Do the Actions of Israel in Gaza Constitute Genocide?

[mishkin]

Israeli politicians openly speak about resettling Gaza and "expelling" Palestinians. Of course you cannot expel someone who is trapped in a former concentration camp upgraded today to an extermination camp. Israel deliberately blocks aid and this is something that will cause thousands of deaths added to the thousands of deaths of Israeli bombings. Based on polls a significant portion of Israeli public supports this. I ve seen Israelis openly claiming that the only sollution(the "final" sollution) is murdering them all

I think what Israel has been doing is an atrocity. It would be great if you could add some substance to your speech beyond the allusions (for some reason) to the Holocaust. Can you for example add a link to those polls you talk about?

[Papay]

I think what Israel has been doing is an atrocity. It would be great if you could add some substance to your speech beyond the allusions (for some reason) to the Holocaust. Can you for example add a link to those polls you talk about?

You can search it on your own. Elected officials in Netanyahu government openly claim these things and their opinions reflect the public opinion of many Israelis, at least their voters. Netanyahu is more careful on saying publicly the shame things but his army is an extermination machine. To put it bluntly he wants to "clear" Northern Gaza that before the war had 1 million residents. Keep in mind that these people have no where to go(literally the biggest extermination camp in history). And of course afterwards why he shouldnt go to southern Gaza? Who will stop him?

[Ludicus]

"Who cares?", they say. Talking about genocide,"Genocide is not an event; you don’t simply wake up one morning and begin exterminating an entire people out of the blue. Genocide is a process; you have to work your way up to it...”
Cartoons that kill: The art and imagery of genocide

Why did The Washington Post publish a caricature dehumanising Palestinians amid Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza?

....Genocide is a process; you have to work your way up to it.
And like all processes, genocide has its stages – 10 stages in all if we are to refer to the list prepared by Dr Gregory Stanton, founding president and chairman of Genocide Watch, an organisation that does exactly what its name implies.

One of those stages is dehumanisation. This is an important one because committing genocide is not easy; murdering men, women and children in thousands tends to take a toll on the psyche, causing one to perhaps face all kinds of uncomfortable questions, to counter all manners of unwelcome thoughts that intrude into even the most closed of minds like single spies sneaking into a well-guarded fortress.
Those who pull the trigger on children, those who drop bombs on schools and hospitals, are after all presumably as humans as the ones they murder. How then, one wonders, do they sleep at night? How do they not see the blood on their hands every waking moment, like Lady Macbeth wandering the halls of the Dunsinane castle?
The answer is simple; you live with it by convincing yourself that those being killed are not in fact human, or at the very least not as human as you are. If you do that right and repeatedly, you will successfully convince yourself that murder is not murder; it’s pest control.

Dehumanisation has to be an ongoing process, running concurrently with the actual extermination because, you see, it is not just your own public you have to convince, it is also the governments and publics of the countries that are arming, aiding, abetting and, in some cases, cheering you on while you go about your bloody but necessary business. This gets harder to do as eviscerated babies pile up in the courtyards of besieged hospitals, as body bags choke the streets, and as the world livestreams the apocalypse on smartphones.

On November 6, as Israel continued its deliberate and direct targeting of civilians in Gaza in bakeries, hospitals and homes, while clearly announcing its intention to eradicate the Palestinians, The Washington Post published a caricature titled “Human Shields”.

The caricature depicts a man with bestial features in a dark, striped suit, which has Hamas in bold white letters emblazoned on it. His comically large nose is jutting out from beneath sunken eyes crowned by bushy eyebrows. He has several children and a typically helpless-looking abaya-clad Arab woman tied to his body. To his left is a Palestinian flag and to his right a partial image of Al-Aqsa and, of course, an oil lamp. Just in case the symbolism was not clear enough. The cartoon ticks many boxes. In his landmark study on dehumanisation, scholar Nick Haslam writes that among the categories of dehumanisation by imagery are depictions of the enemy as a barbarian, a criminal and a harasser of women and children.
The outrage was immediate and effective; having removed the cartoon, the editor of the editorial page, David Shipley, wrote in a note to readers that while he saw the drawing purely as a “caricature” of a “specific Hamas spokesman”, the outrage convinced him that he had “missed something profound, and divisive”.

