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  1. #1
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    I joined the site a few years ago and never dreamt that I would be in the situation I now find myself in. I wish to thank the Community for their support and patience. I also wish to thank those who have sent me messages of support. It is appreciated. Since Ogre announced that he was going to sell the site there has been an upsurge in debate over the direction that the site was going in. Some want massive change whilst others want a gradual change from our current set up. I think there are a few who want no change at all. Forgive me whilst I present you a wordy post.

    I have spoken to people. I have listened and I have read. The result is what I am about to propose now. I present it to the Curia, not as something that is to be imposed but something that I would like for us to go to quickly. Being a Brit, I generally prefer for an evolution of processes and structure. I note that this is already happening in part in the Curia with the discussion over committees, for example. The Curia is, I am pleased to observe, developing key infrastructure in to do what it should always have been doing. It should be driving forward site policy if there is an issue. It should be the home to all within our Community and so many feel disenfranchised. At the end of the day, the Curia is part of the Community and the Community needs to use it to make its life here as rewarding as possible.

    My suggestion, inspired by WBK’s vision, is predicated on the following observations –
    • The Curia is interested in elections. OK. Let them have say in the areas they do have a valid role in - policy and Community. Moderator elections are an incredibly minor aspect.
    • The Curia has been brow beaten into submission over years. This accelerated this year. They need direction and input. This forms part of that. By focussing on policy and community affairs they should enhance the site in an effective way AND bring back meaning to the ranks in a tangible sense.
    • We are well resourced in capable people who can moderate etc - you are an excellent body of people who maintain a good level of conduct. It is testament to your colective efforts (and those who have since retired) that even during the troubles, people generally did not take advantage. We do have an achilles heel in the Technical arena and depend on Sim enormously (something I am highly indebted to personally). Mim has offered to help out in times of need, but a goal should be to ensure a level of indepedence and self reliance.
    • I bought this site for the Community. To horde all influence and power in the current setup is not tenable imo. Something needs to be given back - a carrot for the collective effort.
    • Hex has been very successful in guiding the site towards success.
    • The Curia has not actually harmed the site.
    • The Curia has actually been highly responsible in who it votes for in elections.
    • None of the problems over the past year have stemmed from the Curia
      • Staff discontent
      • ON interference
      • Some individuals from Staff playing to the crowd
    We are now in the situation where we no longer have to appease ON. I now find myself asking questions. Why is the Curia having a voice at the highest levels so wrong? So long as we follow a certain format for elections – no different from the system we utilised in September onwards - I fail to see a problem. It will be incumbent on us weeding out the more serious problem people and even then, look at the results. The Curia is more clued in than we think when you look at the result of any election.

    I ought to state now that the names I have used are not binding.

    1st Estate
    Made up of 4 Staffers, 2 Technical people, 1 Content, 1 Curia

    At its heart, the work of Hex is split. It continues to deal with many site issue but policy issues are taken out into a new body – the first Estate. Hex also provides 4 members of the new body. They choose. Hex can also deal with minor policy discussion within its own people, major policy discussion shall be referred to the First Estate.

    Hex has Primary control over the determination and enforcement of the Tos. They also deal with all Staff affairs, including the hiring and firing of Staff. Moderators do not need to be elected at the moment. I genuinely feel that they are a distraction from the Curia’s primary focus. Hex also has the technical responsibility taken away from it. It is so highly specialised that it warrants its own little department.

    Hex determines its own size. Any who are not on the 1st Estate still hold an equal say withihn Hex and have admin rights that their roles demand. Hex determines who is a member of Hex. It should be as flexible as possible to take into account the demands of the Site which do change over time.

    The remaining two places on the 1st Estate are the province of the Curia. One deals with Content and the other is the Curator. Both are expected to abide by the staff nondisclosure agreement. Sitting on this body confers no extra admin rights beyond those demanded by the roles elected for.

    Ultimately I am hoping the site is self financing. If so, I’d like that group to have a major say over the finances too. But we need to see how that side develops.

    2nd Estate – CDC
    Made up of 16 elected members of the Citizenry

    3rd Estate – Citizenry (1 rep)
    The Citizenry – the current Curia.

