 70, 1250, 4, 310
    armour_ug_levels 1, 2
    armour_ug_models CE_Wagon_Fort, CE_Wagon_Fort_ug1
    ownership        poland, hungary, slave
    ;unit_info        13, 16, 12
    Interesting, really. This unit can’t be found neither in custom battle, and campaign. What is really interesting are attributes of unit:
    Code:
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, no_custom, wagon_fort, crossbow
    Delete no_custom, and unit will become available in custom battles.

    In menu:




    In battle:




    But, where are the war wagons?! Well, CA didn’t put them for unit for unknown reason(s).
    What bother me is wagon_fort attribute.

    More bad news. There is unit for Russia Gulay Gorod which is the same unit like Wagon Fort. Delete no_custom, and you’ll see them:



    Maybe somebody remember IGN preview of Russia: http://pc.ign.com/articles/731/731089p3.html Gulay Gorod is described in preview, but wasn’t finished, which probably means that IGN didn’t see game, and just wrote what CA/SEGA provided. Who cares for that any more, anyway ?

    INVESTIGATION – PART TWO

    Go in data\ui\units.

    Example: enter in Denmark folder. You can see #ne_wagonwall.tga and, #ne_warwagon.tga. Well, most European factions have ui for war wagons and wagon walls. This is evidence that CA had intentions to include them, but they didn’t.

    But, why they didn’t?

    Further investigation showed that there are actually models for them. Open siege_engines folder. There are fortification_wagonwall.mesh and fortification_warwagon.mesh files!
    If you quick compare them with other siege engines, you see that two files missing: .modelreferencepoints and .modeltraversablenetwork. Half finished product…

    In textures subfolder I found:
    fortification_wagonwall.texture
    fortification_wagonwall_bump.texture
    war_wagon.texture
    war_wagon_bump.texture

    And you can open them. Both textures are almost the same.



    And that’s it. There are no more models and animations for them.

    Good news
    Animations for siege engines are in .cas, so, animations for war wagons and walls can be created.

    Bad news
    We can’t work with .mesh files. And that mean: collision_models, destroyed, lods, and unitmodelsrefpoints can’t be done.

    IN REALITY

    I played a bit with files. I managed to “create” appearance of war wagons and walls.

    Open descr_engine.txt. I used great standart of Milan and Venice for creating wagons and walls.

    Code:
    type				great_standart_milan
    culture				all
    class				holy_cart
    pathfinding_data	none
    reference_points	siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.modelReferencePoints
    area_effect         ae_holy_inspiration
    
    engine_model_group	normal
    engine_skeleton		Great_bell_tower_standard
    engine_bone_map		siege_engines/BoneMaps/Great_Bell_Tower_standard.xml
    engine_collision	siege_engines/collision_models/belltower_collide.CAS
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.mesh, 40.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.mesh,  80.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.mesh,  max
    
    engine_model_group	dying
    engine_skeleton		Great_bell_dying
    engine_bone_map		siege_engines/BoneMaps/belltower_destruct.xml
    engine_collision	siege_engines/collision_models/belltower_collide.CAS
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/destroyed/greatbell_milan_destruction.mesh,  max
    
    engine_model_group	dead
    engine_collision	siege_engines/collision_models/belltower_collide.CAS
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/destroyed/greatbell_milan_destroyed.mesh,  max
    
    engine_shadow		none
    
    engine_radius		3
    engine_visual_radius 3
    engine_length		5
    engine_width		3.2
    engine_height		11
    engine_mass			6
    engine_dock_dist	1.5
    engine_mob_dist		4
    engine_flammable    true
    engine_ignition		0.5
    fire_effect		    engine_fire_medium_set
    
