Thureophoroi/Thorakitai

[DimeBagHo]

The current Thureophoroi in XGM are somewhat mis-named. The historical Thureophoroi were heavy peltasts, most similar to the vanilla Heavy Peltast unit. The easiest way to correct this problem would be to re-name the current Thureophoroi to something like Doryphoroi (which just means spearmen) and to re-name the current Heavy Peltasts to Thureophoroi.

We could also take this another step and make the current Heavy Peltast unit more like the historical Thureophoroi by making them javalin/spear rather than javelin/sword. That would probably make them more useful as well.

There are a few different views about what Thorakitai were: (1) Extra heavy peltasts - a better armoured version of Thureophoroi; (2) Copy Legionaries (this is the view that most Roman authors took); (3) Hoplites with cheaper equipment, who had abandoned use of the phalanx (this is the current interpretation used in XGM). I think something like the current EB version of Thorakitai would be nice (closest to option (1)) - pretty much the same as the current unit, but with a few heavy javelins.

[Cymera]

Sounds good, what about renaming the Roman units in Latin? just throwing it out there, since there are great new skins, unit cards, a latin voice mod, all that would be missing would be Latin names. What do u guys think?

[RedFox]

I think a latin translation wouldn't be a great idea as it would get player more confused than it would've acctually helped him...

[Lysander13]

As a player and big fan of XGM..here's my 2 cents worth....
I like DBH's idea of where to go with the Thureophoroi/Thorakitai. I would
not like to see the Hypaspists replaced. Perhaps a different skin to differentiate between the Agema Hypaspists of Macedon and the Hypaspists that the GCS can recruit...but if that's too much trouble..I'd just as soon leave it the same..Please don't replace these units.

I however do like Zarax's idea of making the imitation legionaries more similar
to the Thorakitai than pure legion.

I think a latin translation wouldn't be a great idea as it would get player more confused than it would've acctually helped him...

Couldn't agree more..Not to say really that the crowd that plays these kind of mods are prone to being confused over such things. Actually the opposite may be true. I agree from the standpoint where realism and historical accuracy is nice...however in my opinion it can be a little overrated in certain respects. For instance latin or greek translations of units. This isn't something i need to make the game itself more enjoyable to me. I can take
it or leave it.

[HopliteLysander]

I like the idea of changing up the Heavy Peltasts and Thureophoroi and giving the Thorakitai a few javelins. To me that makes historical, and gameplay sense as I basically never use thorakitai as hoplites and Hypaspists work better imho.

Honestly I would like to see the Hypaspists with short spears like the hoplites, but be able to form a phalanx. They would be able to fight as a phalanx as Hypaspists were able to do (though at a disadvantage due to shorter spears and lower numbers), but their shorter spears high morale and decent armour and sword attack would ensure they are still useful as the shock/flank troops that they are.

To me the javelin throwing/sword fighting guys they are now seem like Greek "Legions". This would also help distinguish them from the Thorakitai, so they wouldn't overlap so much.

Thats just a wishlist, there's obvioulsy work going on on tons of other units.
And it is clear, especially from reading the readme file that a lot of time and thought has already been put into the Hypaspists.
Cheers!

[Dulce_et_Decorum_Est]

I think a latin translation wouldn't be a great idea as it would get player more confused than it would've acctually helped him...

Not if the player potest dicere latine.


Also, isn't it possible to have multiple Marius-style reforms?

[Zarax]

What about using the EB setup?
We can have a cheap hoplite-like unit for garrison (ekdromoi), heavy peltasts pretty much like they are now, thureophoroi with some armour (linothorax) and javelin/spear/thureos and thorakitai as heavier/elite version of thureophoroi and replacing hypaspists.

On that note, most imitation legionaries should be made similar to thorakitai more than pure legion...

[RedFox]

But what about that unit you mentioned a while ago, the one to replace gcs hypaspists? (the one in EB)
I could remove taxeis militia alltogether as they have but little use in the game at the moment (read as: none). The Thureophoroi -> Thorakitai idea would be awesome acctually, as I never acctually used them, because I had hypaspists.
Ekdromoi could stay as the low-grade unit it is, and I could probably replace peasants completely with taxeis militia.
Thureophoroi would get a morale boost and javelins, thorakitai would replace hypaspists and maybe even have that other hypaspist-like unit included.

[RedFox]

I have found a perfect use for the Ekdromoi, I'm just adding Olympia on the campaign map and going to make the Ekdromoi recruitable only there. Would work better with the fast infantry concept, as the Olympic games are held there...
After marian reforms though, every greek city can recruit them...

[Zarax]

Well, what I'm trying to do is to have a good mix between variety and historical accuracy, as GCS had a different roster than the successors...

For me things could go like this:

lvl1: militia hoplites/ekdromoi - peltasts

lvl2: levy phalanx - heavy peltasts (current version)

lvl3: phalanx - hoplites - thureophoroi (javelin/spear/thureos with slightly less armour than hoplites/phalangites)

lvl4: armoured phalangites - thorakitai (heavier armour than thureophoroi, better attack and fewer, stronger javs) and maybe an heavier hoplite unit

lvl5: spartan phalangites - sacred band (elite hoplites)

ekdromoi, thureophoroi and thorakitai could be made post marian units due to the current game pace while most hoplite units could be pre-marian only.

