Real side of rape culture in Europe

[PointOfViewGun]

I brought up additional cases of sexual abuse/rape in europe/west, which you repeteadly claim that such is deflecting from OP topic. In what way does that go against your OP? What is my "agenda", are you sure you aren't projecting?

You didn't introduce Epstein as an other case of rape. You jumped in with the false accusation that people here defended Epstein. You tried to build your position on that falsehood to shift the focus away from mass prevalence of rape from every day citizens in Europe. Hence the question: What problem you have with massive exposure of regular French men in of committing rape, thanks to a victim that chose to forfeit her right to anonymity, that you have to have us talk about Epstein using a false premise that you completely made up?

I’m just going by your own references and statements, so any inconsistencies between the two are your own. There is no part of the data that conflicts with what I’ve said. If you want to consider people born in Sweden to as many as one Swedish parent migrants, that’s fine. Using that criteria means the 2023 population of migrants from western countries is 10%, not 4%. The criteria don’t change anything, because it would still indicate Middle Eastern migrants commit a disproportionate amount of rape (at least double) relative to native Swedes, westerners or Swedes and westerners combined. Thus you’ve cited statistics undermining the basis for this thread. If you don’t think those are accurate, I don’t know why you referenced them.

You didn't just go by my own references or statements though. You specifically utilized different criteria for different groups to come up with numbers you favoured more. Also, when you compare people from or with parent(s) from MENA and Western countries, Western countries are overrepresented slightly more than MENA, contrary to what you claim there. Using consistent criteria doesn't magically jump the number of Western migrants in Sweden from 4% to 10% either. I already indicated why these numbers are not ultimately accurate. It's a very well-known phenomenon when it comes to crime statistics like rape. Yet, you seem to be deliberately trying to avoid those simple points like its the plague even though I directly asked you about it. You do realize by trying to dance around that you're making it way too obvious, do you not? Why do you do that?

[Legio_Italica]

You didn't just go by my own references or statements though. You specifically utilized different criteria for different groups to come up with numbers you favoured more. Also, when you compare people from or with parent(s) from MENA and Western countries, Western countries are overrepresented slightly more than MENA, contrary to what you claim there. Using consistent criteria doesn't magically jump the number of Western migrants in Sweden from 4% to 10% either. I already indicated why these numbers are not ultimately accurate. It's a very well-known phenomenon when it comes to crime statistics like rape. Yet, you seem to be deliberately trying to avoid those simple points like its the plague even though I directly asked you about it. You do realize by trying to dance around that you're making it way too obvious, do you not? Why do you do that?

You shouldn’t cite statistics you think are inaccurate, and if that’s the case, we can dismiss the arguments you’ve based on them and there would be nothing to discuss. In any case, I’m not the one misrepresenting data here. Using the criteria from your last post, migrants from western countries are 10% of the Swedish population, so it makes sense they commit 10% of rapes. I don’t know where you got 4% from, but I took you at your word and noted 4% of foreign born rapists are from western countries, which tracks. According to the 2023 statistics you referenced, there are like 400,000 Finns alone if we include those born in Sweden (4%), so either you were wrong or you were mixing up criteria when you said that.

If MENA are 7.5%, it doesn’t make sense that they commit 18% of rapes, unless we acknowledge they commit a disproportionate amount. It’s silly to talk about the “real side of European rape culture” or accuse others of deflection when your own references refute the notion there is an overemphasis on rape by Middle Eastern migrants or that rapes by Frenchmen are being ignored.

