The imminent disaster which is going to be the American elections

[Legio_Italica]

It doesn't need to push "normal people" over the edge to become assassins. It only needs to push a couple of would-be yahoos into bona fide yahoo territory. A far easier task. I don't rightly know if the demonisation claim will work, not with all the pushback its getting from anti-Trumpers. I'm just saying it should work, because it's true.

First the liberal establishment tried to convince the country Trump is a Russian agent and the 2016 election was rigged. Then they pivoted to impeachment. Then they claimed he tried to do a coup/civil war. Then they tried to throw him in jail. Now they’ve finally succeeded in inciting someone to methodically get into position with a rifle and shoot him and kill one of his supporters in plain view of his security detail, police and several onlookers. Where do they go from here? Biden is brain dead and it’s too late to replace him. The left is in shambles. The media are already hard at work reminding everyone Trump and his supporters are a grave threat to the country. But nothing works. Through it all, the man and the candidate looks strong right now. Desperate times for the powers that be can’t mean anything good for the rest of us. There’s no telling what they’ll try next.

[PointOfViewGun]

Trump an his camp are the embodiment of projection...

Trump accidentally proves that the Clinton campaign wasn’t the driving force of the Russia probe

The startling thing wasn’t that line, an attempt to make utterly run-of-the-mill political-campaign activity seem nefarious. It was, instead, that as Trump and his lawyers were trying to make a case for how the investigation into possible links between Trump’s 2016 campaign and Russia were a product of a conspiracy helmed by Hillary Clinton and her aides, they were citing these particular documents.

If you were just reading the lawsuit, you would learn that the internal discussions were revealed “after the DNC servers were hacked by an individual using the name ‘Guccifer 2.0.’ ” If, however, you were at all conscious during the period from June 2016 to, say, last week, you would recognize that the actual source of those documents was that they were stolen by hackers working for Russia. The investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election demonstrated that pretty robustly, including finding examples of hackers in Russia searching for translations of phrases that are later used by “Guccifer” in blog posts. This was part of the broader effort to aid Trump’s election that November.

In other words, as Trump and his lawyers were trying to prove that Clinton was the driving force behind the investigation into Russian interference, they were relying on documents released as part of that interference effort. It’s some mixture of dishonest and galling — and it’s not even the most ridiculous part of the case the lawsuit tries to make.

[Coughdrop addict]

For decades the right has pushed the idea that everything mainstream media says happened is all lies, shootings are all faked to take away guns, and absolutely nothing is what it appears to be. Now they are shocked that the kind of delusional conspiracism they bred has come back to bite them with people immediately assuming that this is all "faked" with "crisis actors". It's like the boy who cried wolf in reverse.

[Muizer]

It doesn't need to push "normal people" over the edge to become assassins. It only needs to push a couple of would-be yahoos into bona fide yahoo territory.

Politicians, and opinion makers in general, cannot be held accountable for the actions of crazy people. If they'd have to consider what some lunatic could imagine they'd want them to do, that would be the end of all public discussion. So yeah, for 'demonization' to be blamed for something, it would actually have to be pretty explicit about that something.

[Alastor]

He did however, mock Paul Pelosi getting attacked. With that, we can make an educated guess that he would also be openly mocking Biden or Harris if the situation were reversed.

There is no comparison between the two. So your educated guess needs to go straight back to school. The would be assassin of Trump committed what arguably was the greatest attack on American democracy in quite a while. Yet I hear in the news people still bleating about January 6 and calling Trump and his followers the true threat, rather than act with some decorum and dignity following this event. Those partisans aren't winning any independent over like that, let me tell you that much at least.

Politicians, and opinion makers in general, cannot be held accountable for the actions of crazy people. If they'd have to consider what some lunatic could imagine they'd want them to do, that would be the end of all public discussion. So yeah, for 'demonization' to be blamed for something, it would actually have to be pretty explicit about that something.

