Real side of rape culture in Europe

[mishkin]

All the data is very interesting Ludicus, but men do tend towards violence and one of our strongest drives is sex. Add to that the fact that we live in a society (like practically any society in the modern age) that is historically sexist.

Not all men are rapists, some inherently have empathy, some have to learn that it is not right or iillegal. (My god, all those guys waiting for girl X to reach the legal age to have sex).

Edit: Put a man in a position of power and impunity, and see what happens (the example you gave, the Catholic Church, the showbusiness, etc).

We are not all rapists but it is better to keep a close eye on us.

[Ludicus]

men do tend towards violence

Thre is no doubt about it.This is what the survey on violence against women in the 28 EU Member States shows. But I think it's mainly a cultural issue. Although testosterone levels are higher in individuals with aggressive behavior.

[Sir Adrian]

Men and women have the exact same tendency towards violence. The difference is that with men that violence is physical, with women it's psychological - stuff like emotional abuse, reputation smearing, etc. Also violence never happens in a void, every single incidence of violence has a cause, and it's often not "he/she's a psycho/sociopath".

Rape is not an inherent aspect of masculine nature. Violence is not an inherent aspect of maculine nature. That said, what happens in Europe?

This nothing but empty whataboutism. Mish claimed rape is integrated in European culture, a statement which he has yet to back up with anything. You contradicted him in the first sentence and then brought up violence as some kind of argument after you just wiped the floor with what he said.

You want statistics, here's a nice stat, women commit slightly more domestic violence than men. What does that have to do with rape? Absolutely nothing.

[mishkin]

Sir Adrian, my position on this issue (rape in Europe and how normalized it is) is that the situation, illustrated by the example presented at the beginning of this thread, is shameful. What is your position?

Can you quote here exactly what data from the study you mention is relevant to this discussion? (It's a study with an American population, by the way). Are you trying to talk about the violence that is exerted in raising children? (I say this because this is usually mentioned as a last resort when talking about misogyny).

[fkizz]

This kind of performative self-flagellation popular on the western left loses any compelling value given the same people are the ones determined to mass import migrants from places where marital rape isn’t even legally considered rape, let alone culturally.[...]

Even on the basis of western self criticism, is it not primarily leftists who call conservatives “far right conspiracy theorists” for pointing out that the likes of Marc Dutroux and Jeffrey Epstein had all kinds of connections to western elites, including governments and intelligence agencies who almost certainly protected them? Self-criticism is apparently only valid when used to undermine people and groups the liberal establishment considers to be an obstacle to their political ambitions. If there is a “rape culture” in Europe, it is a privilege of the elite and the foreigners they have imported en masse.

The whole "rape culture of europe" defenders will defend the Epsteins of this world right after and those who dennounce or even minimally criticize them as "conspiracy theorists".

How can this make sense then? What's the game? It's that by saying europe has rape culture, is to claim that the west has a "criminal culture" albeit indirectly. If the west operates via "criminal culture", it's to indirectly claim that anything western institutional are more or less gangsters and mafia by default, including the ones trying to prevent crimes from happening, everyone is included.

OP starts with a textbook fallacy of intentionally confusing the tree for the forest, to try to paint anything western, regardless of guilty or innocent, good or bad, young or old, as being part of this organization with "criminal culture" by default. Now everyone knows what organizations with real criminal culture do and are called, but some, possibly due to having their quality of life and comfort supplied by the west, are too afraid to call the west by the name intended.

It's a mix of fear of confrontation with subversive ideas in them, that could bear fruit if not for other incidents widely known.

If OP wants things to actually be discussed, speak what has to be spoken instead of using catiness to eternally beat around the bush.

[mishkin]

Has anyone here defended powerful European men who abuse women? Please proceed to report the men belonging to the European elite (politicians, businessmen, film directors... Strauss-Kahn, Berlusconi, Luc Besson...), and don't get upset because we were talking about the countless cases of not-so-popular rapists.

[fkizz]

Has anyone here defended powerful European men who abuse women? Please proceed to report the men belonging to the European elite (politicians, businessmen, film directors... Strauss-Kahn, Luc Besson...), and don't get upset because we were talking about the countless cases of not-so-popular rapists.

The whole movements denouncing Epstein were quickly labelled as a far right wing conspiracy theorist movement and promptly "debunked".

You already had a name, wasn't needed to ask again.

Now given rape is considered a crime in the West and some "ideologue" figures claim West has "rape culture", the real game is to actually say "Western culture is a criminal culture", but without the guts for confrontation.

[mishkin]

Many people said a lot of nonsense and invented a lot of lies about that case.

There is still an excessive tolerance for rape in European society. I think it is too much to say that Europe is a criminal society. Would you also say that Europe is an alcoholic society because of the importance of alcohol in it? It is obviously an imperfect society, which needs to improve a lot. You say that European society is a criminal society, do you want to clean it up perhaps? You talk about honesty, what is this really about?

[fkizz]

Many people said a lot of nonsense and invented a lot of lies about that case.

