The imminent disaster which is going to be the American elections

[Alastor]

You are back-projecting from the acts of one person whose motives remain unclear. By this reasoning, if I complain to a waiter about my soup being cold, I would bear some responsibility if some lunatic overhearing me decided to murder him for it. It's a position without intellectual merit. Demonisation can lead to violence, yes, but that does not mean an act of violence is somehow proof of demonisation and it's the latter argument you are actually making.

Actually, I don't care about that person's individual motive all that much, because it doesn't change all that much. The argument that demonisation leads to violence stands on its own, irrespectively of that. As for your comparison, it's apples and oranges. If you complain about your soup being cold and you are a nobody, then nobody cares. But if you happen to have a following of millions and then take to twitter doxxing the waiter and calling him a menace to society and the worst thing that ever happened to this world again and again, then yes you can be held morally responsible for when your millions of followers start harassing that person, or worse. If you don't think that this position has intellectual merit then I question your definition of both intellectual and merit. Finally, you clearly don't understand my argument. Where did I say that an act of violence is proof of demonisation? The demonisation of Trump is a fact by itself already, it exists, we can all see it, unless we are wearing DNC blinders that is. My argument is that demonisation leads to violence. And that's not exactly a difficult connection to comprehend.

[irontaino]

That is correct, we can't possibly know how he would react to such an event.

This is just pure grade A Colombian copium. We know how he reacts when bad things happen to his political opponents, and can make a judgement based on his past behavior.

Even Trump can pay lip service to decorum from time to time.

When has he played lip service to decorum when something unfortunate befalls a political enemy of his?

Or are you telling me Biden really meant what he said when not two days later he is saying the same things he was saying earlier about Trump being a threat to democracy etc.

Why not? I don't seem to recall him ever calling for Trump's assassination.

In other words, I just hit a nerve.

Nah, you just didn't say anything is all.

The accusation that Trump is personally racist is one I don't really believe. He certainly has acted along at times for political gain but that's another story.

Birther, nuff said. We can also go all the way back to him and his father refusing to rent properties to black people.

Him being a conman, the answer is simple too, he's a billionaire, of course he has taken advantage of people. At least by being rich already, maybe he doesn't need to take advantage of people that much while in office in order to get rich.

"The wealthy can't be corrupt, they already have enough money." - Alastor. Guess we're just gonna ignore him pouring taxpayer money into his resorts and properties.

See Biden and his infamous connections to Ukraine for example.

You mean that example that famously turned up literally nothing?

As for riots and collusion etc those are nothingburgers and it's time for the Democrats to move away from that.

The riot and Ukraine scandal got him impeached. The problem was that Republicans have, since the Obama era, forgotten how to do their jobs and their entire party is now based on groveling for Trump.

I didn't miss it. It was simply overshadowed by all the adulation and love Obama received (and is still receiving) from most media and in most circles.

I don't remember people acting like Obama was the second coming, nor do I remember people throwing random boat and car parades for him. Also, then and now, Obama supporters have always been capable of criticizing him, unlike the MAGA crowd.

Why don't you show me a "serious" outlet calling Obama the anti-Christ? I'm not saying that hysterics haven't existed basically always, but the scale that Trump has had to face. Nah. And if your assertion is Obama faced anything near it, you really need to stop huffing the Dem copium. It's addling your brain.[

One, I showed how widespread the belief was. Two, I like how that's the thing you zeroed in on, ignoring the Republicans refusing to do their jobs to try and make Obama a one term president, nor the challenge to his citizenship that Republicans have directly/indirectly supported by electing the biggest fanatic of that conspiracy. Dems have had plenty of reason to be anti-Trump from the get-go. With Republicans, the anti-Obama vitriol just came from cognitive dissonance.

PS Interestingly enough Obama is when the Democratic party lost my support. Specifically his handling of the aftermath of the 2008 recession, which I consider to be catastrophic. But that's another story, for another time.

You mean the economic recovery that happened and that Trump inherited?

[Alastor]

You mean the economic recovery that happened and that Trump inherited?

lolwut? Ok, ok, I get it. This discussion won't go anywhere, not when I inhabit the real world and you inhabit DNC la la land.

[irontaino]

lolwut? Ok, ok, I get it. This discussion won't go anywhere, not when I inhabit the real world and you inhabit DNC la la land.

Concession accepted.

[Alastor]

Concession accepted.

The only thing I have conceded is that you are deluded. You want to waste someone's time, pick someone else.

[Muizer]

Actually, I don't care about that person's individual motive all that much, because it doesn't change all that much. The argument that demonisation leads to violence stands on its own, irrespectively of that. As for your comparison, it's apples and oranges. If you complain about your soup being cold and you are a nobody, then nobody cares. But if you happen to have a following of millions and then take to twitter doxxing the waiter and calling him a menace to society and the worst thing that ever happened to this world again and again, then yes you can be held morally responsible for when your millions of followers start harassing that person, or worse. If you don't think that this position has intellectual merit then I question your definition of both intellectual and merit. Finally, you clearly don't understand my argument. Where did I say that an act of violence is proof of demonisation? The demonisation of Trump is a fact by itself already, it exists, we can all see it, unless we are wearing DNC blinders that is. My argument is that demonisation leads to violence. And that's not exactly a difficult connection to comprehend.