    obstacle_shape		rectangle
    obstacle_x_radius	1.6
    obstacle_y_radius	2.5
    
    engine_formation  8, 7
    
    engine_spo physical_obstacle
    
    engine_health		10
    Easier method – change in engine_mesh lines, and put the following (I put it for Venice):
    Code:
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_warwagon.mesh, 40.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_warwagon.mesh,  80.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_warwagon.mesh,  max
    And for Milan:
    Code:
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_wagonwall.mesh, 40.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_wagonwall.mesh,  80.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_wagonwall.mesh,  max
    A bit harder – it should be like this:
    Code:
    type				standart_venice
    culture				all
    class				holy_cart
    pathfinding_data	none
    reference_points	siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.modelReferencePoints
    
    
    engine_model_group	normal
    engine_skeleton		Great_bell_tower_standard
    engine_bone_map		siege_engines/BoneMaps/Great_Bell_Tower_standard.xml
    engine_collision	siege_engines/collision_models/catapult_collision.CAS
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_warwagon.mesh, 40.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_warwagon.mesh,  80.0
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/fortification_warwagon.mesh,  max
    
    engine_model_group	dying
    engine_skeleton		Great_bell_dying
    engine_bone_map		siege_engines/BoneMaps/belltower_destruct.xml
    engine_collision	siege_engines/collision_models/belltower_collide.CAS
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/destroyed/greatbell_venice_destruction.mesh,  max
    
    engine_model_group	dead
    engine_collision	siege_engines/collision_models/belltower_collide.CAS
    engine_mesh			siege_engines/destroyed/greatbell_venice_destroyed.mesh,  max
    
    engine_shadow		none
    
    engine_radius		3       ;7.0
    engine_visual_radius	7.0
    engine_length		5
    engine_width		3.2
    engine_height		11
    engine_mass			6
    engine_dock_dist	1.5
    engine_mob_dist		4
    engine_flammable    true
    engine_ignition		0.5
    fire_effect		    engine_fire_medium_set
    
    obstacle_shape		rectangle
    obstacle_x_radius	1.6
    obstacle_y_radius	2.5
    
    engine_formation  8, 7
    
    engine_spo physical_obstacle
    
    engine_health		10
    I changed type, erased area effect, and, of course, engine mesh is changed. I really don’t know what every parameter mean.

    If you did everything well, you’ll see them in game.
    War wagons:



    War walls:



    Some Q&A about wagons and walls:

    Q: Can they move, or they are stationary?
    A: Yes, they can move, and you unit can abandon them, and again use them, just like other siege engines. However, because there is no animation for them, they are static when they are moved, and soldiers push invisible wall.

    Q: Can they be destroyed?
    A: Of course, I did it with artillery, but destroyed model is from greatbell_venice_destroyed.mesh, or other (depends from what you put). I already wrote that there is no mesh for it.

    Q: How AI handle in attacking wagons and walls?
    A: I created ¾ circles, and AI attacked through gaps, but only several soldiers, so your units easily massacre them. This is especially case for cavalry (I idealize a bit ). Expect bugs like this one:



    Q: Does AI use wagons/walls in attack?
    A: Yes, they push them, which is funny . After they closed enough, AI release units from pushing, and attack.

    Q: Can I put my unit in wagon?
    A: No, you can’t. Wagon, like wall, is for defending (slowing down enemy charge).

    END OF BEGINNING

    If we get .mesh converter war wagons and walls can be finished easy.

    I really don’t know how to attach wagons and walls to other units, except for Carroccio Standard for Venice and Milan.
    When I add this line in EDU:
    Code:
    engine           great_standart_venice
    To CE Wagon Fort unit, game crash is start. Then I change category of unit from infantry into siege, and add standard as attribute, and nothing. Game start, but there is no wagon. When wagon fort unit (crossbowmen) starts to fight, game crash. I think that is impossible to add wagons/walls to any unit which has two weapons, because bugs occur. I just guess, but maybe CA had the same problem, and they abandon idea of including them because of it.

    Carroccio Standard can be other to any other faction. Read here about it: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=74945 Good news is there are ui for both wagons and walls, you just need texture.
    And how to eliminate armored spearmen as soldiers? I don’t know. Maybe via .modeldb, but I didn’t try. If somebody solves it, please post it.