I don't agree. I'm obviously not saying that politicians should be held legally accountable for any of that, because it is indeed that yahoo that did what he did. But when you can see that things are extremely volatile, dangerous even and rather than calling for unity and trying to defuse the situation, you make it worse then you can't pretend you had nothing to do with it after the fact. Morally at least you bear some responsibility. Leaders are accountable to their people for their actions and that includes their speech. When only a few days ago Biden was calling Trump the greatest threat to democracy and how it's time put him in the "bullseye" that's him acting irresponsibly. At this point I hope that him and his cadre get punished in the ballot box for their, not insignificant, role in this. As he half-heartedly and belatedly said, violence has no place in a democracy. But demonisation leads to violence.

[Kyriakos]

Both sides suck terribly, tbh. And I don't like how they make it to be about divine intervention either - but all US politicians pay lip service to the church etc.

[Alastor]

Both sides suck terribly, tbh. And I don't like how they make it to be about divine intervention either - but all US politicians pay lip service to the church etc.

I agree. But both sides don't suck equally. And at this point in time I think the Biden side sucks more. At least Trump showed incredible strength in the face of lethal danger. Biden has shown he can't go up the stairs, he can't speak and he can't think.

On the other hand, it's not like there are no other options. There is RFK for example, who Biden denied secret service protection to for... reasons. If Americans can't bring themselves to vote for 3rd parties that's on them for enabling the 2-party system.

[PointOfViewGun]

With all that strength, Trump picked a VP who wants to give more voting rights to parents. Strength is good and useful when it's placed in the right direction. When it goes retard, no.

[irontaino]

There is no comparison between the two. So your educated guess needs to go straight back to school.

Between that and examples Trump mocking a political opponent dying of cancer and continuously attacking him after death it means we can gauge his reaction, no matter what copium you're huffing.

The would be assassin of Trump committed what arguably was the greatest attack on American democracy in quite a while. Yet I hear in the news people still bleating about January 6 and calling Trump and his followers the true threat,

These two things are not mutually exclusive, except unlike J6...the majority of Democrats aren't celebrating

rather than act with some decorum and dignity following this event. Those partisans aren't winning any independent over like that, let me tell you that much at least.

Decorum and dignity...see examples presented, have you ever actually heard Donald Trump speak? Those are two things the GOP dropped during the Obama years.

[Alastor]

Between that and examples Trump mocking a political opponent dying of cancer and continuously attacking him after death it means we can gauge his reaction, no matter what copium you're huffing.

I'm huffing copium? You are the one comparing an assassination attempt against someone who has half the country behind him, a former president running for president, with all kinds of other things that are simply not equivalents. I never said Trump hasn't been petty, but I have said you can't gauge how he would react at the face of such an event because only one such event has happened in 40 years and he was the target. So keep on going with your false equivalences, you are convincing nobody that isn't already convinced.

These two things are not mutually exclusive, except unlike J6...the majority of Democrats aren't celebrating

Indeed, arguably because the shooter missed.

Decorum and dignity...see examples presented, have you ever actually heard Donald Trump speak? Those are two things the GOP dropped during the Obama years.

It's a good thing that once GOP dropped them, the Dems picked them up... oh wait.

Trump was duly elected president in 2016 and immediately was subjected to the worst subversion political campaign I have witnessed in American politics. He is a Russian spy. No he sold nuclear secrets to China. No he is a pedophilic, gynophobic rapist. No, he is an insurrectionist. No, he is a criminal. No, he is Hitler. Endless character assassinations, non-stop judicial persecution and most recently an actual assassination attempt. GOP did that? Name one time in history that GOP has managed to level half that against a Dem president. You need to understand the Dems have no leg to stand on and until they realize that they have no future. I am not a Republican supporter, I have never been supportive of a single Republican nominee in my life so far and still I can see the Dems have dropped the ball big time.

[Legio_Italica]

Both sides suck terribly, tbh. And I don't like how they make it to be about divine intervention either - but all US politicians pay lip service to the church etc.

It’s not ideal, but as someone who has faced death myself, it’s a relatable reaction. Experiencing something like that, especially under circumstances where a slight turn of the head would have produced a very different outcome, it’s difficult not to engage in a religious level of introspection. I can only hope it doesn’t go to his head, but this is Trump we’re talking about. My primary reservation against the man was always that his bravado and bombast suggests insecurity and weakness. But you can tell alot about a person by how they confront their end. What I saw last weekend convinced me his irrational and relentless self confidence is a genuine strength.