[PointOfViewGun]

You shouldn’t cite statistics you think are inaccurate, and if that’s the case, we can dismiss the arguments you’ve based on them and there would be nothing to discuss. In any case, I’m not the one misrepresenting data here. Using the criteria from your last post, migrants from western countries are 10% of the Swedish population, so it makes sense they commit 10% of rapes. I don’t know where you got 4% from, but I took you at your word and noted 4% of foreign born rapists are from western countries, which tracks. According to the 2023 statistics you referenced, there are like 400,000 Finns alone if we include those born in Sweden (4%), so either you were wrong or you were mixing up criteria when you said that.
If MENA are 7.5%, it doesn’t make sense that they commit 18% of rapes, unless we acknowledge they commit a disproportionate amount. It’s silly to talk about the “real side of European rape culture” or accuse others of deflection when your own references refute the notion there is an overemphasis on rape by Middle Eastern migrants or that rapes by Frenchmen are being ignored.

I can very much use statistics that lack a lot and argue what they indicate as a starting point. Your entire position is built on ignoring that.. I never said that 4% of foreign born rapists are from Western countries. The data table, which you yourself linked to puts that percentage at 7.3%. What I pointed out was that rapists either born in or with a parent from Western countries represent about 10% of the convicted rapists which you could easily calculate from the same table you linked to. You seem to be deliberately trying to obfuscate what's being pointed out to avoid acknowledging that rape often goes unreported, that victims are much more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner and that even the official conviction numbers at face value do not create an overrepresentation enough to dismiss the concern for unreported cases. You need these incomplete numbers to keep your narrative alive. That you chose for your first response to an unimaginable case with wide reaching implications to be vilification of others was the worst angle you could choose to approach, yet, alas... You are practically trying to whitewash the rapists around you.

[Legio_Italica]

I can very much use statistics that lack a lot and argue what they indicate as a starting point. Your entire position is built on ignoring that..

I haven’t ignored anything. I have never seen any statistics that say rape victims are much more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner. You haven’t presented any either, let alone proof this alleged “phenomenon” explains the 2:1 variance.

I never said that 4% of foreign born rapists are from Western countries. The data table, which you yourself linked to puts that percentage at 7.3%.

The study you cited showed foreign born westerners are 4% of the sample of rapists, consistent with your assertion 4% of migrants are western. Pardon the typo.

What I pointed out was that rapists either born in or with a parent from Western countries represent about 10% of the convicted rapists which you could easily calculate from the same table you linked to.

10% of people in Sweden are from western countries according to the same criteria, so that tracks.

You seem to be deliberately trying to obfuscate what's being pointed out to avoid acknowledging that rape often goes unreported, that victims are much more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner and that even the official conviction numbers at face value do not create an overrepresentation enough to dismiss the concern for unreported cases. You need these incomplete numbers to keep your narrative alive. That you chose for your first response to an unimaginable case with wide reaching implications to be vilification of others was the worst angle you could choose to approach, yet, alas... You are practically trying to whitewash the rapists around you.

I’m using the numbers you cited. If they’re incomplete, you should find ones that support your argument instead of rehashing the ones that refute it over and over.

[PointOfViewGun]

I haven’t ignored anything. I have never seen any statistics that say rape victims are much more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner. You haven’t presented any either, let alone proof this alleged “phenomenon” explains the 2:1 variance.
The study you cited showed foreign born westerners are 4% of the sample of rapists, consistent with your assertion 4% of migrants are western. Pardon the typo.
10% of people in Sweden are from western countries according to the same criteria, so that tracks.
I’m using the numbers you cited. If they’re incomplete, you should find ones that support your argument instead of rehashing the ones that refute it over and over.

Why you choose to continue to make false assertions and misrepresentations about the presented data and arguments that have already been shown to be false is beyond me. Perhaps its all you have left. Why you choose that path to whitewash some rapists over others do not puzzle me. Given that you you chose to question only the "victims report rapists more if they're foreigners" bit but not the "most rapes go unreported" bit, it seems like you too acknowledge that rape statistics do not exactly paint an accurate picture of rape crimes despite your earlier contradictory take on the matter. OK. I'm glad we cleared that.

Let's put things in perspective first (from UK):
The end-to-end rape review report on findings and actions

There are an estimated 128,000 victims of rape a year.4 Less than 20% of victims of rape report to the police.5 Even worse, only 1.6% of rapes that are reported result in someone being charged.6 That means that considerably fewer than one in every 100 rapes actually leads to justice for its victim.