The idea is to give the player an earlier choice between hoplites and phalanx as main line inf while phalangites would become the late main battle line, considering that we could implement greeks with a more open formation but better at hand to hand (maybe having thureos as shield) to reflect the different approach greeks had to phalanx warfare even after they switched from hoplites.

[RedFox]

I must disagree if you indeed want to put thureophoroi, thorakitai and ekdromoi as post marian units, mainly because ekdromoi were used even before the battle of Chaeronea (not too long from that though). They became one of the main weapons against the heavy spartan hoplites. Thorakitai could go post-marian only if the rest of the greek Army Barracks units go post marian too. (while royal barracks wants marian reforms) Army barracks would then give the city barracks units +1 exp, like Royal Barracks gives to Army Barracks units.
That would limit the player expansion, though it would be quite unrealistic.

[RedFox]

As far as I know there can be only one Marius-style reform...

[Zarax]

Well, I was just outlining possible options redfox, it would be nice to emulate the hoplite shift to more mobile units but unfortunately you get only one reform in game...

[Dulce_et_Decorum_Est]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that EB has sucessive reforms.

[RedFox]

Actually, I am pretty sure that EB has a huge background script that XGM doesn't have.

[Dulce_et_Decorum_Est]

Being a scripting n00b, am I to assume that this would make multiple reforms impractical?

[RedFox]

There's no need for these reforms. As far as i'm concerned, we could just script a date that adds a building, that allows training of a certain unit(s)...

[Dulce_et_Decorum_Est]

Oh. That's quite clever and to the point.

[DimeBagHo]

On reforms: There can only be one Marius event that works just like the one in vanilla RTW, and it is hard to modify the conditions under which it occurs. But you can emulate the Marius event with a script, and you can have as many of the emulated "Marius" events as you like.

The method used by EB in their first release (spawning buildings and making recruitment conditional on the presence of the buildings) does not work under RTW 1.5/1.6. In the current release of EB the way they do this is to spawn buildings and make the construction of new barracks conditional on these buildings. In other words, after the reforms you have to build new barracks to get the new units.

It is unlikely that this sort of system will be adopted in XGM just because of the amount of work involved.

On Hypaspists: I'm inclined to keep them more-or-less the way they are. They are not especially realistic, or unrealistic. The surviving Hellenistic states did all trend towards Roman style units in the late Hellenistic period, and it is reasonable to suppose that if the city states had retained their independence they would have continued in this direction. Also they fill a gap in the GCS and Macedonian rosters (heavy sword infantry).

On Ekdromoi: They sound like fun. They are not suitable as a first level garrison unit just because they are supposed to be made up of fast runners, rather than shop-keepers who have been handed a spear and told which way to point it. They are also anachronistic. Historically they were an infantry solution to the problem of catching or driving off light infantry. By the game period the Greeks had cavalry to fill that role. However, I like tactical variety in units, so RedFox's idea of limiting recruitment to Olympia sounds promising.

On Garrison Troops: I don't think a Hoplite style unit makes sense here. By the game period the number of men who could provide their own equipment and training to serve as Hoplites was severely limited, and when states turned to paying and equiping militias, they usually went for cheaper options. I'm inclined to stick with the current basic spear unit, but some other reasonable options are: (1) Lower the stats of levy pikemen and make them the basic garrison unit (this is probably the most realistic option); (2) A Caetrati style basic sword unit.

Copy Legionaries: I agree with Zarax that these should be changed to look more like Thorakitai/Eastern Heavy Infantry. Maybe the Silver Shield Legionaries should look more like replicas of the Roman Legionaries, but making them look like the current Immortals is also a possibility.

[Agathon]

As to language, I like the earlier unit info scrolls that I see in early screenshots that have actual greek translations of the anglicized unit names. Most people may have found it an annoyance, but as a first time player brousing for his first mod, it helped influence my decision to install XGM. If Latin names are agreable, why not Greek names too? If an unintended benefit of the mod is to pick up a bit of second hand language education while entertaining the user, so be it. Nothing's lost really from the entertainment and something may be gained from the exposure to culture.

As for Thurophroi, DBH, as usual, is right about their heavy peltast identity. It's how they entered history in the Peloponnesian wars. In XGM, we tend to build for Phalanx vs. Phalanx or Legionary vs. Phalanx tactical battles with Thurophoroi and other troops exercising ancillary roles on the flanks or before or behind the main line of battle. I contend that such auxillaries historically were largely raised (usually as mercenaries) in far greater numbers than the heavy infantry and mainly operated as independent formations of skirmishers and guerillas. As such they were very useful troops for waging economic warfare against one's enemies and terror strikes against the productivity and even the civilian population of a province. Short of besieging a city, I can't think of a way to simulate the kind of devastation that would have occured during an attack of light troops on a city's supporting countryside, can you?