For decades the right has pushed the idea that everything mainstream media says happened is all lies, shootings are all faked to take away guns, and absolutely nothing is what it appears to be. Now they are shocked that the kind of delusional conspiracism they bred has come back to bite them with people immediately assuming that this is all "faked" with "crisis actors". It's like the boy who cried wolf in reverse.

I can only assume you’re referring to the lib left cope about Trump staging his own assassination attempt? Or are you responding to the Wapo “journalism” dredging up a non-sequitur about how the Democrats’ proven efforts to conceal their role in concocting the Russiagate narrative wasn’t the “driving force” behind it because we’re not supposed to know about their discussions on the matter?

[AqD]

For decades the right has pushed the idea that everything mainstream media says happened is all lies, shootings are all faked to take away guns, and absolutely nothing is what it appears to be. Now they are shocked that the kind of delusional conspiracism they bred has come back to bite them with people immediately assuming that this is all "faked" with "crisis actors". It's like the boy who cried wolf in reverse.

You can't actually take away guns.

You can ban them and penalize anyone who own them.

People who don't give a about laws would still have guns, and the ratio of such people would increase drastically if an unpopular firearm ban is passed. The only way to really ban guns is to brainwasheducate the population so they accept it willingly.

Anyway the more immediate problem is that after decades of hate-gun propaganda the dem supporters have become such poor shots they can't hit after 8 unobstructed attempts from a perfect spot. If a civil war breaks now they'd lose overnight.

[Coughdrop addict]

It’s not ideal, but as someone who has faced death myself, it’s a relatable reaction. Experiencing something like that, especially under circumstances where a slight turn of the head would have produced a very different outcome, it’s difficult not to engage in a religious level of introspection. I can only hope it doesn’t go to his head, but this is Trump we’re talking about.

Narcissists are incapable of introspection. I can almost guarantee his only thought was getting the perfect photo-op.

My primary reservation against the man was always that his bravado and bombast suggests insecurity and weakness. But you can tell alot about a person by how they confront their end. What I saw last weekend convinced me his irrational and relentless self confidence is a genuine strength.

Yes, mocking the disabled reporter was just so strong.

"I got screwed out of an Emmy. Everybody thought I was going to win it. In fact, when they announced the winner, I stood up before the winner was announced. And I started walking for the Emmy. And then they announced the most boring show on television, 'The Amazing Race.' Piece of crap." -- Trump

Trump is not strong, he is a bully and crybaby. He puts down others to make himself feel better. He's jealous and wants all the attention. He acts tough, but inside, he's afraid and insecure.

I can only assume you’re referring to the lib left cope about Trump staging his own assassination attempt? Or are you responding to the Wapo “journalism” dredging up a non-sequitur about how the Democrats’ proven efforts to conceal their role in concocting the Russiagate narrative wasn’t the “driving force” behind it because we’re not supposed to know about their discussions on the matter?

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/90361...-2016-election

A GOP-led Senate panel released a report Tuesday that details extensive contacts between Trump campaign advisers and Russian intelligence in 2016.

Feel free to read the full 1000 page report at senate.gov. Or continue to bury your head in the sand of comforting Russia propaganda at wikileaks.

Trump's coordination with Russia is well documented beyond the senate report, as confirmed by the NSA, the FBI and the CIA. Even Mueller's Report documented it, despite Barr's intentional rewrite and redaction of unclassified parts.

6 Trump Campaign officials were convicted of lying about their contacts with known Russian agents. Four of them, Stone, Manafort, Gates and Van Der Swan were in direct personal contact with the same team of Russian agents that hacked the DNC in the 2016 election. Explain to me how those facts constitute a hoax?

The fact is that Trump and his campaign welcomed Russian help, sought it out, and promised to use the powers of the presidency to reward it. The missing top secret documents Trump stole were likely part of that payment.

[Legio_Italica]

The fact is that Trump and his campaign welcomed Russian help, sought it out, and promised to use the powers of the presidency to reward it. The missing top secret documents Trump stole were likely part of that payment.

If that’s your assessment, perhaps you should reread the report you referenced. Or call the FBI, because you must be a better investigator than the agents who spent years digging for anything to substantiate your assertions here without success.