From the get go the data at hand only shows information on something like 1% of the actual rape cases. This is not a random data set. This alone is enough to disregard them in totality. Yet:

Foreigners figure high in rape statistics

Threshold lower for women to report rapes by non-Finns

Of the rape cases reported to the Finnish police, in some 8-10% of cases the assailant is shown to be a foreigner. When the victims file their accusations, as many as 17% of the women involved believed the rapist to be of foreign extraction.

The helpline of a rape victim crisis centre known as Tukinainen has recorded that around 6% of callers say that they were sexually assaulted by a foreigner. Considerably more of those women attacked by foreigners have come forward and filed charges than those who were victims of the unwelcome attentions of Finnish men.

"It may be that a Finnish woman regards it as more of a crime when the perpetrator is foreign. If the rapist is a Finn, the woman might perhaps think more about her own role in what has happened", ponders Chief Inspector Kalle Kekomäki.

The helpline receives calls about c. 700 new cases each year. When the person responsible has been a foreigner, charges have been brought by the victim in 46% of cases. Where the assailant is a Finn, only 24% of victims have reported the incident to the police.

Then, of course, we know that most assailants are people the victims know:
Sex attack victims usually know attacker, says new study

More than 90% of rape and sexual assault victims know their attacker, a new study of almost 1,000 victims says.
Researchers from Glasgow University said it was a popular misconception that most attackers were strangers.
The study looked at the 991 women in Scotland who went through an advocacy programme, which ran for 18 months.
It found that despite many reforms to rape laws, women still suffered as a result of delays and the impersonal nature of the justice system.
The study also found:
Just 9% of perpetrators were strangers to the victim
23% of women were assaulted by a partner or ex-partner
24% were assaulted a family member
44% were assaulted by "another known person"
32% were reported to the police more than two years after the incident
More than 20% of the women took more than 10 years to report their ordeal to the police
22% had not reported their assaults to the police at all.

You can continue to try to chase populism and want to talk about side of the tip of the iceberg to whitewash the rapists around you all you want. You can continue to base almost every argument you make either on ignoring what's pointed out to you or on obfuscation of arguments you have no sensible counter against. That approach merely contributes to the unimaginable acts of violence women like Gisele Pelicot from France endured. I wonder how many of those people who knew what was being done to Pelicot stayed silent while parroting your arguments.

[mishkin]

Hello TWC user. Can you please reply with a simple "I" if you think that before the arrival of immigrants in the last thirty years there was no problem of sexual violence* against women in Europe.

*the definition just in case

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sexual violence is any harmful or unwanted sexual act—or attempt to obtain a sexual act through violence or coercion—or an act directed against a person's sexuality without their consent, by any individual regardless of their relationship to the victim. This includes forced engagement in sexual acts, attempted or completed, and may be physical, psychological, or verbal. It occurs in times of peace and armed conflict situations, is widespread, and is considered to be one of the most traumatic, pervasive, and most common human rights violations.[5][6]

[PointOfViewGun]

We even had someone here mocking and questioning the authenticity of Pelicot's case just to hush it away. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't see someone cheer the many cases of rape I have referenced here.

A similar attitude was present at the court case of Pelicot:

‘Not all men, but a lot of them’: will Gisèle Pelicot rape trial finally change France’s attitude to sexual abuse?

As the horror of how Dominique Pelicot drugged his wife, Gisèle, and allowed at least 83 men to rape her continued to unfold in a French courtroom last week, it was hard to see how the case “could have been worse” as one local official suggested.

For French feminists and women’s activists, however, Bonnet’s ill-judged comments encapsulated how France has failed to respond to the #MeToo movement and is “abysmally” lagging behind in addressing sexual abuse socially and legally.

