Title Removal Bill

[Tom Paine]

I hereby propose that we remove the following titles from the range available and extant:

• Artifex
• Opifex
• Divus

These titles add nothing but complexity and in some cases a good deal of controversy to the site; they give us no benefit and much woe. Artifex and Civitate mean the same thing and so should be merged; Opifex is awarded incredibly rarely, and appears to have been entirely forgotten; and Divus has no real benefit especially with the ontinuous expansion of who is allowed to hold the title. Why do we need these titles and this pettiness?

[Halie Satanus]

You don't own the games! so you have no understanding of the effort that goes into modding them. Civ and Artifex are only the same in terms of site politics in every other respect they are a million miles apart, Opifex is for the best modders, see first line.

Divus...Meh,

[Tom Paine]

But this does not explain why it deserves a totally separate reward. Hells, man, it doesn;'t even begin to. Fine it is hard... so? Doesn't mean that it should get a totally separate title. We once had only one title, why can we not return to that?

Opifex should be granted to all who make outstanding contributions. It isn't even being granted to modders who make such contributions now. Its a dead and meaningless title.

And Divus... well, yeah. It needs abolishment.

[Halie Satanus]

But this does not explain why it deserves a totally separate reward. Hells, man, it doesn;'t even begin to. Fine it is hard... so? Doesn't mean that it should get a totally separate title. We once had only one title, why can we not return to that?

Opifex should be granted to all who make outstanding contributions. It isn't even being granted to modders who make such contributions now. Its a dead and meaningless title.

And Divus... well, yeah. It needs abolishment.

Ok, i can't convince you in one post so I'm going to pm you the link and password for the EOD dev forums, it's a total conversion mod made almost totally by Makanyane and myself, take a look though the forum then imagine 3 times that amount of work going via PM's, if you still think Artifex isn't a viable rank then i fear you'll never understand.

Yes Opifex has been neglected but then it is highly regarded rank.

Thankfully your proposal has as much chance of passing as Ferrets has of being appointed to Hex, That i can promise.

[Tom Paine]

Question: Since Artifex has the same entry requirements, same status, and same prestige... infact, since it is the civitate rank by just another name... explain, please, why it is a better reward for the mod? See, you keep treating it as though it is something special and beyond the other citizen rank. It isn't, and its a false dichotomy to have the two ranks because of that. I want the rank abolished and all those who hold it remain promoted, remain citizens, but we reduce the number of ranks held of the same level.

[makanyane]

Ozy, two points, err three, no ones trying to claim it's a better rank - think its widely known that's its the same underneath, just more likely that modders would be interested in something presented as specifically for them rather than that normally worn predominently by TD debators.

Would you please ask existing Artifex / other modders their preference before abolishing it - when someone suggested merging colours I talked to modders that were unhappy about that idea, as it helps them and newby modders recognise each other.

Generally I think everyone's trying to get TW section a better voice in the Curia. Having Artifex badge as different can help indicate to members who don't know the individual where the others area of expertise lies.

Runs away to see if I've left any incriminating swear filter bypassing in dev forum....

[Halie Satanus]

Question: Since Artifex has the same entry requirements, same status, and same prestige... infact, since it is the civitate rank by just another name... explain, please, why it is a better reward for the mod? See, you keep treating it as though it is something special and beyond the other citizen rank. It isn't, and its a false dichotomy to have the two ranks because of that. I want the rank abolished and all those who hold it remain promoted, remain citizens, but we reduce the number of ranks held of the same level.

AH i see, a clear case of Artifex envy, i've seen this before, take one descr strat and two low poly lods, if that doesn't clear it up i suggest buying one of the games....

I'm being glib, sorry. I can't take this seriously because your trying to apply forum politics to the realm of modding and the two rarely mix, this is a fan site for the total war games the cool kids are modders that's a fact, the site has deemed that the cool kids should have a rank 'Artifex, the really cool kids can be Opifex, lots of sites have ways of rewarding the cool kids this is ours.

The fact we have rewards for the other members is down to the 'site' recognising that not all the cool kids are modders, so in that sense think yourself lucky that we even have Civ's or a syntagma, Curia, ect, Some sites don't.

And yes i know that Civ was a 'catch all', but things have moved on since those days.

[imb39]

I am wary of getting too involved - the Curia controls the ranks as far as I am concerned. THe reason why Artifex was brouhgt into existance is because their external work, which is crucial to the site, was not recognised. Provided a combined rank could GUARANTEE that modders do get the recogntion that they deserve then I see little harm in the two being absrobed. However, it does appear that there is a lot of affection for the Artifex rank. The key thing, as ever, is will people get the recognition?

[the Black Prince]

but on the other hand, having distinctions between modding and non modding members merely serves to further divides between different elements of the community, when we should be looking to draw them together. anything that promotes segregation and isolationism should be avoided.

i would move to abolish both civitate and artifex and replace both with a single rank - citizen.
you may wish to call citizen something else, but if you abolish artifex, you also need to get rid of civitate to avoid any impression, real or imagined that artifex is being merged into civitate, instead of both ranks being replaced by a single rank of citizen.

the added problem, as the CdeC has encountered a couple of times of late, is what to do with those members who could easily fulfill either rank, or who obviously meet some standard of citizenship we agree on, but don't match specific criteria for either rank. i won't comment on recent cases, though Ozy, look back through the decisions for some cases. There are plenty of members with a strong cross over between all sections of the site (and rightly so)

i'd leave Opifex and Divus though.

the rarity of both ranks is the reason for their existance. they are awarded only to those small select members of the community who have made exceptional contributions in their field, either as a member to the community or as a great leader of the community. notably examples of active divus and opifex include Siblesz (Divus, Leader) Spartan (Divus, Leader, Opifex, Modder) Lusted (Opifex, Modder) and Lord Rahl (Opifex, Sig and Badge Maker).

progression on the forums is hierarchical, and always will be, but the pinnacle to be reached is not that of administrator, its that of Opifex, because an Opifex is a symbol of the ultimate member who has not only been a good member, who has not only been a contributing member of quality, who has not only been a contributing member of quality whose contributions speak of dedication and commitment, but a member of such worth that without their contributions this site would not be what it is today.

That they confer no special powers or privildges is fine, because they serve as a recognition and award for absolute great service to our mighty community.

[Halie Satanus]

but on the other hand, having distinctions between modding and non modding members merely serves to further divides between different elements of the community, when we should be looking to draw them together. anything that promotes segregation and isolationism should be avoided.

What your missing is that the modding community is transient, every modder i know is a member of the .Org and most the Scc added to those a ton of mod specific sites RTR, Forth age, the Lords.. ect, add to those the vast number of nation specific sites, Surely our aim 'the big picture' is to encourage them to stay here.

So what's the message you want to put out 'TWC, modders are nothing special'. Of course the Artifex rank isn't the be all and end all of TWC but it does give modders something to strive for and as such keeps them loyal to the site, which is a good thing no??.

Look at it this way, many modders have been driven away from TWC because of the ranking system, more stay these days because they can see the site does recognise modding.

Or if you like, as an internet society we grasp any bit of individuality we can via sigs avatars, many go further than advertising a mod or thier favourite band, some people even tell us something personal about who they are, like.... yourself and Ozy.

Now that being said the over riding human condition of wanting to belong to a group has to come into play in some form, So what if I want to be recognised as a modder rather than a Civ, the rank is there for me to chose, i did the work so I'll take that, thanks.

[Professor420]

I'll mostly keep out of this because halie is doing a fine job already.

I am curious to see the ratio of modders to non-modders who would be in favour of abolishing both Opifex and Artifex... my feeling is anyone who has done any real modding would be quite against this idea, but we'll see.

Also, do not forget just recently WBK was made Opifex, not for his modding contributions, and Garb's Opifex vote lost by a single vote. Two cases of Opifex for non-modders (Rahl as well? Not sure.).

If you want to get rid of complexity, you should start with the Patrician rank. It serves a small governmental purpose, and no/little other purpose. The rest of those ranks serve no governmental purpose, but serve important other functions (rewards for members). If you want to clean up the government, then let us focus on that... consolidating all ranks would only shrink interest in the Curia, unfortunately, as well as alienate the most vital portion of the population (mods) for minimum benefit to the government.

Sorry if that's not as coherent as I would have liked, but this bill personally irks me in personal ways... I guess you have to be a modder (and maybe own the TW games) to begin to understand...

[Perikles]

If you want to get rid of complexity, you should start with the Patrician rank. It serves a small governmental purpose, and no/little other purpose. The rest of those ranks serve no governmental purpose, but serve important other functions (rewards for members). If you want to clean up the government, then let us focus on that... consolidating all ranks would only shrink interest in the Curia, unfortunately, as well as alienate the most vital portion of the population (mods) for minimum benefit to the government.

I 100% agree with this. Patrician is the most meaningless rank on the forum at the moment, closely followed by Divus and Opifex though in my opinion. The patrician rank is no longer needed as the only purpose it serves in that they can run for the CDC, just scrapping it would be the best thing to do to cut bureaucracy.

[Lusted]

I am against the removal of all 3 ranks.