“Indeed, based on the evidence gathered in the multiple exhaustive and costly federal investigations of these matters, including the instant investigation, neither U.S. law enforcement nor the Intelligence Community appears to have possessed any actual evidence of collusion.”

Simple as.

[PointOfViewGun]

One of the questions I asked earlier, why the Secret Service did not cover the rooftop, was recently answered by the Secret Service chief:

Secret Service Chief: Trump Shooter’s Sloped Roof Left Unmanned Due to Safety Concerns

Secret Service Director Kimberly Cheatle addressed one of the central mysteries in the attempted assassination of former President Donald Trump: how Thomas Matthew Crooks was able to climb onto the top of a nearby building and have a clear sightline to Trump without being stopped. A Secret Service sniper shot and killed the suspected gunman just moments after he fired multiple rounds. Trump was grazed in the ear and a rally-goer was killed.


In an interview with ABC News, Cheatle said: “That building in particular has a sloped roof at its highest point. And so, you know, there's a safety factor that would be considered there that we wouldn't want to put somebody up on a sloped roof.” She added “the decision was made to secure the building from inside.”

The rooftop where two Secret Service snipers were positioned to the right of Trump was also sloped, if not more than the one the shooter was on. So, the chief is basically lying about the reasoning. That's a fact now.




Sniper took picture of Trump rally shooter, saw him use rangefinder before assassination attempt, source says

A sniper from a local tactical team deployed to assist the U.S. Secret Service at former President Donald Trump's rally on Saturday took a picture of the gunman and saw him looking through a rangefinder minutes before he tried to assassinate the former president, a local law enforcement officer with direct knowledge of the events told CBS News.

One sniper inside spotted the gunman, Thomas Matthew Crooks, outside and looking up at the roof, observing the building and disappearing, according to the officer who spoke to CBS News. The sniper observed Crooks as he returned to the building, sat down and looked at his phone. At that point, one of the local snipers took a picture of Crooks.

Next, the local sniper observed Crooks looking through a rangefinder, an instrument routinely used by marksmen to determine the distance of a target, and he immediately radioed to the command post, according to the local law enforcement officer. The local sniper also attempted to send the photo of the gunman up the chain of command.

Two other municipal police officers who heard the call for back-up attempted to climb onto the roof. Butler County Sheriff Michael Sloupe told CBS Pittsburgh station KDKA that an armed municipal officer with Butler Township was hoisted by another officer onto the roof of the building where the gunman had taken a position. Crooks focused his rifle towards the officer who ultimately let go, falling off the roof. Moments later, the shooter began firing into the crowd.

So, they were indeed aware of the shooter minutes before the attack which also sort of answers my second question. There was definitely a lot of time for snipers to either cover the rooftop or escort Trump away from the podium. The other two questions remain.

[Ukiah]

[PointOfViewGun]

If that’s your assessment, perhaps you should reread the report you referenced. Or call the FBI, because you must be a better investigator than the agents who spent years digging for anything to substantiate your assertions here without success.
Simple as.

It is an established fact now that Russia tried to influence the elections in favour of Trump but his campaign was too stupid to make good use of it. Mueller's report provided a lot of evidence for that and the Durham's report doesn't seem to touch any of that.

[irontaino]

I'm huffing copium? You are the one comparing an assassination attempt against someone who has half the country behind him, a former president running for president, with all kinds of other things that are simply not equivalents. I never said Trump hasn't been petty, but I have said you can't gauge how he would react at the face of such an event because only one such event has happened in 40 years and he was the target. So keep on going with your false equivalences, you are convincing nobody that isn't already convinced.

"Sure, Trump has a long and proven track record of being petty and vindictive, but we can't possibly know that he would be petty and vindictive" - Alastor

Indeed, arguably because the shooter missed.

Nothing statement is nothing

Trump was duly elected president in 2016 and immediately was subjected to the worst subversion political campaign I have witnessed in American politics. He is a Russian spy. No he sold nuclear secrets to China. No he is a pedophilic, gynophobic rapist. No, he is an insurrectionist. No, he is a criminal. No, he is Hitler. Endless character assassinations, non-stop judicial persecution and most recently an actual assassination attempt. GOP did that?

