Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 96

Thread: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    took an arrow to the knee

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    24,853

    Default Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Here is a link to the debate and some fact-checking.

    So far (and is early), Trump acts as I would expect so far, which is not polite and has a weak connection to the truth and whataboutism but projects some force. Not as much as in 2016, but he is Trump. He keeps it together so far without going too unhinged. He did say some things about the Jan 6th ( "Nobody on the other side died!" as if it is a high score thing) and he's playing with numbers about this and that and deviates to crime and immigration, but that is Trump-as-usual.

    So far (and again, it is early) KH keeps it high-class and within-the-rules needles and trolls him so he would lose his cool and start going unhinged to show he's unfit. She is not as funny as Trump although she does have her moments (the love letters to KJU).
    KH is ... enjoying this. She likes this.

    My assertion (at least so far): Trump is Trump, he is not losing support there; I don't expect any bump from this. Just more polarization.


    What do you think? Who is winning?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  2. #2
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Taiwan
    Posts
    5,090

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Not an American, but it seems to me as long as Harris doesn't literally wet herself she's probably done enough?
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  3. #3
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    20,754

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    That was an absolute beatdown by Harris. I'm gonna guess Trump is going to avoid a second debate.
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

  4. #4
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    2,751

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    My initial sentiment while watching the debate was that Harris came on top. Not because she was good, she wasn't. She was abrasive, vacuous and clearly underhanded. She didn't go in there to debate policy, but to bait Trump in the hopes of throwing him off so she can come on top. This she accomplished, perhaps most notably, with what was probably the debate's highlight when she successfully baited Trump on the quality of his rallies. I mean come on dude, grow up already. Furthermore, it was more than obvious to me the moderators were biased against Trump. They had zero interest in being fair-minded, the guy moderator could barely even hide his disdain for Trump when talking to him. The constant interruptions and the one-sided fact checks just aggravated the situation further. But all that aside, my biggest takeaway was that Trump clearly underperformed. He decisively failed to corner a vulnerable Harris in a manner where even an average-level debater could have. She was wide open in several instances and he failed to land a kill blow. Even the few solid punches he did land were drowned out by his constant rambling. If that's the best Trump has, maybe it's time to follow Biden in retirement.

    Harris herself probably believes she came out on top. From what I heard her camp has asked for more debates which seems to indicate that's the case. But if Trump was to accept another debate it absolutely shouldn't be on ABC or a similar such venue. Not with their moderators at least. In fact, maybe it will be best to have a completely unmoderated debate if they decide to have more.

    I will point out that the aftermath of a debate and how it is span is often more important than the debate itself. Especially considering that not all that many people actually would watch the whole thing. So I'm reserving final judgement for that. My prediction is though that this debate won't be particularly consequential. Neither side seems to have come across as particularly good or suffered serious damage, for the most part it was just boring. The campaigns will have to conjure quite some magic tricks to turn this debate into sth interesting.
    Last edited by Alastor; September 11, 2024 at 12:24 AM.

  5. #5
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    17,438

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Trump is clearly unfit to for president. His cognition is worse than Biden's at this point. I feel bad for people who dislike Kamala because their only option is a dollar store version of Biden with tiny hands.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  6. #6

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Trump still doesn't understand how tariffs work. You'd think someone would explain to him the basics of it. How can anyone vote for that?
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #7
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC Consul
    Moderator Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus spy of the council Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,584
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    The whole point about Trump is that he represents (or pretends to, atl) an America that does not exist anymore (especially in terms of economical and international power) and thus he's supported mainly by those who still believe that that America still exists or that want to bring it back (the whole MAGA crap). Those people are essentially blind to reality, thus they are blind to any bug he might have, as big and concerning as it might be.
    I've been following MAGA's propaganda on various platforms, they are up to the point to identify Trump with Jesus, call him "Savior" and all that kind of crap.. sadly, a part of Americans, due to a combination of deep ignorance (especially of foreign realities) and desperate need for reassurance, are biting it.
    On this sense I think that Kamala did well in having an abrasive approach, going against Trump the man rather than Trump the politician, because in any case Trump's core supporters would not listen to any reasonable point, but would rather prefer to stick with the idea that Trump is a great man, and then attacking his personal figure is the best way to put him under pressure.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  8. #8
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    2,751

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    The whole point about Trump is that he represents (or pretends to, atl) an America that does not exist anymore (especially in terms of economical and international power) and thus he's supported mainly by those who still believe that that America still exists or that want to bring it back (the whole MAGA crap). Those people are essentially blind to reality, thus they are blind to any bug he might have, as big and concerning as it might be.
    I have the exact opposite impression. I think that Biden and by extension Harris represent a sort of unipolar Clintonian America, a global hegemon that needs to compromise over nothing and effectively reigns over the world via its 'rules-based order'. Trump's approach seems to be more withdrawn in international matters, more interested in 'deals' and that seems to me to be closer to the current reality of declining American power as the so called global south is increasing its reach.