    Happy moding.
    United Soviet States of America
    form of government - financial dictatorship

    Liberalism is a mental illness!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    its about time someone takes care of this ! Well done homeboy from Serbia !
    You rocked, i will do it at home to see

    thanks mate

  3. #3

    Icon2 Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    well done DUKE this is most welcome
    Last edited by aleksandar macedonian II; February 07, 2007 at 09:29 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Great job Duke!

    Now, will it be possible to mod people into them and make horses pull these things. The first one is crucial and also to make them trully like a wall (units going through them like ghosts, defeats the purpose).


    The Story of Janosik <>Courtesy of Cracker Monkey and ARCHER29

  5. #5
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Nicely done, Duke
    Duke's crackin' again

  6. #6
    Tsar Stefan Dusan IV's Avatar Loonatic on the loose!!
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Everything I have ever mannaged was to add Gulay Gorod as crossbowmen, I smacked my head in the wall but that didn't help either (imagine that )

    Brilliant I would dare to say...

    He isn't called Duke for nothing......

  7. #7
    Opifex
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    You could borrow a rigid frame from another object, such as a battering ram, so that you have a suitably square impassable area with similar dimensions to the wagon.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  8. #8
    Methoz's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    very nice using of bohemian wagon fort...omg,its hussites,..mega unreal..hungary,venice etc... im "destoryed"
    TotalWarForum.cz
    Česko-Slovenské fórum o hrách ze série Total War

  9. #9

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Maybe we can try ram as modding base then insert wargon mesh entity.
    If only there were working animations! Outputs would be way better.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Interesting line:
    type great_cross
    engine_flammable false ;;; Bob. This'll probably come back as a bug. Please don't fix it as we're not aiming for an endorsement from the KKK

  11. #11

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    I tried ram, no luck.
    Tried enabling sapping also, no luck.
    Wagonwall and warwagon have to be the same type of engine as great cross that can appear in field battle.
    Ram is siege engine and will only show up in siege battle.
    And unit type is restricted.
    Unless we get mesh tools, i think, complete implementation is impossible.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    I think this mod to be wonderful.

    By the way, please let me question.
    The wagon is located first in the direction that is length.
    However, I want to do this horizontally.
    Moreover, I have increased the number of wagons in a unit.

    Please teach me,
    how to mod to line up in transverse as for siege model.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    we do have mesh tools now though GOM

  14. #14

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    i replace "engine_mesh siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.mesh, 40.0
    engine_mesh siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.mesh, 80.0
    engine_mesh siege_engines/great_bell_tower_standard_milan.mesh, max"

    by "siege_engines/fortification_wagonwall.mesh, 40.0
    engine_mesh siege_engines/fortification_wagonwall.mesh, 80.0
    engine_mesh siege_engines/fortification_wagonwall.mesh, max" and i get a ctd. PLease tell me what else i need to do so at least i have them appear in game ?

    thank you

  15. #15

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Is there an update to this on getting wagons to move etc.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    has anybody done this successful ? i get a ctd when doing what he writes... any other explanation

  17. #17

    Icon6 Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Actually.... There are war wagons. and it's annoying. If you don't believe me, try this, start a game, create a war wagon (you know, open console, etc... CE War Wagon. Anyway, run those pioneers out there until they turn traitor. Now go fight them. What is this? a circle of wagons. Just like settlers fighting off the Indians. WHAT?!?! yeah. I was miffed. I can't do that. I just get *yawn* more crossbowmen.

  18. #18
    Opifex
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Wow -- why wasn't this thread resurrected when the .mesh was cracked?


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  19. #19
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Wow -- why wasn't this thread resurrected when the .mesh was cracked?
    Because the Tools, Tutorials, and Resources (and the Mod Workshop in general) are terribly undocumented? That would be my guess. Interesting concept discussed here at any rate.

    Cheers,
    Augustus

  20. #20
    KnightErrant's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Enabling War Wagons and Wagon Walls

    Well, Grumpy's converter only works on human units, but all the other
    siege engines can be converted with GOAT. But without animations can't
    get the skeleton, maybe make one up?

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