Even before going into office, he had a lot going against him, his racism was evident as the loudest... if not leading voice of the birther conspiracy and a long history of being a conman. Once he entered public office, his life came under more scrutiny and more wrongdoing was uncovered, thus the majority of Americans rejected him (lost the popular vote, won the electoral). This isn't even mentioning the chaos and scandals that were rife in his term, from trying to strong arm Ukraine into giving him dirt on his political opponent, to inciting a riot.

Name one time in history that GOP has managed to level half that against a Dem president.

So were you just asleep between 2008 and 2016? Guess you missed when conservatives became so incensed at a black president that the GOP declared as a collective that they wouldn't do their jobs till he was out of office? Then spent his entire presidency stonewalling everything he put forward? Or maybe you missed conservatives far and wide claiming that Obama isn't a US citizen with his successor being, if not the leading voice, certainly the loudest? Or maybe you missed when people declared him the antichrist?

[Alastor]

"Sure, Trump has a long and proven track record of being petty and vindictive, but we can't possibly know that he would be petty and vindictive" - Alastor

That is correct, we can't possibly know how he would react to such an event. Even Trump can pay lip service to decorum from time to time. And this is all the democrats did, a couple of hours of paying lip service. Or are you telling me Biden really meant what he said when not two days later he is saying the same things he was saying earlier about Trump being a threat to democracy etc.

Nothing statement is nothing

In other words, I just hit a nerve.

Even before going into office, he had a lot going against him, his racism was evident as the loudest... if not leading voice of the birther conspiracy and a long history of being a conman. Once he entered public office, his life came under more scrutiny and more wrongdoing was uncovered, thus the majority of Americans rejected him (lost the popular vote, won the electoral). This isn't even mentioning the chaos and scandals that were rife in his term, from trying to strong arm Ukraine into giving him dirt on his political opponent, to inciting a riot.

The accusation that Trump is personally racist is one I don't really believe. He certainly has acted along at times for political gain but that's another story. Him being a conman, the answer is simple too, he's a billionaire, of course he has taken advantage of people. At least by being rich already, maybe he doesn't need to take advantage of people that much while in office in order to get rich. See Biden and his infamous connections to Ukraine for example. As for riots and collusion etc those are nothingburgers and it's time for the Democrats to move away from that.

So were you just asleep between 2008 and 2016? Guess you missed when conservatives became so incensed at a black president that the GOP declared as a collective that they wouldn't do their jobs till he was out of office? Then spent his entire presidency stonewalling everything he put forward? Or maybe you missed conservatives far and wide claiming that Obama isn't a US citizen with his successor being, if not the leading voice, certainly the loudest? Or maybe you missed when people declared him the antichrist?

I didn't miss it. It was simply overshadowed by all the adulation and love Obama received (and is still receiving) from most media and in most circles. Why don't you show me a "serious" outlet calling Obama the anti-Christ? I'm not saying that hysterics haven't existed basically always, but the scale that Trump has had to face. Nah. And if your assertion is Obama faced anything near it, you really need to stop huffing the Dem copium. It's addling your brain.

PS Interestingly enough Obama is when the Democratic party lost my support. Specifically his handling of the aftermath of the 2008 recession, which I consider to be catastrophic. But that's another story, for another time.

[Muizer]

I don't agree. I'm obviously not saying that politicians should be held legally accountable for any of that, because it is indeed that yahoo that did what he did. But when you can see that things are extremely volatile, dangerous even and rather than calling for unity and trying to defuse the situation, you make it worse then you can't pretend you had nothing to do with it after the fact. Morally at least you bear some responsibility. Leaders are accountable to their people for their actions and that includes their speech. When only a few days ago Biden was calling Trump the greatest threat to democracy and how it's time put him in the "bullseye" that's him acting irresponsibly. At this point I hope that him and his cadre get punished in the ballot box for their, not insignificant, role in this. As he half-heartedly and belatedly said, violence has no place in a democracy. But demonisation leads to violence.

You are back-projecting from the acts of one person whose motives remain unclear. By this reasoning, if I complain to a waiter about my soup being cold, I would bear some responsibility if some lunatic overhearing me decided to murder him for it. It's a position without intellectual merit. Demonisation can lead to violence, yes, but that does not mean an act of violence is somehow proof of demonisation and it's the latter argument you are actually making.