It’s not David’s fault, really. Like so many people across the world he’s grown up with media and film depictions of hooknosed Arabs as either bumbling sheikhs, bumbling bandits, or else brutal (and bumbling) fanatics. This is a phenomenon author Jack Shaheen wrote about extensively in his book Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People, which was later made into a documentary.
Coming back to cartoons, Arabs are not the only ones to get this treatment – far from it. Nazi Germany was replete with images (they’re just a Google search away) which depicted Jews in much the same way: Their eyes are beady and their noses are hooked or bulbous, sometimes both. All precisely calculated to produce revulsion in the viewer, to separate the righteous “us” from the bestial “them”.
Take a cursory look at anti-Japanese propaganda cartoons in World War II, some drawn by none other than famous children’s author Dr Seuss, and you see the same techniques applied. Anti-Irish cartoons published in the UK and US in the late 19th century also depict Irish immigrants as beasts, and Black Americans – or Black people in general – still find themselves portrayed as apes or monkeys. The purpose is as simple as it is insidious and effective: to tie character to appearance, and then ensure that said appearance is hideous.

The Nazis went a step further, of course, and routinely depicted Jews as rats with (barely) human faces scurrying before the cleansing Aryan broom. Proving that the classics never really go out of style, in 2015, the Daily Mail took a page out of Goebbels’s playbook by depicting rats scurrying into Europe alongside silhouetted Muslim migrants who are turbaned and carrying AK-47s. The lone visible woman was of course duly veiled and wearing an abaya. But at least the Daily Mail didn’t portray the actual migrants as rats, thereby completely dehumanising them.

That honour falls to none other than Michael Ramirez, the two-time Pulitzer Prize winner who drew The Washington Post “Human Shields” cartoon. In 2018, the same year as the Palestinian Great March of Return – when Israeli snipers killed 266 unarmed protestors and crippled tens of thousands more – Mr Ramirez saw it fit to draw a cartoon showing a tide of rats, carrying Palestinian flags and under fire, hurtling off a cliff while blaming Israel for their fate. Clearly, this is also something “profound and divisive” that The Washington Post seems to have somehow missed.

---
The cartoon by Michael Ramirez, titled "Human Shields" on X
https://x.com/Israel/status/1722943750291222671/photo/1

[Papay]

Speaking about genocide

‘Strong likelihood’ of imminent famine in northern Gaza, food experts warn, as Israel continues siege | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

[mishkin]

You can search it on your own.

This is not how it works. You can't talk about polls or say that someone said something and respond this if you want to be taken even slightly seriously.

[sumskilz]

a former concentration camp

First of all, you’re supposed to say “open air prison”, but that talking point is outdated.

Here’s the new one:

[Ludicus]

In fact,a famous troll, Naftali Bennet, the 13th prime minister of Israel, once said "The Palestinians had the chance to create a paradise in the Gaza strip"
He also said, "When Palestinians were climbing trees, we already had a Jewish state"
--
In Amsterdam, Israeli fanatics chanted a song mocking the deaths of children in the Gaza Strip. "There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left."

According to the Israeli political commentator Ori Goldberg, “The fact that Israeli fans riot in the middle of Amsterdam, sing racist songs and climb the walls of homes to tear down Palestinian flags …is part of the Israeli condition at the moment: A complete detachment between actions and consequences”

To put it in a nutshell, some Israelis think they can do in Amsterdam and the rest of the world what they do every day in the West Bank.

Police investigating what led to violence involving Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam.

The aggression was not one-sided, the police chief said

Israeli hooligans prompted Amsterdam violence: City Councilor

Edit,
Amos Goldberg: "What is happening in Gaza is a genocide because Gaza does not exist anymore"
In April, historian Amos Goldberg, the Jonah M. Machover Chair in Holocaust Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published an article in the online magazine Local Call (Siha Mekomit, in Hebrew) accusing Israel of committing "genocide" in Gaza.
In Hebrew. Read the full article. Use the google translator
Introduction,

The fact that what is happening in Gaza does not resemble the Holocaust does not mean that it is not genocide.
Yes, it is genocide. As difficult and painful as it is to admit this, and despite all efforts to think otherwise, after six months of brutal war it is no longer possible to escape this conclusion. Jewish history will henceforth be stained with Cain's mark of the "crime of crimes", which cannot be erased from his forehead. As such, it will stand the test of time”

[mishkin]

In April, historian Amos Goldberg, the Jonah M. Machover Chair in Holocaust Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published an article in the online magazine Local Call (Siha Mekomit, in Hebrew) accusing Israel of committing "genocide" in Gaza.
In Hebrew. Read the full article. Use the google translator

Because it is as interesting as, in my opinion, accurate. and to make things easier:

Jewish history will be stained by what Israel did in Gaza. Palestinians after the bombing in Rafah, April 2024 (Photo: Abed Rahim Khativ / Flash 90)

Yes, it is genocide. Although it is so difficult and painful to admit this and despite all efforts to think otherwise, at the end of six months of a brutal war it is no longer possible to escape this conclusion. Jewish history will henceforth be stained with the sign of Cain of the "crime of crimes", which will not be able to be erased from its forehead. As such it will stand the test of time.

From a legal point of view, it is not yet known what the International Court of Justice in The Hague will decide, although in light of its temporary rulings so far and in light of the increasing number of reports by jurists, international organizations and journalist-investigators, it seems that the direction is quite clear.

From Moum Moom to Haag Schmag: Has the end of Israeli immunity come?

Already on January 26, the court ruled by an overwhelming majority (14 to 2) that Israel may be committing genocide in Gaza. On March 28, following the deliberate starvation that Israel imposes on Gaza, the court issued additional orders (and this time by a majority of 15 to 1, Judge Aharon Barak) calling on Israel not to deny the Palestinians their rights protected by the Genocide Convention.

The detailed and reasoned report of the UN Special Mission on the Human Rights Situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Francesca Albanza, reached a slightly more decisive conclusion and is another step in establishing the insight that Israel is indeed committing genocide. The detailed and updated report by Dr. Lee Mordechai, which gathers information on the level of Israeli violence in Gaza, reaches the same conclusion. Very senior academics such as Jeffrey Sachs, professor of economics at Columbia University (and a Jew with a warm attitude towards traditional Zionism), who is regularly consulted by heads of state all over the world on international issues, speaks of the Israeli genocide as a matter of course.

Excellent investigations such as those by Yuval Avraham in "Tasha Mekimim", and especially his recent investigation on the artificial intelligence systems used by the army in selecting and harming those destined for elimination, further deepen this accusation. The fact that the army allowed, for example, the killing of 300 innocent people and the destruction of an entire residential district in order to harm one Hamas general, shows that military goals are almost incidental goals for killing the civilians and that the Palestinian mind in Gaza is in fact a son of death. This is the logic of genocide.

They announced to the citizens to leave the houses, separated the men from the women, stripped them and took them away. Palestinians on a truck in Beit Lahia on December 7 (photo: use according to section 27a of the Copyright Law)

We don't have to wait for a ruling in The Hague to look at reality. Palestinians on a truck in Beit Lahia on December 7 (photo: use according to section 27a of the Copyright Law)

yes. I know, they are all anti-Semitic or self-hating Jews. Only we, the Israelis, who feed on the messages of the IDF spokesperson and are only exposed to the images that the Israeli media filters for us, see the reality present. As if endless literature has not been written about the social and cultural denial mechanisms of societies that commit serious war crimes. Israel is really a paradigmatic case of such societies. , a case that will be studied in every university seminar in the world dealing with the subject.

It will be a few years before the court in The Hague gives its verdict, but we should not look at the catastrophic reality only through legal glasses. What is happening in Gaza is genocide because the level and pace of the indiscriminate killing, the destruction, the mass deportations, the displacement, the starvation, the executions, the elimination of cultural and religious institutions, the crushing of the elites (including the killing of journalists), and the sweeping dehumanization of the Palestinians - create an overall picture of genocide, of intentional and conscious crushing of the Palestinian existence in Gaza.

