Real side of rape culture in Europe

[PointOfViewGun]

So are you also avoiding talking about Epstein despite having such strong opinions about the issue?

What problem you have with massive exposure of regular French men in of committing rape, thanks to a victim that chose to forfeit her right to anonymity, that you have to have us talk about Epstein?


‘I am part of this nightmare’: man admits guilt in Gisèle Pelicot rape trial

Lionel R, a 44-year-old supermarket worker and father of three, was among dozens of men accused of participating in the mass rape of Pelicot over a decade in a trial that has shocked France.

Dominique Pelicot has admitted the charges, telling the court he was “a rapist”. He has said the men he recruited online all knew they were coming to rape his unconscious, drugged wife.

A total of 50 men aged between 26 and 74 are accused of raping Gisèle Pelicot in her bedroom in southern France between 2011 and 2020 after being invited by her husband. The accused include a fire officer, prison warden, a nurse and a journalist.

Pelicot trial: French court hears how mass rape went undetected for years

The chilling case has also prompted soul-searching among health workers in France, highlighting doctors’ struggle to detect the signs of drug-facilitated abuse – known in France as “chemical submission”.

In 2022, police registered more than 2,000 complaints involving allegations of “chemical submission”, an increase of 69% on the previous year. However, it is estimated that only 10% of victims lodge a complaint.

[mishkin]

I was going to say something similar but I couldn't find the words. For all those here who seem to be content with the current situation.

[Legio_Italica]

If you want to talk about your conspiracy theory, start a discussion about it. If you want to talk about elites abusing their position (Weinstein, Al Fayed), start a discussion about it. This is a discussion about how "normalized" rape is in the general European population, and your accusations of anyone who doesn't fit into the specific discussion that you want as a defender of Epstein are ridiculous, bordering on defamation.

It’s kinda ridiculous to insist European/western rape culture is a thing while dismissing one of the only modern examples of anything of the sort as a conspiracy theory. On the other hand, I would expect nothing less from the faction that considers anyone who doesn’t want to import foreign rape cultures to be an enemy of the state.

[mishkin]

You haven't been paying attention, we don't need to import anything, we Europeans have been happily raping for centuries. In this thread we've also tried to talk about the elites abusing their power, but it seems one faction (hi there) is stuck on a name for some reason*

*the relationship between Epstein and "left-wing" elites. Seriously, just come clean with your theory of the perverted left controlling the institutions (or something like that) and stop the insinuations. If you're not going to stop, at least be clear.

[Legio_Italica]

Doesn’t seem like you’re trying to talk about it when you just told someone trying to talk about it that it’s nothing more than a conspiracy theory and they should start a different thread, because this thread is only about some group of guys who committed rape and are being universally condemned for it on the way to jail - an episode that exemplifies a culture that treats rape and rapists with contempt, lol. If Europeans don’t need to import foreign rape cultures, why are they?

[fkizz]

What problem you have with massive exposure of regular French men in of committing rape, thanks to a victim that chose to forfeit her right to anonymity, that you have to have us talk about Epstein?

I don't deny crimes happening in France, nor do I deny the weight of those events, but joining a conversation of this topic where Jeffrey Epstein gets Special Treatment by the very same people outraged at rape or sexual abuse feels anti-climatic and confusing at best.

Your post portrays Epstein as if he had nothing to do with the topic at hand, unrelated.

This is where things jump the shark.

[Paul Atreides]

The "rape culture of Europe" is mostly imported from MENA countries, at least in Nordic countries.

[mishkin]

Discussion focused on sexual violence in Europe, a brutal case is given as an example in which all the participants are European, some want to talk exclusively about Jeffrey Epstein and immigrants. Go ahead guys, go ahead. Say it louder, you only care about sexual violence if you can relate it to immigration and the "leftist elites".

Fortunately, there are those who add touches of humor stating that in their country (European) the cases of sexual violence were practically non-existent until the arrival of Muslim immigrants in the 21st century.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't deny crimes happening in France, nor do I deny the weight of those events, but joining a conversation of this topic where Jeffrey Epstein gets Special Treatment by the very same people outraged at rape or sexual abuse feels anti-climatic and confusing at best.
Your post portrays Epstein as if he had nothing to do with the topic at hand, unrelated.
This is where things jump the shark.

That doesn't answer the question but it requires me to alter it a little: What problem you have with massive exposure of regular French men in of committing rape, thanks to a victim that chose to forfeit her right to anonymity, that you have to have us talk about Epstein using a false premise that you completely made up?

The "rape culture of Europe" is mostly imported from MENA countries, at least in Nordic countries.

Let's see. For those who do not know MENA stands for Middle East and North Africa which largely refers to Muslim majority countries. Sweden, as some of you might be aware, is a Nordic country where high number of rape crimes are often associated with regardless of what data says:

Swedish rape offenders — a latent class analysis

A total of 3 039 offenders were included in the analysis. A majority of them were immigrants (n = 1 800; 59.2%) of which a majority (n = 1 451; 47.7%) were born outside of Sweden.

Why I quoted this? Because a 59.2% is not a good starting point for your assertion. We all know that rape often goes unreported (by more than a range of factor of 10 to 100 depending on what year and statistics you look at) but we also know that victims are extremely highly more likely to report it if the perpetrator is a foreigner.

Let's look at MENA statistics as is though:

Among Swedish born offenders with one parent born outside of Sweden (n = 172), the foreign-born parent was mostly born in Western Countries (72.7%) followed by Eastern Europe (11.0%). Regarding Swedish born offenders with no parent born in Sweden (n = 177), a high proportion of the mothers and fathers were born in Western countries (40.7% and 33.9%) followed by the Middle East/North Africa (19.8% and 24.0%). The largest group of the study population was found among offenders born outside of Sweden (n = 1 451); a significant part was from the Middle East/North Africa (34.5%) followed by Africa (19.1%).

Not even if we take crime statistics as is it still doesn't show us that rape in Sweden is mainly caused by people from MENA countries (if you actually check the data offenders from MENA countries make up about 18% of the all offenders).

Meanwhile, we have a case from France with one women but over 80 rapists committing a series of crimes over the span of about 10 years with ads online going unchallenged till the pervert risked it all by taking under skirt photos at a supermarket.

[Legio_Italica]

Discussion focused on sexual violence in Europe, a brutal case is given as an example in which all the participants are European, some want to talk exclusively about Jeffrey Epstein and immigrants. Go ahead guys, go ahead. Say it louder, you only care about sexual violence if you can relate it to immigration and the "leftist elites".

One case where rapes didn’t get caught for awhile = rape culture.

A lifetime spent openly trafficking people on behalf of the wealthiest and most powerful individuals in western society while enjoying total protection by and lavish wealth from the same = far right conspiracy theory, not rape culture.

The accusation of ideological exclusivity here is pure projection. The OP is nothing more than ideological bait and that’s why the “discussion of sexual violence in Europe” is focused on one case as the smoking gun of “rape culture” but would dismiss the decades-long cover up of rapist migrant gangs in the UK where mostly South Asian migrants targeted mostly British children as racist fear mongering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rother...tation_scandal

Fortunately, there are those who add touches of humor stating that in their country (European) the cases of sexual violence were practically non-existent until the arrival of Muslim immigrants in the 21st century.

It’s indisputable that increased sexual violence in European countries is correlated with third world immigration. Even OP’s attempt to refute this notes the majority of rapes are committed by immigrants, with Middle Eastern and African migrants committing these crimes at rates many times higher than their respective percentages of the total population. By contrast, just 7.3% migrant rapists from the sample were born in western countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...ort=objectonly

[fkizz]

That doesn't answer the question but it requires me to alter it a little: What problem you have with massive exposure of regular French men in of committing rape[...]

We can get to that, but your OP is about "rape culture in Europe", not "rape culture exclusively in French borders".
So naturally I extended the type of cases to borders beyond France, because the title mentions European first

that you have to have us talk about Epstein using a false premise that you completely made up?

Do you consider Jeffrey Epstein irrelevant to the question of sexual abuse? Or do you defend his innocence? Or that those who consider that Jeffrey Epstein was up to something unsavory are "making things up"? Your stance by page 3 is still very ambiguous, which is odd, given your strong concern and opinion.

At least clarify something or it may seem like your post is giving Jeffrey Epstein Special Treatment. But up to you if you don't mind that.

There's other European cases, like Rotherham. Or would you prefer cases exclusive to French borders only? If so, change the title of your OP, for it says Europe and France is just one country.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's quite understandable why some might feel the need to push the discussion away from the embarrassing reality of rape culture in Europe stemming from every day citizens to groups they feel more comfortable with blaming it for. However, those reasons can not be talked here. Unacceptable but not impossible to understandable. Those same reasons were what fuelled the same people of using the same tactics when it came to massive cases of Christian men of religion abusing their pupils in unimaginable ways.

Let's take a look at some crime statistics from UK though. One official data set provides us that between April 2011 to March 2018, over 70% of perpetrators arrested for sexual offences were White. Another official data set from 2009 to 2017 shows us that White people represent about 80% of all convictions for sexual offences. A relatively more recent official data covering 2014 to 2022 shows that about 67% of all those convicted of sexual offences were White. Give how rape often goes unreported and that women are highly more likely to report if the perpetrator is a foreigner these numbers shows us that the real problem lies elsewhere.

We can get to that, but your OP is about "rape culture in Europe", not "rape culture exclusively in French borders".
So naturally I extended the type of cases to borders beyond France, because the title mentions European first
Do you consider Jeffrey Epstein irrelevant to the question of sexual abuse? Or do you defend his innocence? Or that those who consider that Jeffrey Epstein was up to something unsavory are "making things up"? Your stance by page 3 is still very ambiguous, which is odd, given your strong concern and opinion.
At least clarify something or it may seem like your post is giving Jeffrey Epstein Special Treatment. But up to you if you don't mind that.
There's other European cases, like Rotherham. Or would you prefer cases exclusive to French borders only? If so, change the title of your OP, for it says Europe and France is just one country.

None of that attempts to answer my question but it instead tries to build up on your made up premise. What's the problem with the question I asked that requires you to attempt to deflect it?


‘I was drugged and abused by my partner for a year. How many more Gisele Pelicots are there?’

The case of Gisele Pelicot, whose husband Dominique drugged her and invited more than 50 strangers to systematically rape her as she lay unconscious, has shocked France. A survivors’ group set up by Gisele’s daughter suggests there could be hundreds of women who are victims of the same crime... Zoë Beaty reports

“I have a six-month period where I have basically no memory,” she explains. Later she found out her boyfriend was consistently spiking her drinks with stimulants like cocaine, MDMA and, at least once, fentanyl, which led her to become disinhibited and lose consciousness. “It was all for his sexual benefit,” says Jane. “He did it so that he could do the things that I didn’t want to do.”

At least three of the men were local; all were unsettlingly ordinary. Among the accused are a fire warden, a student, a journalist, and a nurse from the local hospital. Their ages range between 26 and 74. There is no shared profile between them. The men appearing in the dock are not the monsters women are told to fear in alleyways – they are everyday fathers, brothers, pillars of the community. Their only commonality is in the dehumanising acts they each performed on Gisele.

One additional man is on trial, but he is not charged with raping Gisele. Jean-Pierre Marechal, 63, is accused of procuring drugs from Dominique and copying his methods. He spiked his wife’s food with drugs, tweaking the dose until he “got it right”, and stands charged with repeatedly raping her. Dominique is allegedly recorded in at least three of the 12 assaults on the mother-of-five.

“The reaction from society was at first one of astonishment,” explains Arnaud, an anthropologist and a director in child protection for 15 years. Arnaud was the victim of double incest between the ages of 8 and 12 – first by his great uncle, then by two cousins – and also founded Mouv’Enfants, for survivors of childhood violence and their allies.

And that is the harrowing reality – that all over France, all over the UK and the rest of the world, women are being harmed in the dark, by men they know and trust. Women like Jane. “How many more women like me are watching this trial and finally finding the language for what happened to them?” asks Jane, who had never taken drugs before meeting her ex.

Sandrine Josso, a member of the French assembly entrusted with a parliamentary mission by the government, delivered several impassioned speeches on this issue. She too is a victim – she says her drink was spiked with ecstasy by senator Joel Guerriau in November 2023. He has since claimed that he “didn’t mean to” drug her and has apologised to Josso.

[Legio_Italica]

First you cited a study pointing out most rapists are migrants then you cite other statistics pointing out whites in the UK commit disproportionately less rape relative to their percentage of the population. I would say you’ve done a good job undermining the premise of your own thread.

[PointOfViewGun]

First you cited a study pointing out most rapists are migrants then you cite other statistics pointing out whites in the UK commit disproportionately less rape relative to their percentage of the population. I would say you’ve done a good job undermining the premise of your own thread.

The first data set actually puts purely Swedish added with those from Western countries at over 50% and puts people from MENA at about 18% despite Paul Atreides' claim that they're mostly from MENA countries which pretty much means indicates an overwhelming majority representation. In fact, while migrants from Western countries make up only about 4% of Sweden's population they represent about 10% of rapists. That small correction and insight aside, are you saying that these numbers accurately indicate the number of rapists in Sweden?

[fkizz]

So PointofViewGun, I actually mention/add notorious cases of sexual abuse happening/happened in the West/Europe and you claim I'm changing the topic?
Do you realize how bizarre that sounds?

It's almost as if you don't actually care about the social issues mentioned in your OP

[Cyclops]

Staggering perversion. I feel attempts to deflect blame for sex crimes from French men onto some foreigners will serve to protect the mass of rapists. Its seems spineless and disloyal to do so.

[Legio_Italica]

The first data set actually puts purely Swedish added with those from Western countries at over 50% and puts people from MENA at about 18% despite Paul Atreides' claim that they're mostly from MENA countries which pretty much means indicates an overwhelming majority representation. In fact, while migrants from Western countries make up only about 4% of Sweden's population they represent about 10% of rapists. That small correction and insight aside, are you saying that these numbers accurately indicate the number of rapists in Sweden?

I’m saying that if what you just said is accurate, people from Sweden or other western countries only commit half of rapes there despite being 85%+ of the total population. If Middle Eastern migrants are committing 18% of the rapes, that’s 4 times higher than their percentage of the total population.

If we just look at the Swedish study you cited, 106 of the 3039 rapists sampled were born in western countries, or 7.3% of 1451 foreign born rapists. That’s 4% of the total, not 10%. If migrants from western countries are 4% of the population, that’s proportionate. 501 of the 3039 rapists sampled were born in MENA, or 34.5% of 1451 foreign born rapists. That’s 17% of the total. If Middle Eastern migrants are 4% of the total population, that’s 4x higher.

If this is the “real side of rape culture in Europe,” it indicates the opposite of what you’ve attempted to convey by starting a bait thread about a rape case in France.

[PointOfViewGun]

So PointofViewGun, I actually mention/add notorious cases of sexual abuse happening/happened in the West/Europe and you claim I'm changing the topic?
Do you realize how bizarre that sounds?
It's almost as if you don't actually care about the social issues mentioned in your OP

That's not what you did and you're still trying to deflect from answering a question I asked you. Is it that you're trying to use accusations against others to cover up the failures of your own narrative?

I’m saying that if what you just said is accurate, people from Sweden or other western countries only commit half of rapes there despite being 85%+ of the total population. If Middle Eastern migrants are committing 18% of the rapes, that’s 4 times higher than their percentage of the total population.