In May, in the face of growing frustration at a lack of change after the number of rape cases dismissed without any action rose to 94%, a petition signed by more than 140 public *figures, published in Le Monde, called for a new wide-ranging law against sexual and sexist violence.

Mailfert added: “We should not forget that it was only a matter of luck that Dominique Pelicot was stopped. It was lucky that the security guard that caught him … detained him, called the police and did not let him off with a warning.

Mailfert said any new law should also address how victims are treated in court. Last week, Gisèle Pelicot, 72, was forced to remind the court that she was not on trial after facing what she called “humiliating questions” from the bench and defence lawyers about her clothes, her drinking and whether she had consented to sex with the 50 men in the dock along with her *husband accused of rape.

In the opening post, I also talked about 80 suspects arrested for child sex abuse which everyone ignored. The power of Gisele Pelicot waiving her rights to anonymity is apparent from media coverage of the investigation and subsequent trial. All we have on this are some articles from December 2023. Despite including dozens of suspects, local councillor, school teachers, sport coaches, disabled children center monitor (who was convicted of rape before but he was allowed to change his identity which in turn allowed him to contact the same children again somehow), about a 100 thousand videos and photos, there is little media attention.

France detains dozens of suspects in largest child sex crime crackdown

Around 80 men, including a local councillor and two schoolteachers, were detained this week in France's most far-reaching swoop on suspected child sex abusers, police sources said.

The men arrested, whose ages range from around 30 to over 60, come from a wide range of backgrounds, from an elected official to a person on the dole.

That enabled them to detain, among others, two teachers, several sports coaches and a monitor in a centre for disabled children.

One of the teachers possessed "photos and videos stolen from his pupils" and is suspected of sexually assaulting at least one of them, Bevan said.
Around a dozen others are suspected of raping or sexually abusing minors.

The monitor in the centre for the disabled had been convicted of rape "several decades ago" but had been permitted to change his identity, which enabled him to have contact with children again, Bevan said.

"Vulnerable children have been raped and many have suffered acts of torture and barbarity."Police searches uncovered "more than 100,000" videos and photos on computers or hard drives.
Some were "extremely violent" and included "sexual acts on babies or children being sexually abused by animals", Bevan said.

All the suspects admitted the facts presented to them while in police custody, although some tried to downplay them or deny responsibility.
Some were in the process of destroying their computers with hammers when police arrived, Bevan said.

I mentioned Catholic men of religion earlier; a French Catholic priest admitting to raping 4 different boys received only 17 years of jail.

French former Catholic priest convicted of raping and sexually abusing four boys

Olivier de Scitivaux de Greische, 64, has been handed a 17-year sentence after admitting to raping and sexually assaulting four young boys during more than a decade in the 1990s and 2000s.

A criminal court on Saturday found de Scitivaux de Greische, a former senior priest in the diocese of Orléans southwest of Paris, “guilty of all the acts of rape and aggravated sexual assault” he was accused of.

In a hearing behind closed doors on Friday, the former priest – who was returned to lay status at his own request – acknowledged everything “without reservation”.

For the first time, the accused admitted to raping and sexually assaulting two other victims as early as 1982, but he cannot be prosecuted for those acts since they were past the statute of limitations.

Damien Brossier, de Scitivaux de Greische’s lawyer, has appealed to the court for leniency, stressing that his client was no longer a danger.

Olivier de Scitivaux de Greische was ordained a priest in 1989 when he was 29.
He soon became close to the parents of his victims – three brothers – regularly inviting himself to their home and staying overnight in the bedroom of the eldest child, who was raped and assaulted from the age of 9.

“When one wasn't available, there was the second or third”, de Scitivaux de Greische said, in reference to the three brothers, who are now in their 40s.

Despite youth workers and families first alerting the diocese to the abuse in the 1980s, and further warnings by families and youth workers within the chaplaincy in 1998, the sexual assaults continued through to the early 2000s.

In 2021, a report on sexual abuse within the French Catholic Church found that 216,000 minors were victims of abuse from 1950 to 2020. An independent commission said it was a massive phenomenon covered up for decades by a "veil of silence".

The only acceptable reaction to any of the cases I've quoted in these pages is disgust. What people type here is the ultimate litmus test.

[Legio_Italica]

Why you choose to continue to make false assertions and misrepresentations about the presented data and arguments that have already been shown to be false is beyond me. Perhaps its all you have left. Why you choose that path to whitewash some rapists over others do not puzzle me. Given that you you chose to question only the "victims report rapists more if they're foreigners" bit but not the "most rapes go unreported" bit, it seems like you too acknowledge that rape statistics do not exactly paint an accurate picture of rape crimes despite your earlier contradictory take on the matter. OK. I'm glad we cleared that.

I can only deduce from yet another non-response that you’ve conceded Middle Eastern migrants commit disproportionate amount of rape in contrast to native Europeans according to the statistics you’ve cited, and thus your claim that migrant sex crimes are overemphasized while those of Europeans are ignored was baseless.

From the get go the data at hand only shows information on something like 1% of the actual rape cases. This is not a random data set. This alone is enough to disregard them in totality.

If you think the data is garbage, we can disregard your arguments based on it.

Foreigners figure high in rape statistics

This is a newspaper article from 2000. Is that really all you were referring to when you’ve insisted rape victims are much more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner? For example, she says foreigners are 8-10% of rapists. Today, it’s 27%, and foreign born sex criminals outnumber natives 3:1. 22% of perpetrators are MENA, double the proportion of the entire foreign population of Finland (10-11% of the total). Needless to say, any relevance her observations may or may not have had decades ago are thoroughly outdated.

https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/163523

You can continue to try to chase populism and want to talk about side of the tip of the iceberg to whitewash the rapists around you all you want. You can continue to base almost every argument you make either on ignoring what's pointed out to you or on obfuscation of arguments you have no sensible counter against. That approach merely contributes to the unimaginable acts of violence women like Gisele Pelicot from France endured. I wonder how many of those people who knew what was being done to Pelicot stayed silent while parroting your arguments.

You based your OP on a comparison to MENA migrant rape, and have merely exploited Ms. Pelicot’s personal tragedy as a shameless rhetorical crutch. Your accusations are nothing more than projection and it’s hardly my fault your narrative has been dismantled by your own references. I guess that’s why you’re now pivoting to the “priests rape kids” cliche in another juvenile attempt to whitewash basic statistics.

[mishkin]

While people love to focus on rape cases by immigrants, the real face of rape culture exists often much closer to people. Often it is a family member, spouse or partner. Many times they go unreported. In this case the guy was too perverted to keep it hidden. Yet, the scale and extent of this particular case is blood boiling. Kudos to this woman for choosing to waive her right to be anonymous.

And here we are, writing hundreds of words about immigrants and completely ignoring the case, refusing to condemn and give due importance to abuses perpetrated by non-immigrants

[PointOfViewGun]

I can only deduce from yet another non-response that you’ve conceded Middle Eastern migrants commit disproportionate amount of rape in contrast to native Europeans according to the statistics you’ve cited, and thus your claim that migrant sex crimes are overemphasized while those of Europeans are ignored was baseless.
If you think the data is garbage, we can disregard your arguments based on it.
This is a newspaper article from 2000. Is that really all you were referring to when you’ve insisted rape victims are much more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner? For example, she says foreigners are 8-10% of rapists. Today, it’s 27%, and foreign born sex criminals outnumber natives 3:1. 22% of perpetrators are MENA, double the proportion of the entire foreign population of Finland (10-11% of the total). Needless to say, any relevance her observations may or may not have had decades ago are thoroughly outdated.
https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/163523
You based your OP on a comparison to MENA migrant rape, and have merely exploited Ms. Pelicot’s personal tragedy as a shameless rhetorical crutch. Your accusations are nothing more than projection and it’s hardly my fault your narrative has been dismantled by your own references. I guess that’s why you’re now pivoting to the “priests rape kids” cliche in another juvenile attempt to whitewash basic statistics.