  9. #9
    Kyriakos's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Posts
    10,114

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    ^I agree with Alastor there. Trump doesn't seem to care about the US not being what it was after ww2. Whether that is a good thing or not, is another subject, but US dominating no longer is realistic (apart from having Eu as a vassal, which is realistic).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  10. #10
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    16,112
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    What does MAGA mean then? is it just a reference to a white America of christian values?

  11. #11
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    took an arrow to the knee

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    24,853

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    christian values?
    Christian Values? Like caring for the poor, love thy neighbor, give one of your two cloaks, Good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, avoid excess, do not cheat on your wife, etc?
    Those values?
    Do you see Many MAGA sharing those?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  12. #12
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    16,112
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Christian Values? Like caring for the poor, love thy neighbor, give one of your two cloaks, Good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, avoid excess, do not cheat on your wife, etc?
    Those values?
    Do you see Many MAGA sharing those?
    You know as well as I do that you can consider yourself a champion of Christianity and be trash that does nothing but spread hatred towards what you do not consider your community (WASP) and anything that they do not considered "normal" or traditional.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Christian Values? Like caring for the poor, love thy neighbor, give one of your two cloaks, Good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, avoid excess, do not cheat on your wife, etc?
    Those values?
    Do you see Many MAGA sharing those?
    They're probably focusing on the keep women silent and not hold power over men part of the Christian values.
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #14
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,271

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Trump is clearly unfit to for president
    And yet half of American voters believe in Trump. What does this tell us?
    ---
    Immigration is a big issue ahead of the US elections, Americans are increasingly worried about immigration

    ...but both candidates forgot to apologize for the tragedy of the refugee crisis in Europe.

    Displacement Caused by the United States' Post-9/11 Wars

    America's Regime Change Wars Created Europe's Refugee Crisis CAT Institute

    Washington’s armed interventions not only created havoc and suffering in the Muslim world, but they have also produced monumental headaches for European allies.
    ----
    As an amusing side note, Von Der Leyen's Germany pays millions to Turkey to keep immigrants fleeing the Middle East in concentration camps... Are billions of EU funds sent to Turkey to help refugees really making a difference?

    ...and sends those who protest against the genocide in Palestine to Moscow,
    Portugal: Pro-Palestine supporters disrupt Von der Leyen
    '
    If you were in Moscow, you'd be in prison right now,' commented Ursula von der Leyen, comparing the protest to the war in Ukraine caused by the Russian invasion.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #15

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Judging by his demeanor and responses Trump went into the debate assuming he would have an easy time against a 'mere woman', but was quickly overwhelmed. Instead of engaging with the issues at hand, for most of the debate Trump came across as if he were a child being scolded. He was defensive and struggled to present a coherent argument, giving the impression of someone who was not only out of their depth but also unable to handle the pressure of being challenged.

    How the right is reacting:

    Jail the moderators and network executives!

    Harris wore a secret microphone so "they" or (((they))) or could tell her what to say

    She used witchcraft. No really.



  16. #16
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC Consul
    Moderator Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus spy of the council Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,584
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I have the exact opposite impression. I think that Biden and by extension Harris represent a sort of unipolar Clintonian America, a global hegemon that needs to compromise over nothing and effectively reigns over the world via its 'rules-based order'. Trump's approach seems to be more withdrawn in international matters, more interested in 'deals' and that seems to me to be closer to the current reality of declining American power as the so called global south is increasing its reach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    ^I agree with Alastor there. Trump doesn't seem to care about the US not being what it was after ww2. Whether that is a good thing or not, is another subject, but US dominating no longer is realistic (apart from having Eu as a vassal, which is realistic).
    It is indeed and that's part of the tragedy of Trump, that's why I said "or pretends to" and referred to some Americans' ignorance with regards to foreign reality.. there's a lot of confusion around what his real goals are and his supporters are more and more seeing him as a legendary hero, to be loved no matter what. They even made golden statues of him.. oh the irony of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    What does MAGA mean then? is it just a reference to a white America of christian values?
    Make America Great Again

    Yes it took me a while too
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  17. #17
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    16,112
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    A point of view I found interesting, Kamala attacked Trump as a person because that is what his supporters vote for, the figure of the successful, self-made, tough man making fun of his enemies. If she managed to make him look like a sulky nepobaby making up nonsense, good for her.