If we just look at the Swedish study you cited, 106 of the 3039 rapists sampled were born in western countries, or 7.3% of 1451 foreign born rapists. That’s 4% of the total, not 10%. If migrants from western countries are 4% of the population, that’s proportionate. 501 of the 3039 rapists sampled were born in MENA, or 34.5% of 1451 foreign born rapists. That’s 17% of the total. If Middle Eastern migrants are 4% of the total population, that’s 4x higher.

If this is the “real side of rape culture in Europe,” it indicates the opposite of what you’ve attempted to convey by starting a bait thread about a rape case in France.

2023 official numbers put MENA migrants at 7.5% of Sweden's population. A 4 times higher rate would require 30% of rapists to be from MENA countries, not 18%. Interesting that you are ignoring parts of the data that doesn't support your narrative. You are only looking at those "born outside of Sweden" for people from Western countries but earlier you didn't have a problem with including other sections that listed numbers for people with one or both or no parents born in Sweden that were not from Sweden. When we look at all the data we actually see that 303 people with connections to Western heritage were convicted of rape which makes it about 10% of the total convicted, not 4%. If we were to use your newfound criteria, given that those rapists "born outside of Sweden" make up about 48% of all rape convictions you wouldn't be able to claim (twice) that majority of rape is committed by migrants.

With all those corrections aside (again), you seem to be indirectly arguing that these rape convictions accurately represent all cases of rape happening in Sweden which means you do not believe that rape goes underreported or that victims are more willing to report if the crime is committed by a foreigner. It's an important distinction for your position. Please confirm it.

[fkizz]

That's not what you did and you're still trying to deflect from answering a question I asked you. Is it that you're trying to use accusations against others to cover up the failures of your own narrative?

I brought up additional cases of sexual abuse/rape in europe/west, which you repeteadly claim that such is deflecting from OP topic. In what way does that go against your OP? What is my "agenda", are you sure you aren't projecting?

Staggering perversion. I feel attempts to deflect blame for sex crimes from French men onto some foreigners will serve to protect the mass of rapists. Its seems spineless and disloyal to do so.

Actually, I added more cases including born-Westerners (seems Ethnicity one is born with suddenly is a big deal for Liberals now for some reason), the Rotherham incident and Jeffrey Epstein actually includes Westerners colluding aswell, so what is the issue?
It feel like you aren't actually reading what I posted but instead replying to a huge strawman due to not knowing what else to do.

[Legio_Italica]

2023 official numbers put MENA migrants at 7.5% of Sweden's population. A 4 times higher rate would require 30% of rapists to be from MENA countries, not 18%. Interesting that you are ignoring parts of the data that doesn't support your narrative. You are only looking at those "born outside of Sweden" for people from Western countries but earlier you didn't have a problem with including other sections that listed numbers for people with one or both or no parents born in Sweden that were not from Sweden. When we look at all the data we actually see that 303 people with connections to Western heritage were convicted of rape which makes it about 10% of the total convicted, not 4%. If we were to use your newfound criteria, given that those rapists "born outside of Sweden" make up about 48% of all rape convictions you wouldn't be able to claim (twice) that majority of rape is committed by migrants.

With all those corrections aside (again), you seem to be indirectly arguing that these rape convictions accurately represent all cases of rape happening in Sweden which means you do not believe that rape goes underreported or that victims are more willing to report if the crime is committed by a foreigner. It's an important distinction for your position. Please confirm it.

I’m just going by your own references and statements, so any inconsistencies between the two are your own. There is no part of the data that conflicts with what I’ve said. If you want to consider people born in Sweden to as many as one Swedish parent migrants, that’s fine. Using that criteria means the 2023 population of migrants from western countries is 10%, not 4%. The criteria don’t change anything, because it would still indicate Middle Eastern migrants commit a disproportionate amount of rape (at least double) relative to native Swedes, westerners or Swedes and westerners combined. Thus you’ve cited statistics undermining the basis for this thread. If you don’t think those are accurate, I don’t know why you referenced them.