Right, forgive me for assuming that the assassination attempt had anything to do with your argument. I think reading back you will see where I got that misguided idea from though.

As for the demonisation of Trump, I don't think calling him a threat to democracy counts. That's a statement of fact based on some of the things he has done. Did he not asking Georgia election officials to 'find him some votes'? Did he not asking Mike Pence not to ratify Biden's election? That alone is already quite enough you know?

[Alastor]

Right, forgive me for assuming that the assassination attempt had anything to do with your argument. I think reading back you will see where I got that misguided idea from though.

As for the demonisation of Trump, I don't think calling him a threat to democracy counts. That's a statement of fact based on some of the things he has done. Did he not asking Georgia election officials to 'find him some votes'? Did he not asking Mike Pence not to ratify Biden's election? That alone is already quite enough you know?

Can you drop the snide and debate in good faith, or is that beyond you? If it is, let me know, I'd rather not waste more of my time on this. Now, the reason I'm saying that I don't particularly care about that specific individual's motive is because I believe if it wasn't him, it would be someone else. The political atmosphere in the US is explosive and Trump has been indeed demonised. If that particular person wasn't motivated by that demonisation, though I personally believe he was, another would be assassin would.

No, I don't actually know. And personally I do find that the way the US elections happen involves a few shenanigans too many. That last one in particular is extra suspect. I mean in the US they're still debating whether IDs should be required when voting ffs. But whatever the case may be, the arguments you are making here are at least weak. So he asked Georgia to find him some more votes. Maybe he was pleading, maybe he was saying double check, it's very easy to misconstrue words and take them out of context and there is a rich history of the press doing exactly that with Trump. As for what he asked Pence... says who? Pence? The other side has said they only asked for a pause. I wasn't there and I as sure as hell don't trust Pence further than I can throw him to take his word over anything. Do you? As such, I am content to say I don't rightly know what was discussed behind closed doors. I do know though that Trump has not been convicted of anything relating to January 6, despite repeated efforts, and I do know the Democrats turned what was obviously a riot, into civil war redux. And that tells me to be extra cautious with their claims. Maybe you should do the same.

[Mithradates]

Biden says he will stand down, and not run for reelection.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[irontaino]

One less senile old man in the race.

[Legio_Italica]

Just goes to show the powers that be have no clue what they are doing and that should scare people more than the realization that your vote is mostly a formality. The liberal establishment insisted Biden is “the sharpest guy in the room” for years, and rumors of his failing health and cognitive decline were nothing but Russian disinfo peddled by Nazis.

Suddenly they decide they can’t hide it anymore and coup their own candidate and the sitting POTUS by humiliating him on live TV and forcing him out. To add insult to injury, they have him endorse someone who didn’t even make it to the primary in 2020. Within moments of Biden’s announcement, the media is cranked into overdrive to let the world know anyone who doesn’t vote for Kamala is racist and sexist.

North Korea makes more sophisticated propaganda than this. If the liberal establishment were accountable to an executive board or shareholders, they’d all be fired and sued by now. No wonder our enemies figured out now’s a good time to do invasions and attack global shipping and whatnot. Peak clown world.

[PointOfViewGun]

Who is this liberal establishment person doing all that?

[irontaino]

Just goes to show the powers that be have no clue what they are doing and that should scare people more than the realization that your vote is mostly a formality. The liberal establishment insisted Biden is “the sharpest guy in the room” for years, and rumors of his failing health and cognitive decline were nothing but Russian disinfo peddled by Nazis.

Suddenly they decide they can’t hide it anymore and coup their own candidate and the sitting POTUS by humiliating him on live TV and forcing him out. To add insult to injury, they have him endorse someone who didn’t even make it to the primary in 2020. Within moments of Biden’s announcement, the media is cranked into overdrive to let the world know anyone who doesn’t vote for Kamala is racist and sexist.

North Korea makes more sophisticated propaganda than this. If the liberal establishment were accountable to an executive board or shareholders, they’d all be fired and sued by now. No wonder our enemies figured out now’s a good time to do invasions and attack global shipping and whatnot. Peak clown world.

Is the liberal establishment in the room with us right now?

[Legio_Italica]

I suppose that depends on the company you keep. Me, I tend to rely on public information.

[Laser101]

Just goes to show the powers that be have no clue what they are doing and that should scare people more than the realization that your vote is mostly a formality. The liberal establishment insisted Biden is “the sharpest guy in the room” for years, and rumors of his failing health and cognitive decline were nothing but Russian disinfo peddled by Nazis.

Suddenly they decide they can’t hide it anymore and coup their own candidate and the sitting POTUS by humiliating him on live TV and forcing him out. To add insult to injury, they have him endorse someone who didn’t even make it to the primary in 2020. Within moments of Biden’s announcement, the media is cranked into overdrive to let the world know anyone who doesn’t vote for Kamala is racist and sexist.