  18. #18
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    2,751

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    A point of view I found interesting, Kamala attacked Trump as a person because that is what his supporters vote for, the figure of the successful, self-made, tough man making fun of his enemies. If she managed to make him look like a sulky nepobaby making up nonsense, good for her.
    If that was her strategy then that's a bad strategy. It amounts to base pandering and that won't help her. It is important to understand that neither candidate is going to convert the base of the other side to their cause. Trump's supporters will keep supporting him no matter what happens in the debate and the same goes for Harris' supporters. The goal of both candidates therefore should be to convince the few undecided voters, particularly those residing in those 5-6 swing states (like Pennsylvania or Michigan). Frankly their vote, is the only one that really matters. The rest of the country may as well not vote.* The strategy you describe, wouldn't win over those voters.

    * To illustrate this point, there is no chance in heaven or hell that eg California won't go blue. As such, voting there is effectively a waste of resources. Imagine actually trying to convince anyone there via ads etc.

  19. #19
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,271

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    An excellent (in my opinion) Presidential debate analysis. The focus is the shameless bias of the moderators in favour of Harris. ( I'm not pro-Trump. I'm being unbiased, impartial here)

    That Harris/Trump Debate

    I just sat through a recording of the Trump/Harris debate. Ignoring the merits of their political stances, I agree with the general consensus that Kamala Harris “won” in performance terms, but only because Trump was awful.

    Both were of course terrible on Palestine. While I appreciate that that is of most interest to perhaps a majority of my readers, and that it is a key issue for a significant slice of US voters, it is not what this post is about. I am considering more broadly the prospects for who becomes US President.
    Trump’s ability to make a coherent argument appears to have deserted him and he was easily sidetracked by Harris into irrelevant quibbles, notably on rally attendances.
    While Harris said nothing even vaguely impressive herself, and was wide open to attack on her own record, Trump did not seem sufficiently in command of the logic of debate effectively to counterpunch.
    I suspect that the debate will have done very little to affect public support, because Trump’s attack messages on immigration will motivate his followers regardless, and he kept banging then out.

    But I wanted to focus in on the shameless bias of the moderators in favour of Harris. The framing of questions to each candidate was far more hostile towards Trump.

    Let me take the first four questions asked, two to each candidate:
    David Muir to Trump:
    “Mr President, I do want to drill down on something you both brought up. The Vice President brought up your tariffs, you responded, and let’s drill down on this. Because your plan, it is what she calls, it is essentially, a national sales tax. Your proposal calls for tariffs, as you pointed out here, on foreign imports across the board. You recently said that you might double your plan imposing tariffs of 20% on goods coming into this country. As you know many economists say that with tariffs at that level, costs are then passed on to the consumer. Vice President Harris has said it will mean higher prices on gas, food, clothing, medication, arguing it will cost the typical family nearly 4,000 dollars a year. Do you believe Americans can afford higher prices because of tariffs.”


    Note what is happening here. Muir twice quotes Harris and validates her assertion that a tariff is a sales tax: “it is what she calls, it is essentially, a national sales tax”. He then quotes Harris again on it costing American families $4,000 a year. His question then to Trump is not framed as whether he agrees with Harris’s assertion, but the much more loaded question of “Do you believe Americans can afford higher prices?”

    I am in general inclined towards free trade myself, but a tariff is not simply a sales tax, and the $4,000 a year claim is utter nonsense.

    The average US household spends only about 11% of its consumption on imported goods. That equates to about $8,000 worth of imported goods per household per year.
    Even if Trump were to slap a 20% tariff on all imported goods – which is not his plan – and even if all those goods currently enjoyed zero tariff – which is certainly not the case – and even if there were no import substitution and the entire cost was passed on to the consumer – neither of which would be the case, it plainly is not remotely possible that a 20% tariff on part of $8,000 of spending could cost $4,000.