Defending Epstein even by this point just because the movement that denounced him out was right wing doesn't give you much credibility.

There is still an excessive tolerance for rape in European society. I think it is too much to say that Europe is a criminal society.

Not sure why you're going for the strawman but alright.

I didn't agree with West having culture of rape, therefore I didn't agree that European society is a criminal society.

In the West, rape is culturally and legally considered a crime, so culture of rape is culture of crime, at least of a certain type. You are being logically unsound and incoherent in your posts here, unless you agree with certain places where rape isn't legally or culturally considered a crime? Then it would make sense.


To further tackle the issue, it would require government to further regulate/decide what adults do in their privacy even more, and left wing (and other) movements have been protesting against that for decades, so decide what you actually want.

Would you also say that Europe is an alcoholic society because of the importance of alcohol in it?

Some people have problems with alcoholism and excessive alcohol consumption, yes, but not an "alcoholic society".

It is obviously an imperfect society, which needs to improve a lot. You say that European society is a criminal society, do you want to clean it up perhaps?

Another strawman, I don't agree European culture is rape culture, therefore I didn't say European society is a criminal society, just followed the logical endgame of OP's fallacy of confusing the tree with the forest.

You talk about honesty, what is this really about?

I would need OP to say what he really means by that, instead of pulling the eternal catiness card. You would need that aswell, not just me, so possibly some confusion you may have isn't entirely your fault.

[mishkin]

Defending Epstein even by this point just because the movement that denounced him out was right wing doesn't give you much credibility.

Please quote me defending Einstein's innocence if you want to continue this conversation or you want me to read more of what you're saying.

[fkizz]

Please quote me defending Einstein's innocence if you want to continue this conversation or you want me to read more of what you're saying.

Very evasive reply.

So after mentioning "the Epsteins of this world" and that those who denounced Epstein were classified as "(right wing) conspiracy theorists"

Please proceed to report the men belonging to the European elite

As if Epstein wasn't named twice in the thread already. And as if it wasn't the second time in the thread that it mentioned that those who named Epstein were dubbed as "right wing conspiracy theorists".

Granted one could argue if he was more into European countries or other Western countries, hence using the term "western culture", but that's semantics.

Then it was needed a third mention (upon request).. to get this in reply.

Many people said a lot of nonsense and invented a lot of lies about that case.

Given it's been more than a decade since Epstein thing started to come out, it's a very evasive reply that avoids saying negative things about Epstein, and mostly focus the negative on the ones who denounced Epstein instead.

Doesn't pass the best message, but likely you're trolling or something.

[mishkin]

Please quote me defending Einstein's innocence if you want to continue this conversation or you want me to read more of what you're saying.

my apologies for the linguistic lapse (Einstein).

Happy to talk to anyone about rape culture in Europe and the variant that could seem to emerge a few posts above about how this misogynistic sciety makes the legal system, part of this society as well obviously, fail on multiple occasions. How society often protects rapists and attacks victims.

[fkizz]

misogynistic sciety makes the legal system, part of this society as well obviously, fail on multiple occasions. How society often protects rapists and attacks victims.

What's your take on Jeffrey Epstein?

I mean your posts show such strong opinions on this type of matters. Or if you don't want to discuss/include that person in particular, well, I'll have to accept it.

[mishkin]

Epstein was a sex trafficker and a rapist (of minors). He deserved a thousand worse things than to die.

I encourage you to relate his case to the topic of this discussion. For example, as I said before, powerful men take advantage of their position to commit crimes that are unattainable for ordinary men, who usually have to make do with the village whore and with making inappropriate compliments to anything with a skirt that passes in front of him when he is with his colleagues.


The dream of many men, traveling on a jet to a private island where they can teenagers.

[fkizz]

Epstein was a sex trafficker and a rapist (of minors). He deserved a thousand worse things than to die.

I encourage you to relate his case to the topic of this discussion. For example, as I said before, powerful men take advantage of their position to commit crimes that are unattainable for ordinary men, who usually have to make do with the village whore and with making inappropriate compliments to anything with a skirt that passes in front of him when he is with his colleagues.

Took me 5 posts for you to finally concede that the water is wet. (6 counting the post that wasn't mine). Was some effort.

Albeit it's naive to assume that criminality only has male perpetrators.

Females commit unsavory things aswell, this case being an example. Jeffrey Epstein had a female partner aiding him since a long time, in fact his scheme wouldn't work without female accomplices, how does your ideology deal with the fact that such abusive systems often are found to have females in it aswell?

It's almost as if power-abuse tendencies aren't gender exclusive, but can come from the "human being" regardless if the person is male or female. Not sure if I'm being egalitarian by saying this or something else.

[mishkin]

Took me 5 posts for you to finally concede that the water is wet. (6 counting the post that wasn't mine). Was some effort.

Albeit it's naive to assume that criminality only has male perpetrators.

Females commit unsavory things aswell, this case being an example. Jeffrey Epstein had a female partner aiding him since a long time, in fact his scheme wouldn't work without female accomplices, how does your ideology deal with the fact that such abusive systems often are found to have females in it aswell?