    The Community is lumped together in the form of the 3rd Estate. It’s political home is the Curia (I’d like that renamed to a more appropriate name). This also elects the 2nd Estate (CDC) which fulfils the duties it currently deals with. As current, Patricians should make up this group as they represent experienced members of good standing.

    I also would like to make use of the Senatorii to take over the role of the Tribunal. They have a lot of experience, why not use it? I’d also like them to advise on the ToS - it is available to be changed as we see fit. This requires a seachange in terms of culture within Staff - whilst we should not be beholden to the Curia over our decisions, those retired people can still help us maintain a decent level of service. We should not be afraid to both accept this and justify our own decisions at times. I’d also ideally like them to have 4 seats on the 2nd Estate, though this was not successful before. If the Senatorii prove unable to fulfil the Tribunal function it will get reabsorbed by Hex, along similar lines to now.

    4th Estate – Content (1 Rep)
    Deals specifically with content. Drawn from Estates General too (writers). 3rd Estate has input via editors (perhaps choosing them?)

    Content is a key area that has developed recently. Belisarius has been an amazing developer of this side. He follows on from the advances made by Justinian earlier last year. I have always taken the view that we have some amazing writers. Give it some autonomy. It still needs to be overseen by Hex. The debate ovcer the Freedom of the Press Bill demonstrates to me that this is the right approach. It is good to remember that Content published is 'Official' and mechanisms need to be emplaced to ensure that this continues. The current set up, I feel is the way to go. It protects the site and gives the 3rd Estate freedom of action.

    Estates General – General membership.
    General membership. The most important and least remembered group. I’d like for the old system of self proposals to be allowed just as was the case when the system started.

    Technical
    Current members of Staff who deal with the software directly. Very highly specialised but have access to all places. This is an area we are terribly vulnerable in as it is so specialised. I’d like for it to be thought of as being separate so that Sim and Mim get replacements who are not burdened by being Staff etc.

    Of course, members here will have access to both Staff and Senior Staff forums or just Staff depending upon their experience within the site. This is left to the discretion of the concurrent technical expert (currently Sim).

    Now we come to how it looks…








    The two images are not alternatives but used as it was getting too complicated.

    Ultimately, the guiding principle that should be implemented is:

    If the Curia propose an idea that is fiscally viable, technically viable, and able to win over a majority (2/3) of the Curia, it is implemented. Ideas that do not meet the requirements are not voted on or vetoed.


    This is not a fully fleshed out proposal but it is almost there in many ways. This attempts to deal with structure only, the processes (many of which are in place or proposed) are outside of this particular discussion (unless something is impossible to implement.

  2. #2
    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    It should be noted that this proposal is from Imb, but does not necessarily reflect the wishes of hex.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    I fully support this proposal. Could do with some minor tweaks, but overall it is a good idea.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Though it is complicated, I believe this is a good proposal. I do think it will be hard to implement and get it running, but once it get past that I think it will run smoothly.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Very interesting, not just the proposal but the replies. We shall see where this goes. We will see.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  6. #6

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Reminds me of France I support. I think Scottishranger is right, but with the new level of activity and no ON, I think this will work well
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  7. #7
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    I don't think it is a vast change from what we have (had) so I think it is worth supporting. Since most people outside of hex haven't really voiced many objections maybe the people from Hex could post them so that those with less aptitude for politics could understand possible faults?

    So far so good though. I mean if it doesn't work we can always reshuffle but it I can't see an issue.

    Peter

  8. #8
    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    I don't think it is a vast change from what we have (had) so I think it is worth supporting. Since most people outside of hex haven't really voiced many objections maybe the people from Hex could post them so that those with less aptitude for politics could understand possible faults?

    So far so good though. I mean if it doesn't work we can always reshuffle but it I can't see an issue.

    Peter
    Ok, I'll run through my general objections. It should be noted, that I agree with much of the general intent of Imb's proposal, namely the guiding principle Imb proposed. However, I think Imb's plan does a poor job of implementing the supporting the principle, hence my objection.


    1st Estate - The primary objection I have. I don't see the need. How is it capable of running the site better than hex is? Especially considering becoming a member of hex is based on your ability to help run the site, so hex is the optimal model for site management, if you think the best people should be doing a given job. Further, I'm concerned with the effect this proposal would have on hex. It creates an inequality among hex members, as some have say on full policy, while others are limited to hex policy. Lastly, the "Curial seats" on the 1st estate fail to help the Curia at all, as Imb's plan gives the Curia say by giving it to two people instead of granting policy say to all.