North Korea makes more sophisticated propaganda than this. If the liberal establishment were accountable to an executive board or shareholders, they’d all be fired and sued by now. No wonder our enemies figured out now’s a good time to do invasions and attack global shipping and whatnot. Peak clown world.

That's not a coup, that's just a party changing nominee, which they can do. Here in Australia parties regularly oust sitting PMs, never mind changing leaders while out of power (granted, PMs are different to presidents).

[Legio_Italica]

That's not a coup, that's just a party changing nominee, which they can do. Here in Australia parties regularly oust sitting PMs, never mind changing leaders while out of power (granted, PMs are different to presidents).

I intended to convey the term in a strategic sense rather than what Trump was accused of on Jan 6th, but the situation does also carry elements of the latter a democratic sense. The American people have known for years Biden is in serious cognitive if not also physical decline. His staff and inner circle have known better than anyone just how bad the whole time, but it was kept “hidden” from the country until the last few weeks. Not before the 2020 primary, when the DNC colluded to ensure his nomination, nor before the 2024 primary, when Democrats voted to pick their leader.

Instead, Biden’s replacement will be chosen at the eleventh hour by a handful of elites at the convention, many of whom are the same donors and insiders who forced the rank and file’s chosen candidate off the ticket. Whether that’s just an unexpected strategic development, or also something of plot to overthrow the current and would-be future POTUS, we’ll never know for sure. All we can say is the donor class and Party elites made him President, and now they’ve unmade him.

[conon394]

I intended to convey the term in a strategic sense rather than what Trump was accused of on Jan 6th, but the situation does also carry elements of the latter a democratic sense. The American people have known for years Biden is in serious cognitive if not also physical decline. His staff and inner circle have known better than anyone just how bad the whole time, but it was kept “hidden” from the country until the last few weeks. Not before the 2020 primary, when the DNC colluded to ensure his nomination, nor before the 2024 primary, when Democrats voted to pick their leader.

What conclusion in 2020? I think you are thinking of 2016

Instead, Biden’s replacement will be chosen at the eleventh hour by a handful of elites at the convention, many of whom are the same donors and insiders who forced the rank and file’s chosen candidate off the ticket.

No the fact that 60-70% of democrats thought Biden was too old and the debate prove that.

chosen at the eleventh hour by a handful of elites at the convention

No that was going to happen its Harris and will stay Harris there is not a viable alternative.

All we can say is the donor class and Party elites made him President, and now they’ve unmade him.

That is not an accurate description.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

So there is only Sleepy Don left.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I wonder, if the Reps as soon as it is clear that it will be Harris start a "she's not american" campaign against her?

[conon394]

Obama Birth ism had years and tears behind it. I'm sure will and it play to there base easy enough But they probably don't have to make it a thing for people who are not Fox and more right news outlets.

[Legio_Italica]

What conclusion in 2020? I think you are thinking of 2016

Candidates voiced the same concerns in 2020, and given the track record, they are credible.

No the fact that 60-70% of democrats thought Biden was too old and the debate prove that.

Democrats polled last year said the same thing by 10-15 points. The Party has gaslit the country for years and Biden was under no obligation to do debates. They knew he was going to face plant like he always does and he was set up anyway. If they cared what voters think they would have forced him out before the primary. Either the Admin is too incompetent to keep the lie going and ran out of road, or the timing was planned to ensure a transition to a safe candidate and avoid extremist voters in their base. In any case, Biden was voted the nominee and the elites forced him out.

[conon394]

Candidates voiced the same concerns in 2020, and given the track record, they are credible.

Democrats polled last year said the same thing by 10-15 points. The Party has gaslit the country for years and Biden was under no obligation to do debates. They knew he was going to face plant like he always does and he was set up anyway. If they cared what voters think they would have forced him out before the primary. Either the Admin is too incompetent to keep the lie going and ran out of road, or the timing was planned to ensure a transition to a safe candidate and avoid extremist voters in their base. In any case, Biden was voted the nominee and the elites forced him out.

That post has real arguments

Democrats polled last year said the same thing by 10-15 points.

First you are conflating voter in Democratic Primaries who vote and just on the election democrats, and independents such that are left or moderate republicans who switch if they despise of fear Trump again not many in deed The fact is the Latter are for far more likely to act on their worries than Primary voters. The election hangs on5 flip states at a few percentage points.

The Party has gaslit the country for years

You offer no proof of that just assertion. Its simple enough to go back and look at say the re light speech and compare to the debates 0f 2023. Compare them to the Trump debate and Biden clearly suffered rapid decline which at his age and under the pressure of Presidency is very probable.

In any case, Biden was voted the nominee and the elites forced him out

He resigned why is more complex. One does not like to realize you not be the man you were in 2020. Parties are parties they are not perfection of the US republic nor Ancient Athens. Yous say desiring to conjure up a small star chamber but the pressure was coming from across the whole body of the democratic party

If they cared what voters think they would have forced him out before the primary.

Clearly there was no consensus and thus no action. It was Biden's performance again Trump almost old and often far more incoherent that clearly forged the consensus. The scale of both large and small donation after the debate indat democrats in general were holding their breath for the Debate and were expecting the Joe of say 3 years ago but were shocked.