Earlier you indirectly admitted that convicted rapists only make up a pretty much negligible proportion of rape crimes. Here now you continue to make assertions that require the opposite to be true. Why do you keep on flipping on that basic point?

[Paul Atreides]

So, if you read the statistics from pretty much every EU country conserning rape, importing rapists from MENA countries is a bad idea? It is easy to tell in this "discussion", who doesn't have daughters. Or children.

[mishkin]

So, if you read the statistics from pretty much every EU country conserning rape, importing rapists from MENA countries is a bad idea? It is easy to tell in this "discussion", who doesn't have daughters. Or children.

It is also very obvious to point out who only cares about a rape if it is committed by a foreigner.

Banning all immigrants because some of them are rapists makes no sense, but to go with the flow, okay, let's ban only adult males and make it easier for women and children to enter. Deal?

[PointOfViewGun]

So, if you read the statistics from pretty much every EU country conserning rape, importing rapists from MENA countries is a bad idea? It is easy to tell in this "discussion", who doesn't have daughters. Or children.

If you actually check statistics from those countries you'd realize how false your premise is.

[Paul Atreides]

If you actually check statistics from those countries you'd realize how false your premise is.

For some strange reason, all of the Nordic countries are rather reluctant to receive "refugees" from MENA countries as of now. I wonder why that is?

Yet we are very welcoming to the refugees from Ukraine. I bet it is incomprehensible to you.

[PointOfViewGun]

For some strange reason, all of the Nordic countries are rather reluctant to receive "refugees" from MENA countries as of now. I wonder why that is?
Yet we are very welcoming to the refugees from Ukraine. I bet it is incomprehensible to you.

Is that really so? Ukrainians have been a big source of refugees in the past 10 years. Yet, very few of them moved to Nordic countries. Clearly, the train of thought you had there is of a toy train.

Back to reality:

The Horror of the Pelicot Trial Goes Far Beyond This Case

If we take these men at their word—and there are certainly reasons not to—they genuinely believed that if a husband allows someone to have sex with his wife, then his wife is available for sex. Given that Dominique Pelicot fooled many people, including his relatives, who have said they had always thought theirs was a happy family, it’s plausible that the men thought they were dealing with a normal spouse who had an unusual kink. But, and here’s the rub, that means they also thought that husbands can grant access to their wives’ bodies. In France. In the 21st century.

So sturdy is the reputation of husbands as protectors of wives and families that these men can claim they were fooled into raping Gisèle Pelicot, who has been at court observing their testimony during much of the proceedings and has testified. Many of the accused brought wives, girlfriends, sisters, and mothers to the court to attest to their character, to explain that these men were not real rapists, though their support is somewhat undercut by the fact that the men came in contact with Dominique via an online forum called “à son insu,” which means “without her knowledge.” Gisèle Pelicot, who has since divorced Dominique, addressed those women during her testimony on Oct. 23. She noted that she didn’t used to think her husband was a rapist either. “A rapist is not just someone you meet in a dark car park late at night,” she said. “He can also be found in the family, among friends.”

At least one of the defendants has argued that he was told Gisèle was pretending to be asleep because she was shy. Some claimed they had been manipulated by Dominique once they got to the home or suspected he had drugged them. Two said they were gay and had been hoping to sleep with Dominique. And a depressingly large number of them said they were sexually abused as minors. Nevertheless, “her husband said I could” has been a common theme in their testimonies, probably because their lawyers see it as the strongest legal defense they have. It is perhaps this, even as much as the psychopathic behavior of Dominique Pelicot, that is sending a chill down many women’s spines. This recognition of how vulnerable women are not just to husbands who have ill-intent, but to a community that holds husbands in such an exalted position that it does not question fundamentally sketchy situations if the man of the house is present.