    2nd and 3rd Estates - I object both to the lack of mechanisms granted to the Curia, and to the granting of senatorii the tribunal. The Curia gains no say in this proposal. Now, compare this to what those who favored a simpler more focused plan in hex, who have already moved to create the Curial decisions bill and so forth. As for the senatorii forming the tribunal, I think it is a flawed ideal. First off, senatorii have resigned for a reason. Second, why is that if your a trib you can't overrule anyone, but if you resign, you can now overrule any moderation decision right on through hex and imb? Its illogical. Also, I don't trust that every senatorii is capable of handling the resposibility of overturning moderation decisions, hell, I'm not sure I trust all of staff in that regard.
    I don't like the idea of non-staff being able to overturn any within staff, and I think the system we have run since the creation of TWC, higher ranks can overturn lower ranks, has always proven effective.

    4st Estate - I don't think that content should be seperate from general staff. It, of course, deals with a different area, but moderation staff and content staff are each staff in my mind.

    Estates General - I don't what Imb is speaking off when he says the old system of self-referrals, so perhaps I need that explained to me. But I do know that the current system of patronization has been around since I joined the site, and has always proven very effective.

    Technical - I don't like this group being broken off from current staff. It has never been an issue before, and provides no tangible benefits while potencially creating strife.




    Thats a quick summery of my major objections. I can go further if some provide reason to.
    tBP knows how to handle a sword. -Last Crusader

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  9. #9
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    I have been asked a question regarding the role of Hex and 1st Estate.

    From Hex, I wrote -

    On the front page of Hex these topics could be looked at by the new body -
    Constitution
    Initiative Needed: Give the Curia some action
    Garb proposes: A forum where we keep historical threads of TWC
    Setting up a new Tutorial Forum
    The Tavern

    These would not be part of its remit -

    Appointment of new Hex/moderators
    XYZ as Content Manager
    Total War/modding admin?
    Unban XYZ?
    These are a selection of topics. Some would go to the new body (top lot) others would remain in Hex.

    As Fab has correctly said, There is a mixed response in Hex. Some like it, some do not.
    Last edited by imb39; February 04, 2007 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #10
    Spiff's Avatar That's Ffips backwards
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    I as a Patrician currently do not support - i believe excellent progress is already being made in the Prothalamos in defining the relationship between the senior staff and the Curia and I'd like to see how that continues before enacting total reforms.
    Under the patronage of Tacticalwithdrawal | Patron of Agraes

  11. #11
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    haha, I love the diagrams. Anyhoo, will regular lowly civitates such as myself be able to vote again?
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    haha, I love the diagrams. Anyhoo, will regular lowly civitates such as myself be able to vote again?
    You can vote now anyway....

  13. #13
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    You already can. that, as always, is the province of the Curia

  14. #14
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by imb39 View Post
    You already can. that, as always, is the province of the Curia
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  15. #15
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Please explain about the part that "would not be in its remit" (would stay in hex or something I am confused)

    Initiative Needed: Give the Curia some action - Staff only I would have thought, of course what the curia wants the curia will open up threads for so its a non issue I would have thought

    Garb proposes: A forum where we keep historical threads of TWC - Subject to hex approval since it involves structure of site and technical issues but could be discussed and approved by curia


    Setting up a new Tutorial Forum - See last point


    The Tavern -

    Appointment of new Hex/moderators - If appointment not election is good enough for Britain it is good enough for me. This has been done over though.

    XYZ as Content Manager - Aristocracy of talent for this one so hex only

    Total War/modding admin? - Possibility of introducing one, hex decision


    Unban XYZ? - Staff decision

  16. #16
    Tacticalwithdrawal's Avatar Ghost
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Looks really good for me, will (and already seems to have) upset the traditionalists but for the rest of us I think this is a really good way forward and will hopefully focus the Curia (Assembly?) on more important things than staff.

    One question, one clarification:

    Q - what is the role of owner in all this?

    Clarification -
    3rd Estate – Citizenry (1 rep)
    The Citizenry – the current Curia.