--------------------------

To recap, arguments in this discussion defending that one cannot speak of genocide:
- The legal term is very specific and the definition of genocide is controversial.
- Israel could have annihilated all Palestinians and has not done so.

[sumskilz]

To put it in a nutshell, some Israelis think they can do in Amsterdam and the rest of the world what they do every day in the West Bank.

Why the desperate effort to justify mob violence against Jews? Nobody even brought up the incident, it’s only tangentially related to the thread, yet you’ve gone on at length over two posts about it.

Apparently, some Israelis behaved badly, which should be condemned. Although, they did nothing that isn’t standard fair at a typical pro-Palestinian demonstration, demonstrations which regularly involve vandalism and hostile, even genocidal, chants, at which Arabs and other Muslims tend to be at the forefront. The implication of your posts is that the words and minor criminal acts of some people associated with an ethnic, national, or religious identity justify violence against anyone who shares that identity. If that rationale were to be taken to its logical end, then one would conclude that it’s reasonable to perpetrate violence against random Arabs and Muslims because of the behavior regularly taking place at pro-Palestinian demonstrations around the world, which would obviously be unacceptable.

Although, the narrative that the violence was an impromptu emotional response to some obnoxious behavior falls apart in light of the evidence that it was a pre-planned “Jew hunt”:

Videos posted on social media showed fans of the two teams being punched, kicked and humiliated as pro-Palestinian marchers shouted anti-Semitic slurs at them.

Now it has emerged that the attacks on the Jewish football fans were planned in advance and co-ordinated using WhatsApp and Telegram.

The Telegraph has seen messages from a group chat called Buurthuis, a Dutch word for a type of community centre, which were posted on Wednesday, the day before the match.

One message says: “Tomorrow after the game, at night, part 2 of the Jew Hunt.

“Tomorrow we work them.”

Another member of the group says: “Who can sort fireworks?” adding, “We need a lot of fireworks”. Participants refer to “cancer dogs”, a particularly vile insult in the Netherlands. …

One piece of footage posted online shows a man who had jumped into a canal in a desperate attempt to escape his attackers.

As he thrashes around in the water, a pursuer shouts: “Say Free Palestine, and we’ll let you go,” and spits out a vile Dutch phrase that means “Cancer Jew”.

The person who posted the video on X commented: “This coward jumped into the canal, afraid of getting beaten.” It was accompanied by “crying with laughter” emojis.

Another video shows a man who appears unconscious on the street being repeatedly kicked as he lies in the fetal position.

A third film shows a young Israeli football fan cornered in a narrow alley where he ends up crouching on the floor. He begs for mercy but his assailants knock him out with a punch to the head. …

One shaken Israeli woman who spoke to Dutch media NOS from Amsterdam’s Schipol airport: “It seems like it was organised. There were a lot of people. They saw everyone in yellow.

“They jumped on us. They stabbed people. They beat them. They did horrible things. We hid in the hotel until it was safe outside.”

Mossad also reportedly warned Dutch authorities in advance:

A senior Israeli security official said Friday that Israeli security services had identified a “flare-up” on Dutch social media ahead of the game with calls by pro-Palestinian groups to hold a violent protest near the stadium.

“Due to this, the Mossad passed a warning to security services in the Netherlands with a request to immediately and significantly reinforce the security for Israelis in the area of the stadium and across the city, with an emphasis placed on hotels where the fans were known to be staying,” the official said.

A British man was beaten that night for helping a Jew:

A 33-year-old Londoner has shared the harrowing details of how he was attacked and hospitalised after attempting to stop a gang assault on an Israeli man in Amsterdam on Thursday evening. …

The father-of-two from Hendon recounted the terrifying events in an interview with the Jewish News. "We left the game early to meet a friend, and as we walked towards the bar area, chaos broke out—mopeds appeared from alleyways, and a crowd surrounded an Israeli man," he said. "The man was on the ground, his head pinned between a curb and a metal gate, being viciously kicked."

Aaron and his friend Jacob, a father-of-three from Golders Green, intervened in an attempt to help the victim, pushing the attackers away.

However, their efforts were met with further violence. "We thought it was over," Aaron recalled, "but moments later, the gang returned and confronted us, asking, ‘Are you Yehudi? Are you Jewish?’”

Jacob, who was also caught up in the attack, recalled the thugs demanding to see their passports. Despite their denials of being Israeli, the gang continued to harass them and the situation quickly escalated. "I told him to leave him alone and the next thing I know, he punched me in the face," Aaron said. "It was so unexpected. My glasses were broken, my nose split. Blood everywhere."

The violence did not end there. After Aaron was punched, about 20 more attackers emerged from hiding and began to assault him. "I stood my ground. I said, ‘What you’re doing is why you’re not getting any support,’" he said. One member of the gang, upon realising that Aaron was British, instructed the others to leave him alone. However, another responded, "Yes, but he helped a Jew."

"It was because I helped a Jew," Aaron explained. "That’s why they were angry."

This all occurred against a backdrop of increased antisemitic attacks in the Netherlands and police reluctance to protect Jews:

A month before the violent riots targeting Maccabi Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam, Dutch media exposed a troubling trend of local police officers refusing to safeguard Jewish and Israeli sites across the country.

The revelation first emerged in NIW (Nieuw Israelietisch Weekblad), a prominent Jewish newspaper, which reported that a growing number of officers were claiming that protecting Jewish and Israeli sites presented them with a "moral dilemma" and "conscientious concerns."

Two veteran officers voiced their alarm about the police command's increasing tolerance of such refusals. "We have colleagues who are now declining to protect facilities or events linked to the community. They cite 'moral dilemmas,' and I'm witnessing a growing tendency to accommodate these objections. This truly marks the beginning of the end for us as a police force," Michael Theeboom, a local officer, told NIW. …

The controversy gained national attention when De Telegraaf, a leading Dutch newspaper, picked up the story, with additional police sources expressing deep concern about growing extremism within the Dutch police force and widening divisions within the organization entrusted with public safety.

A report released six months ago by CIDI, the Netherlands' leading antisemitism monitoring organization, revealed that antisemitic incidents surged by 250% over the previous year, with 379 documented cases in 2023, up from 155 in 2022.

While authorities received more than 1,500 reports of antisemitic incidents, only 379 cases met the criteria for definitive classification as antisemitism. The 2023 figures represent the highest number of incidents recorded in the four decades since the organization began publishing its annual report.

Keep in mind that’s only the 2023 figure, and if the increase in antisemitic attacks started after October 7th as is likely, they would have all been concentrated in the last quarter of the year, meaning the figures for 2024 could be drastically higher.

[Papay]

Why the desperate effort to justify mob violence against Jews? Nobody even brought up the incident, it’s only tangentially related to the thread, yet you’ve gone on at length over two posts about it.

Apparently, some Israelis behaved badly, which should be condemned. Although, they did nothing that isn’t standard fair at a typical pro-Palestinian demonstration, demonstrations which regularly involve vandalism and hostile, even genocidal, chants, at which Arabs and other Muslims tend to be at the forefront. The implication of your posts is that the words and minor criminal acts of some people associated with an ethnic, national, or religious identity justify violence against anyone who shares that identity. If that rationale were to be taken to its logical end, then one would conclude that it’s reasonable to perpetrate violence against random Arabs and Muslims because of the behavior regularly taking place at pro-Palestinian demonstrations around the world, which would obviously be unacceptable.

Makes you wonder why there is a spike in antisemitism. I am quite sure that it has nothing to do with the fact that Israeli government murders everyday women and children. Israel has banned western journalists from entering Gaza but, unfortunatelly for them, we live in an era of mobile phones. So most of these massacres are documented. Hint:You wont see these videos on Israeli television

[Papay]

Israel's Army Investigates if It Breached International Law by Killing Hundreds of Gazans - Israel News - Haaretz.com


Israel army will "investigate" itself whether it breached the international law by massacring more than 1000 of civilians in Northern Gaza between late October and early November(a tiny fraction of the war crimes committed for a year now in Gaza). We know what the conclusion is going to be:Either the dead women and children were Hamas terrorists or a Hamas terrorist was close.