It's almost as if power-abuse tendencies aren't gender exclusive, but can come from the "human being" regardless if the person is male or female. Not sure if I'm being egalitarian by saying this or something else.

You are presented with a horrible specific case of multitudinous rape, figures are presented about the percentage of women who suffer sexual assault, and your response is that women also commit crimes. Why? What does that have to do with the sexual violence that women in Europe suffer? Are they raped as punishment for being criminals or what?

[PointOfViewGun]

You are presented with a horrible specific case of multitudinous rape, figures are presented about the percentage of women who suffer sexual assault, and your response is that women also commit crimes. Why?

The responses here has been quite striking. We even had someone questioning the authenticity of the case. The level of misdirection some people chose to create while even shying away from acknowledging what happened in France is a very concerning sign of the state of things.

[Ludicus]

women commit slightly more domestic violence than men

Not really.The CDC defines domestic violence as "physical violence, sexual violence, stalking, and psychological aggression (including coercive acts) by a current or former intimate partner."

From your link:

“Contact Sexual Violence, Physical Violence, and/or Stalking”

Female Victims

Among female victims of intimate partner-perpetrated contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking, 86.8% (or 51.2 million) experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner during their lifetimes

Male Victims

Among male victims of intimate partner-perpetrated contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking, 59.6% (or 31.1 million) reported experiencing contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner during their lifetimes

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Home | Domestic Violence

Domestic abuse is common and can affect anyone – no matter their age, race, gender, zip code or income. 1 in 3 teens, 1 in 4 women, and 1 in 7 men will experience domestic violence.
The CDC defines domestic violence as "physical violence, sexual violence, stalking, and psychological aggression (including coercive acts) by a current or former intimate partner."
Domestic violence (also called intimate partner violence (IPV), dating abuse, or relationship abuse) is a pattern of behaviors used by one partner to maintain power and control over another partner in an intimate relationship.
Domestic violence can come in many forms and includes behaviors that intimidate, manipulate, humiliate, isolate, frighten, terrorize, coerce, threaten, blame, hurt, injure, or wound someone.

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It’s probably my fault,but I can see that you have some trouble understanding what I'm saying. The comprehensive survey on violence against women in the 28 EU Member States clearly shows that men are more likely than women to perpetrate violence.

1)The cause is cultural, not inherent.

2)- But I repeat - and I try to understand - high testosterone levels are in some cases related to increased aggression. Testosterone and Aggressive Behavior in Man - PMC

...Therefore, when a high testosterone/cortisol ratio occurs it is more likely to result in socially aggressive behavior (34)...the major agents of neuroendocrine influence on aggression in brain process form a triad: testosterone activates subcortical tendencies towards aggression and cortisol and serotonin act antagonistically to testosterone.

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More,
Men's violence against women and men are inter-related Recommendations for simultaneous intervention

Men perpetrate and are victims of interpersonal violence more than women.

Masculine norms are at the root of most interpersonal violence perpetration.

Youth violence and partner violence prevention is often conducted separately.

Interventions tackling masculine norms could influence multiple types of violence.

Men are more likely than women to perpetrate nearly all types of interpersonal violence (e.g. intimate partner violence, murder, assault, rape).

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The Role of Social Support in Machismo and Acceptance of violence among adolescents in Europe...

Unfortunately, machismo and acceptance of violence are quite present in the attitudes of adolescents from different countries of Europe, Experiences of violence in childhood and adolescence, low economic level, low social support of parents and teachers, can play a signi cant role in empowering boys and girls not only to be more aware of their own competences and resources but also to identify signs of risk and danger in their personal relationships.

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The Portuguese newspaper Público published an article last year titled Aprendamos com Espanha: diz-se “violência machista”
"Let’s Learn from Spain: It is Called 'Machista Violence', from which I quote:

Machista violence' has an advantage over 'domestic violence,' as it abandons the spatial aspect and points to the common denominator: it is predominantly men who kill and abuse women simply because they are women. Let’s learn from Spain: it is called 'machista violence.' To deny machista violence is to deny reality; to omit the subject is to lack the tools to address it. Speaking about it, however, is to touch the wound—and that hurts. Nevertheless, it will never hurt as much as machista violence itself.

[fkizz]

The responses here has been quite striking. We even had someone questioning the authenticity of the case. The level of misdirection some people chose to create while even shying away from acknowledging what happened in France is a very concerning sign of the state of things.

So are you also avoiding talking about Epstein despite having such strong opinions about the issue?

[mishkin]

So are you also avoiding talking about Epstein despite having such strong opinions about the issue?

If you want to talk about your conspiracy theory, start a discussion about it. If you want to talk about elites abusing their position (Weinstein, Al Fayed), start a discussion about it. This is a discussion about how "normalized" rape is in the general European population, and your accusations of anyone who doesn't fit into the specific discussion that you want as a defender of Epstein are ridiculous, bordering on defamation.