    The Community is lumped together in the form of the 3rd Estate. It’s political home is the Curia (I’d like that renamed to a more appropriate name). This also elects the 2nd Estate (CDC) which fulfils the duties it currently deals with. As current, Patricians should make up this group as they represent experienced members of good standing.
    I assume the bloded bit refers to the CdeC (ie. only Patricians can be in the CdeC) rather than the Curia?
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    One thing I do not understand is the difference between Hex and the 1st estate. Who makes up each 'council'? What are their roles? etc.

  18. #18
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacticalwithdrawal View Post
    Looks really good for me, will (and already seems to have) upset the traditionalists but for the rest of us I think this is a really good way forward and will hopefully focus the Curia (Assembly?) on more important things than staff.
    Exactly

    One question, one clarification:

    Q - what is the role of owner in all this?
    I shall be involved in the 1st Estate primarily but I shall also try and keep involved in Technical (though I'll be a lead balloon in there) and Staff.

    My invovlement in the Curia will be similar to what it is now, I suppose.

    Clarification -


    I assume the bloded bit refers to the CdeC (ie. only Patricians can be in the CdeC) rather than the Curia?
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes. 2nd Estate only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Please explain about the part that "would not be in its remit" (would stay in hex or something I am confused)
    Hex's role is being split. The threads I posted were on the front page of the Hex forum. I used them as examples to indicate the dividing line.

    Initiative Needed: Give the Curia some action - Staff only I would have thought, of course what the curia wants the curia will open up threads for so its a non issue I would have thought

    Garb proposes: A forum where we keep historical threads of TWC - Subject to hex approval since it involves structure of site and technical issues but could be discussed and approved by curia


    Setting up a new Tutorial Forum - See last point


    The Tavern -

    Appointment of new Hex/moderators - If appointment not election is good enough for Britain it is good enough for me. This has been done over though.

    XYZ as Content Manager - Aristocracy of talent for this one so hex only

    Total War/modding admin? - Possibility of introducing one, hex decision


    Unban XYZ? - Staff decision

    The green issues should be dealt with by the 1st Estate. The Hex still retains control of the blue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    One thing I do not understand is the difference between Hex and the 1st estate. Who makes up each 'council'? What are their roles? etc.
    The 1st Estate deals with policy issues primarily. They do not deal with Staff, for example UNLESS one of the Hexers who sits on the 1st Estate brings it up for a particular reason. The Hexers who sit on the 1st Estate are still Hexers (as in this is an extension of their privileges and does not replace them).

    In effect this wll mean there will be, in effect, 3 groups of moderators.
    • Front line moderators
    • Senior Staff
    • Senior Staff who sit on the 1st Estate.
    Last edited by Perikles; April 17, 2007 at 03:04 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by imb39 View Post
    The 1st Estate deals with policy issues primarily. They do not deal with Staff, for example UNLESS one of the Hexers who sits on the 1st Estate brings it up for a particular reason. The Hexers who sit on the 1st Estate are still Hexers (as in this is an extension of their privileges and does not replace them).

    In effect this wll mean there will be, in effect, 3 groups of moderators.
    • Front line moderators
    • Senior Staff
    • Senior Staff who sit on the 1st Estate.
    I like this idea. It divides up the policy makers from the moderators as prof has said before, good moderators do not always make good policy makers/administrators.

    I assume then that the 1st estate are admins (Consul like), Hex are Global moderators (Praetor like) and the Front-line mods are local moderators (Quaestor like).

  20. #20
    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    Default Re: Too many Estates, not enough parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    I like this idea. It divides up the policy makers from the moderators as prof has said before, good moderators do not always make good policy makers/administrators.
    Hex has always been policy makers instead of moderators. Certainly in my time. We have a number of great moderators who have served for a long time who are not in hex because they haven't made the policy contributions needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    I assume then that the 1st estate are admins (Consul like), Hex are Global moderators (Praetor like) and the Front-line mods are local moderators (Quaestor like).
    No. (Did you read it? It states this pretty clearly) In Imb's plan, 1st estate has no admin access by virtue of being first estate, while hex would still be admins.
    Last edited by Perikles; April 15, 2007 at 02:27 PM.
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