    But whereas various nonsenses spouted by Trump were “fact-checked” by the moderators, Harris’s completely clueless propaganda was endorsed and reinforced.

    Trump however ought to have been able to counter by talking of the purpose of promoting domestic production and encouraging domestic industry and agriculture. His inability to do so – and indeed to counterpunch with logical refutation on anything – made this deeply unsatisfying watching.

    Lindsey David to Trump

    “I want to turn to the issue of abortion. President Trump you have often touted that you were able to kill Roe v Wade last year. You said that you were proud to be the most pro-life President in American history. Then last month you said that your administration would be great for women and their reproductive rights. In your home state of Florida you surprised many with regard to your six-week abortion ban because you initially said that it was too short and said (quote) “I am going to be voting that we need more than six weeks”. But then the very next day you reversed course and said that you would vote to support the six-week ban. Vice President Harris says that women should not trust you on the issue of abortion because you have changed your position so many times. Therefore why should they trust you?”

    Note the aggression in the phrasing of this question, and the use of the negative connotation verb “touting” in the setup. Also throwing in of amplifier phrases… “the very next day”.

    Now contrast the tone with the superficially “combative” questions to challenge Harris

    David Muir to Harris:

    “We are going to turn now to immigration and border security. We know it’s an issue to Republicans, Democrats, voters across the board in this country. Vice President Harris, you were tasked by President Biden with getting to the root causes of migration from Central America. We know that illegal border crossings reached a high in the Biden administration. This past June President Biden passed tough new asylum restrictions. We know the numbers since then have dropped significantly. But my question to you tonight is why did the administration wait until six months before the election to act, and would you have done anything differently from President Biden on this?”

    This is fascinating because plainly the intention is to appear to be tackling Harris, while the entire framing of the question is slanted to favour her.

    The characterisation of Harris’s role is precisely the framing of her campaign team: she was not in charge of border control or immigrant policy, but rather of tackling “the root causes” of immigration. This is exactly how Harris wants it put, but not really true.
    Furthermore the problem is presented as essentially solved, again an extremely dubious proposition, and the question is basically – why did it take you so long?

    After a couple of exchanges between the candidates Muir leapt in to interject and reinforce a point already made by Kamala Harris:
    David Muir:
    “President Trump on that point I am going to invite your response”

    Trump:
    “Well I would like to respond”

    David Muir:
    “Let me just ask though, why did you try to kill that bill, and successfully do so, that would have put thousands of extra agents on the border?

    Let us then look at the framing of another “challenging” question to Harris:
    Lindsey David to Harris:
    Vice President Harris, in your last run for President you said you wanted to ban fracking, now you don’t. You wanted mandatory buyback programmes for assault weapons, now your campaign says you don’t. You supported decriminalising border crossings, now you are taking a harder line. I know you say that your values have not changed, so then why have so many of your policy positions changed?

    Note how, with both questions to Harris, the answer is provided within the question. The immigration question was presented as solved and the flip flop question as reflecting consistent values. Harris did grab on to the proffered lifeline and banged on about her values as a “middle class kid”, and all the hard luck cases she claimed to have been inspired to help.


    On Palestine, naturally both vied to present themselves as the staunchest supporters of Israel. Kamala Harris did genuflect towards protection of Palestinian civilians and the Palestinian right of self-determination, but this was so obviously a token gesture from Israel’s chief armers and funders as to not need further comment.

    All in all, extremely dispiriting. Harris came over as an entirely unprincipled political operator who will adopt whatever positions serve her career, but is rather more intellectually competent than previously expected. Trump came over as a loose cannon which nobody has loaded.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 12, 2024 at 10:57 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  20. #20
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    2,751

    Default Re: Trump / Harris Debate 10th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The focus is the shameless bias of the moderators in favour of Harris.
    As well it should. I saw the debate live and that was one of my key takeaways. One would have to be both blind and deaf not to notice the ridiculous bias of the moderators. When the MAGA camp says this was a 3 against 1, it is one of those few times they aren't in the least exaggerating. This was an embarrassment for ABC and for mainstream media. As if the clear and relentless pro-Harris bias from the moment she was anointed wasn't noticeable enough, they couldn't even restrain themselves for the debate. It is actually rather ironic, that this might be what redeems Trump after he failed to deliver in the debate. If the message of media bias resonates with independents and the MAGA camp drives that point home successfully, this debate may end up being an unexpected win for Trump where it counts.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •