Real side of rape culture in Europe

[PointOfViewGun]

Woman ‘raped by 72 men after husband drugged her’ tells trial: ‘I was sacrificed on the altar of vice’

Speaking in a calm and clear voice, Gisele Pelicot, 72, detailed to the court in the southern France city of Avignon the horror of discovering that Dominique Pelicot, 71, systematically filmed the suspected rapes by dozens of men while she was unconcious – storing thousands of images that police investigators later found.

Ms Pelicot only learned of the alleged rapes after her husband of 50 years was caught taking photos of women’s crotches in a supermarket in late 2020 – leading police to search his phone and computer hard drives.

Because Dominique Pelicot videotaped the alleged rapes, police were able to track down – over a period of two years – a majority of the 72 suspects they were seeking.

As well as Pelicot, whose lawyer has said he “always declared himself guilty”, 50 other men, aged 22 to 70, are standing trial. Several defendants are denying some of the accusations against them, alleging they were manipulated by Pelicot. The defendants face 20 years in prison if convicted of aggravated rape.

Details of the alleged abuses, which investigators said began in 2011 and continued for a decade have emerged during the trial, which began on Monday.

While people love to focus on rape cases by immigrants, the real face of rape culture exists often much closer to people. Often it is a family member, spouse or partner. Many times they go unreported. In this case the guy was too perverted to keep it hidden. Yet, the scale and extent of this particular case is blood boiling. Kudos to this woman for choosing to waive her right to be anonymous.

Woman tells trial of husband who invited men to rape her: ‘I was sacrificed on altar of vice’

Police said they found a file labelled “abuses” on a USB drive connected to his computer that contained 20,000 images and films of his wife being raped almost 100 times.

Police have said that between 2011 and 2020, Dominique Pélicot crushed sleeping tablets and anti-anxiety medication and mixed them into his wife’s evening meal or in her wine at their home in Mazan, near Carpentras in Provence. He then enlisted men to rape and sexually abuse her, contacting them via an online chatroom, where members discussed preferences for non-consenting partners.

The 50 men on trial with her husband include a local councillor, nurses, a journalist, a former police officer, a prison guard, soldier, firefighter and civil servant, many of whom lived around Mazan, a town of about 6,000 inhabitants. The men were aged between 26 and 73 at the time of their arrests.

At first I thought this case was a new development of an other one from France I posted in the Discussion and Debate Community Thread back then but apparently its a different one as the one from December 2023 case was about arrest of around 80 men for child sex crimes with arrested including school teachers, sport coaches, local councillor, etc. where police search covered more than 100 thousand videos and photos in hard drives.

Since the name of the primary perpetrator in this case is Dominique, and not Abdullah, it does not get the proper attention it needs to get. What is it really in this case that kept the same people who are so vigilant about rape cases silent?

[mishkin]

There was no crime in Europe until immigrants from Africa and Asia began to arrive. We were all ing gentlemen.

My personal experience, if you dont mind. Blue collar worker, 80% national colleagues, If there is a young female companion, the comments are aberrant. We are as violent and aggressive as "any ragged person who has just arrived from the desert".

Correction: The "ragged person who has just arrived from the desert" is more afraid of getting into trouble.

[mishkin]

For fun, you should open another debate with the same facts but changing the nationality or origin of the aggressors. You would see how popular the discussion would become.

[Gigantus]

What is it really in this case that kept the same people who are so vigilant about rape cases silent?

Wrong narrative. Difficult imaging to see someone beat the chest and shout on top of his\her lungs "we are despicable!"

[Sir Adrian]

And here I thought this was a thread about Rape farming when it's just weak bait. The case is pretty extraordinary, if it really happened, but to call it rape culture is kind of ridiculous.

[Ludicus]

Rate of sexual violence reported in Europe 2022, by country
(per 100,000 inhabitants)

Definitions of rape in the legislation of EU Member States

Sweden deserves a mention. The new law has led to a significant rise in convictions. See last page.

[mishkin]

...In Europe there is a culture of rape/attitude of men towards women as sexual objects/culture of women as objects/possessions of men.

Packs of men partying and abusing women is a common occurrence, at least in my country, and has been going on for a long time... Our culture of treating women as sexual objects and prey in a in a sadistic game is still very deep-rooted.

[Sir Adrian]

There is no culture of rape in Europe. Rape is a serious crime in every single European country.

[mishkin]

Just because something is punishable doesn't mean it's not integrated into a country's culture. For example wife rape was legal until the middle of the last century, these kinds of ideas don't go away just because a law is passed. She is my wife and I have the right to ### her whenever I want is still very much in force.

[Sir Adrian]

Prove that rape is integrated in the culture of any European country. Go ahead.

[Legio_Italica]

Just because something is punishable doesn't mean it's not integrated into a country's culture. For example wife rape was legal until the middle of the last century, these kinds of ideas don't go away just because a law is passed. She is my wife and I have the right to ### her whenever I want is still very much in force.

This kind of performative self-flagellation popular on the western left loses any compelling value given the same people are the ones determined to mass import migrants from places where marital rape isn’t even legally considered rape, let alone culturally.

[mishkin]

This kind of performative self-flagellation popular on the western left loses any compelling value given the same people are the ones determined to mass import migrants from places where marital rape isn’t even legally considered rape, let alone culturally.

I am proud to be a leftist, to have the capacity for self-criticism and to wish that my society improves thanks to education, not by restricting access to my country to people seeking asylum or an opportunity to live with dignity.

Two days ago in my city a neighbour, a local guy, doused his ex-partner (a woman) with gasoline and set her on fire. If you want to talk about the dangers of immigration we can do it in another discussion.

Edit. If your defense of Western society is that other societies are worse, that is a very bad argument.

[Sir Adrian]

That's great. Now where's that proof that rape is integrated in culture.

[Legio_Italica]

If your defense of Western society is that other societies are worse, that is a very bad argument.

Why? The comparison is the basis for this thread. The two are only linked in the first place because leftists are determined to import other societies into western societies, with no regard for the former being “worse” in most cases according to the same criteria used to self-criticize western culture. If it weren’t for that, Europeans wouldn’t need to care about whether or not western society is better than any other, because they wouldn’t need to interact with people from these societies if they didn’t go out of their way to do so. Italy has slashed migrant arrivals by two thirds, tightening border security and penalties for illegal migration while bribing their home countries to intervene against the criminal organizations facilitating it for profit. “Dignity” has little to do with it, and migrants are not smuggling themselves into Europe because they are enamored with the liberal enlightenment of western culture.

Even on the basis of western self criticism, is it not primarily leftists who call conservatives “far right conspiracy theorists” for pointing out that the likes of Marc Dutroux and Jeffrey Epstein had all kinds of connections to western elites, including governments and intelligence agencies who almost certainly protected them? Self-criticism is apparently only valid when used to undermine people and groups the liberal establishment considers to be an obstacle to their political ambitions. If there is a “rape culture” in Europe, it is a privilege of the elite and the foreigners they have imported en masse.

[mishkin]

That's great. Now where's that proof that rape is integrated in culture.

How do you justify the widespread sexual violence that women suffer? From sexual harassment, rude comments, to packs of men partying looking for some drunk girl? Are these isolated cases of degenerates? Nothing to do with a society that for centuries has seen women as sexual objects placed there for the enjoyment of men and submission to them?

Have you read the news that heads this discussion? Do you realize that without a doubt half of that small town knew what was happening in that house and did nothing?

For those who want comparisons, please answer how widespread the news would be if the perpetrators had been immigrants. We would have three threads talking about it here.

[Sir Adrian]

So you don't have any then. Understood.

I do find it curious how you conclude that half the town surely knew, btw Avignon has close to 100k people, when it took a full scan of the guy's phone and a 2 year investigation to find out. By the by in a country where rape culture exists that investigation would have never taken place.

[mishkin]

The abuses did not take place in Avignon, Avignon is the court closest to the town where the events occurred.

"The 50 men on trial with her husband include a local councillor, nurses, a journalist, a former police officer, a prison guard, soldier, firefighter and civil servant, many of whom lived around Mazan, a town of about 6,000 inhabitants"

It's curious to hear that rape culture doesn't exist when the accused include city officials, police officers, journalists...

Edit: Correction, only three of those arrested were from exactly the same town where the victim lived.

"All this happened in the quaint, medieval French village of Mazan, which has a population of just over 6,000 people. According to the Telegraph, at least three men are from the village itself, and others are from the surrounding areas".


This does not change the fact that it is impossible that only the detainees knew what was happening there.

From the same article:

The case highlights a number of pervasive issues, like the dehumanization of women, the rape of unconscious victims and the use of technology in assaults, said Ummni Khan, an associate professor of law and legal studies at Carleton University in Ottawa.

But one of the most troublesome issues is the idea that marriage means ownership, said Khan, who researches gender, sexuality and the law.

"The fact that there were so many men willing to engage in this atrocious assault and that their ages ranged from 20s to 70s, means that there is a pervasive belief that if a husband gives his consent to access his wife's body, then you are entitled to commit rape," said Khan.

"Under this ideology, a woman's body, autonomy and agency — her very humanity — is simply an object of pleasure for the men. It's terrifying. It's a wake-up call."

We live in a society. Dominique Pelicot, the husband:

Spoiler for obscenity description

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Seated in a wheelchair, Pelicot spoke to the court for an hour, from his early life to years of abuse against his now ex-wife. Expressing remorse, his voice trembling and at times barely audible, he sought to explain events that he said scarred his childhood and planted the seed of vice in him.

"One is not born a pervert, one becomes a pervert," Pelicot told the judges, after recounting, sometimes in tears, being raped by a male nurse in hospital when he was nine years old and then being forced to take part in a gang rape at age 14.

Pelicot also spoke of the trauma endured when his parents took a young girl in the family, and witnessing his father's inappropriate behaviour toward her.

"My father used to do the same thing with the little girl,'' he said. "After my father's death, my brother said that men used to come to our house."

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Speaking of culture, in this place an eminent citizen from another era used the name of "whorekiller" for years. It was just funny

[Sir Adrian]

The abuses did not take place in Avignon, Avignon is the court closest to the town where the events occurred.

"The 50 men on trial with her husband include a local councillor, nurses, a journalist, a former police officer, a prison guard, soldier, firefighter and civil servant, many of whom lived around Mazan, a town of about 6,000 inhabitants"

It's curious to hear that rape culture doesn't exist when the accused include city officials, police officers, journalists...

Last time I checked humanity was not a hive mind. A couple of politicians being perverts or rapists does not mean everyone else is the same. Even if the entire town knew and supported what was happening, which it didn't, but let's pretend it did, that still does not mean there is a rape culture in Europe because 3 people do not define a town and a town does not define a continent. If you want to see actual rape culture go look at the muslim Afghan practice of Bacha bazi. That's what real rape culture looks like, in the open, encouraged and normalised.

[PointOfViewGun]

From FOX News:

Mass rape trial lays bare France's disturbing culture of sexual assault, critics allege

A mass-rape trial in France has exposed what many have called a "rape culture" that has run rampant in the country.

"One is not born a pervert. One becomes a pervert," he told the court, claiming he had been raped by a male nurse in a hospital when he was nine years old and then forced to participate in a gang rape at 14.

"From my youth, I remember only shocks and traumas, forgotten partly thanks to her. She did not deserve this, I acknowledge it," he said of his wife. If convicted, Dominique Pélicot faces 20 years in prison.

Piques pointed to the website that Dominique Pélicot used to invite men to his home, which had over 500,000 visitors a month last year, noting that "100% of these people… never made a phone call to stop this abuse."
"Not one man thought about informing the police of these criminal facts," Piques said.

Women moved by defiant Gisèle Pelicot in France mass rape trial

In 2022, 1,229 people in France suspected they had been drugged without their knowledge, according to Leila Chaouachi, a pharmacist at the Paris addiction monitoring centre and an expert on drug rape.
That number is probably “only the tip of the iceberg”, she believes. Victims often hesitate to file legal complaints because they know the assailant, they might be ashamed, or they have hazy memories of what happened.
Complaints also need to be filed before the substances disappear from the body, which is not always possible.

Police were only able to identify 50 suspects out of the 83 that appeared in Dominique Pelicot’s videos.
Their ages range from 26 to 68 and they hail from all walks of life - firefighters, pharmacists, labourers and journalists. Many are fathers and husbands.

“What shocked me even more is that so many men could have done this - more than 50 ‘normal’ men, who all lived nearby," said Caroline, a 43-year-old doctor from Paris.
"[Pelicot] didn't even have to look very far for them. It really scares me because it is a reflection of society. It's not the norm, but there are too many.”

Another concern that has not escaped the large numbers of women across France who are following the Pelicot case is that many other men knew and did nothing.
Dominique Pelicot had invited men to have sex with his wife “without her knowledge” in a post on the Coco.gg website, which was shut down only last June. Last year it counted 500,000 visitors a month.
“One hundred per cent of these people... never made a phone call to stop this abuse,” says Céline Piques. “Not one man thought about informing the police of these criminal facts.”

Some have accused Dominique Pelicot of “manipulating” them into believing they were taking part in an erotic game in which Gisèle was only pretending to be asleep because she was shy.
At least two of the defendants stated they did not feel they had raped Gisèle because she had been “offered” to them by her own husband, and one man said he did not consider his actions rape because "for me, rape is when you grab someone off the street".

Summing up this line of defence earlier this week, Guillaume De Palma, a lawyer for six of the defendants, caused outrage when he said that “rape is not always rape”, and argued that “without the intention of committing rape, there is no rape".
In French law, rape is sexual penetration obtained by constraint, violence or surprise – and Gisèle Pelicot’s lawyers are expected to argue that “surprise” covers the case of a sedated or unconscious woman.

Rapist raped as a boy himself by a nurse and participated in a gang rape as a teen. Only getting 20 years for what he have done to his wife for almost a decade. About half a million witnesses per month. Not one disgusted enough to contact the authorities. How could they? They're on that site looking at a rape ad. They were complicit. Half a million offenders a month.

[Ludicus]

Prove that rape is integrated in the culture of any European country. Go ahead.

Rape is not an inherent aspect of masculine nature. Violence is not an inherent aspect of maculine nature. That said, what happens in Europe?

-This is the first survey of its kind on violence against women across the EU’s 28 Member States. Violence against women: an EU-wide survey. Results at a ...

Key points,

-Depending on the number of different forms of sexual harassment that were asked about in the survey, an estimated 83 million to 102 million women (45 % to 55 % of women) in the EU-28 have experienced sexual harassment since the age of 15.

-An estimated 24 million to 39 million women (13 % to 21 %) in the EU-28 have experienced sexual harassment in the 12 months before the survey interview alone.

-four out of 10 women (40 %) avoid public places where there are no other people around, and a similar percentage (37 %) deliberately avoid taking certain streets or going to certain areas for fear of being physically or sexually assaulted; in addition, 14 % of women avoid leaving home alone for fear of physical or sexual assault.

-Eight in 10 women (78 %) in the EU think that violence against women is very common or fairly common in their country.

-On average, 39 % of women in the EU indicate that they know of other women who are victims of ‘domestic violence’ in their circle of friends and family. More than one in five women (22 %) knows someone at her current or previous place of work or study who has been a victim of intimate partner violence.

-Close to nine in 10 women (87 %) would support the practice whereby doctors routinely ask about violence when they see women with certain injuries in their practice.

-One in three women (33%) has experienced physical and/or sexual violence since the age of 15. One in five women (18 %) has experienced stalking; every second woman (55 %) has been confronted with one or more forms of sexual harassment.

-Yet the scale of violence against women is not reflected by official data. Women generally do not report to the police, and they also do not report to a number of other services that could support them, including victim support organizations.
--

Although few EU-wide statistics about the prevalence of rape across the EU are available, in 2014, one in 20 European women reported having been raped.Surveys tend to to substantially underestimate the true extent of the crime. survey by the EU Agency for Fundamental Rights

What do you say? I say: rape culture isn't a myth.

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... go look at the muslim Afghan practice of Bacha bazi..

Sounds like the appeal to extremes fallacy....

What About the Boys: A Gendered Analysis of the U.S. of the U.S. Withdrawal and Bacha Bazi in Afghanistan ...

The Taliban banned and publicly punished the practice when they came to power in the 1990s, but after the collapse of their regime in 2001, when the former Islamist commanders from the days of the anti-Soviet insurgency came to power, bacha bazi again became common in certain regions of Afghanistan and evolved into boys being kidnapped, trafficked, and raped without any semblance to or recognition of the cultural nuances that used to embody the practice such as dancing at events or social gatherings.
In today’s Afghanistan, it has become an avenue for wealthy or powerful men, particularly those involved in the factions that were part of the former Northern Alliance and the ANSF – the U.S. allies in the region – to sexually abuse young boys under the pretense of engaging in the historical practice of bacha bazi.

But there's no need to go to Afghanistan to see the western practice of “bacha bazi”: 216,000 children were abused by Catholic priests between 1950 and 2020.