[Ludicus]

For the fourth time, Joe Biden's administration has vetoed a UNSC resolution on the ceasefire in Gaza. The US voted against the measure on Wednesday morning, while the other 14 members of the Council voted in favour. Every time they say they want a ceasefire in Gaza, they're lying.

[PointOfViewGun]

For the fourth time, Joe Biden's administration has vetoed a UNSC resolution on the ceasefire in Gaza. The US voted against the measure on Wednesday morning, while the other 14 members of the Council voted in favour. Every time they say they want a ceasefire in Gaza, they're lying.

You literally just argued that he should keep himself to day to day management of USA. Did you not?

[Ludicus]

As a member of the Security Council, the US is legally bound to vote on resolutions tabled there. However, there is no legal obligation for Biden to launch ATACMS on Russian territory.
---
The ICC's milestone decision

I just flew in from Israel late last night. The claim now is that we are the victims of this kind of international Palestinian mobilisation against us. And [the ICC warrants] is another part of this international mobilisation against us. So even as Israel’s carrying out genocidal violence in Gaza, the self perception is still a victimhood.

ICC issues arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu...

...the EU is a strong supporter of the ICC, so there will be pressure in governments of all EU states to act against Netanyahu.
...And the UK has now joined most EU states in supporting Netanyahu’s arrest.
The US is now very much isolated among western countries in its lack of support for international law

European nations back ICC after it orders arrest of ...

...we are obliged to cooperate with the ICC, and we will also do that,” Dutch Foreign Minister Caspar Veldkamp said his government would scrap all "non-essential contacts" with the Israeli prime minister.
A French Foreign Ministry spokesperson informed AFP that Paris would respond in line with the court’s founding statutes.
The Swiss Federal Office of Justice said it was required to cooperate with the court under the Rome Statute and would therefore have to arrest Netanyahu or Gallant if they entered the country, Reuters reported
Petra De Sutter, Belgium’s deputy prime minister, called on other European nations to “impose economic sanctions, suspend the [E.U.] Association Agreement with Israel and uphold these arrest warrants.
The 123 countries that are signatories to the Rome Statute are obligated to act on any arrest warrant it issues, raising the possibility that Netanyahu and Gallant could be arrested while visiting these places.

ICC's decision 'slap in the face' for German government
Israel slams Germany for saying it would arrest...

[PointOfViewGun]

As a member of the Security Council, the US is legally bound to vote on resolutions tabled there. However, there is no legal obligation for Biden to launch ATACMS on Russian territory.

Is USA legally bound to vote in favour of a resolution? No. Why its none of Biden's business to make a presidential decision on one issue but not on an other?

[NorseThing]

The US is fatally biased against Israel with soo many of their employees in the Mideast employed by people resident of Gaza.

https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/c2vdnvdg6xxt

Disingenuous claims of balance by issuing a warrant for a dead Hamas operative to 'balance' the warrants against living representatives of the Israeli war effort.

And then USA politicians make easy domestic political points by stating an outrage over the warrants.

In the end we are no closer to ending the war. All that the UN and the USA has accomplished is to stir the pot and keeping the heat on boil.

[Ludicus]

Who said that "the USA legally bound to vote in favour of a resolution?" if a permanent member does not fully agree with a proposed resolution but does not wish to cast a veto, it may choose to abstain. Don't mix apples and oranges.


When Did Liberals Become So Comfortable With War? New York Times.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[chriscase]

Please remember the topic of this thread. Discussion of the war in Ukraine already has a thread.

[Ludicus]

Why its none of Biden's business to make a presidential decision on one issue but not on an other?

In case you hadn't noticed, I answered this question in my previous post, but it was removed because it was considered offtopic. Which means that the question you asked made no sense.

[PointOfViewGun]

Who said that "the USA legally bound to vote in favour of a resolution?" if a permanent member does not fully agree with a proposed resolution but does not wish to cast a veto, it may choose to abstain. Don't mix apples and oranges.

In case you hadn't noticed, I answered this question in my previous post, but it was removed because it was considered offtopic. Which means that the question you asked made no sense.

No, it doesn't really mean that. It doesn't work that way. What didn't make sense was your "legally bounding" claim that was simply false and senseless. You're clearly utilizing different standards for Biden administration's decisions.