Artifex and Civitates may be the same, but by having the distinction it shows who the modders are. I know it may seem a silly distinction, but modders like to show they have been rewarded for their modding work, and it helps to identify the few modders.

Opifex may be forgotten recently due to the fact that RTw modding is dying, and M2TW modding is still getting going. I do not expect to see any new Opifex for a while. But it a good rank, and shows that peoples contributions to the site are not forgotten.

Likewise with Divus.

[the Black Prince]

i still want Evariste for Opifex, for the podcasts lol

halie
by conferring citizenship on them for their modding work, we ARE recognising modders and the great work they do. i think you need to start disassociating citizen from civitate, since the two no longer perfectly overlap as they once did.
keeping with the analogy i suppose Opifex would be similar to granting the freedom of the forum to a member with special achievements

what other message would you like to send out Halie? that if you're not a modder, there's no point being at TWC, because the modders are the only people we value? That if you're not a modder, you're no one special?

i smewhat agree with the idea that "TWC, Modders are nothing special" because this isn't just a modding site. I fail to see why a member who does artwork for a mod is somehow considered more valuable to the community than someone who writes strategy guides, or who produces podcasts, or provides technical help and advice to members.

Its not that modders are nothing special, but that they are no more special than any other member who makes some great contribution to the community.

this site is the Total War Centre, not the Total Mod Centre

[Halie Satanus]

i still want Evariste for Opifex, for the podcasts lol

halie
by conferring citizenship on them for their modding work, we ARE recognising modders and the great work they do. i think you need to start disassociating citizen from civitate, since the two no longer perfectly overlap as they once did.
keeping with the analogy i suppose Opifex would be similar to granting the freedom of the forum to a member with special achievements

what other message would you like to send out Halie? that if you're not a modder, there's no point being at TWC, because the modders are the only people we value? That if you're not a modder, you're no one special?

i smewhat agree with the idea that "TWC, Modders are nothing special" because this isn't just a modding site. I fail to see why a member who does artwork for a mod is somehow considered more valuable to the community than someone who writes strategy guides, or who produces podcasts, or provides technical help and advice to members.

Its not that modders are nothing special, but that they are no more special than any other member who makes some great contribution to the community.

this site is the Total War Centre, not the Total Mod Centre

I have never and doubt i ever will see the modding community asking why we have ranks for non modding members, we tend to be happy with a status quo, shame that you guys can't be as gracious.

[Lusted]

this site is the Total War Centre, not the Total Mod Centre

You viewed the front page poll recently tBP?

[Perikles]

You viewed the front page poll recently tBP?

I voted 'Modifications for the Total War Games', that doesn't mean that I only come to TWC because of the mods. Infact I haven't played MTW2 in 2007...

[the Black Prince]

page won't load for me
along with about 1/3 of the site


but
Medieval Total War General Discussion
72 viewing

Mod Workshop
16 viewing

Mod Threads
28 viewing

Thema Devia
38 viewing

unsurprisingly, the clear majority of people are viewing the M2TW forums... this being afterall, a total war site.
obviously, thats just a split second view of the site, the numbers constantly change

though i'm puzzled by the 3 people viewing the cemetery... i've always wondered about those kind of people lol

[Lusted]

I voted 'Modifications for the Total War Games', that doesn't mean that I only come to TWC because of the mods. Infact I haven't played MTW2 in 2007...

But my point is why shouldn't modders be recognised for thier work? I consider Civitates and Artifex to be one rank: citizen. But with 2 different bdges which represent why the person got the rank. Modders can choose Artifex to show they are modders.

I know quite a few modders who like the distinction, as it makes them feel more valued. But very few of them visit the Curia. So the Curia might take away a rank that is helping to keep modders at the site.

page won't load for me
along with about 1/3 of the site

well here is what it says:

What is the main reason you visit TWCenter?
Information and help for the Total War games 14%
Modifications for the Total War Games 80%
Other topics than the Total War Games 6%
votes: 1304

[the Black Prince]

modders are being recognised for their work, they're being granted citizenship of the greatest TW fansite.


not to mention that artifex isn't exclusively for modders anyway
besides, if the modders cared so much, its not like they can't exercise the rights they've been granted in recognition of their achievements to vote against this bill if it went to vote.

i'm not sure what the ratio of civitate to artifex is, even assuming the vote was split along those lines, but judging by the comparative numbers online, there should be enough artifex votes to prevent this bill gaining a 2/3rd majority, if not voting it down entirely.

decisions are made by those who take part. one way to spin this would be to say that the modders clearly don't mind losing special artifex status and being a simple citizen, because if they did care, they'd have voted against it.

*shrugs*