[Discussion] Curia future

[AnthoniusII]

Honestly there are already several vibrant TW modding communities on Discord, led by active modders. I don't see much chance of success for a new TWC Discord Modding Offshoot, led by people, which haven't mod since years.

And Med II and Rome I the only flaggships of TWC the rest TW titles in the junk box subfora, which will help TWC to survive?



You need Med II, Rome remastered and Rome Total war together, to even surpass the active steam players of the eleven year old Rome II.

Even Rome Remastered hasn't bring back the glory early days of RTW and thousands of users storming the gates of TWC.

Before thinking about changing the frontend of TWC, inform yourself about TW games and modding in general.

I offered in the past my mod TGC 872-1071 IN THE SERVICE of TWC (all links for downloading it could be lead it TWC) making it more visible to th eyouth that ignores it exist. To do that I asked help from former expirient modders in parts of the mod i have 0 expirience. Some help came but for almost a year no one cares. The Russian site Imperium has an entire culture in modding. They pay eachother to do the work they need. Pity i do not have any money to do so... Some here took my offer as a joke but you said it clearly...MTW2 and Rome I will save some time for TWC to recover. I guess any solutions no matter how despert they are are JOKES for many that supposed they care but in reality they don't give a damn.

[Muizer]

Before thinking about changing the frontend of TWC, inform yourself about TW games and modding in general.

It's always good to inform oneself. At the same time, it's not like there is much to lose.

I guess any solutions no matter how despert they are are JOKES for many that supposed they care but in reality they don't give a damn.

Not doing anything would be a sign we don't give a damn.

PS in practical terms: if we wanted to create some form of back-up of essential data are the admins capable of making a backup of the database or does only the owner have the required permissions?

[alhoon]

Discord and steam workshop are VERY different from a forum where dedicated threads exist and are easily navigatable for hosted mods, or even for single-thread mods, where you can see the discussion from years past.

[Muizer]

Discord and steam workshop are VERY different from a forum where dedicated threads exist and are easily navigatable for hosted mods, or even for single-thread mods, where you can see the discussion from years past.

You mean a forum makes for a better archive / mausoleum. That's probably true.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

So my suggestion is a night of a long knives, but for forums.

[...]

Also, I distinctly recall that vBulletin 4 is very much possible to archive in a WARC. As a static archive with all its forum functionality disabled.
All hosted mods with recoverable files could be uploaded to an external host. I suggest Moddb.

So I'd envisage a forum index something like this:

[...]

My argument back in the day was screen real estate as much as anything else. Breaking each title up into its own section adds a few more centimetres to the index than is needed.

[...]

I think the vBulletin 4 platform doesn't help things, so a more-modern software, better typeface, and other design changes could make it more visually appealing. Also, back in the day forums used to have buffer space on either side of the index, rather than span right across it, so things don't seem to crowded. See all that space in the middle of the screen? That should be on the left, kind of like what you see on the right beneath the poll box. That's just a particular of the skin TWC uses.

I'm sure someone will jump in with "but my favourite section is missing/badly affected by this". Dare I say we have bigger problems than any one section. The goal is to:

- Maximise our assets, which are the early TW titles and their modding communities.
- Support other TW titles & non-TW games as this is still a "gaming forum".
- Promote chat and content creation but also streamline it so it's not such a nightmare to understand for outsiders.
- Preserve the home of niche TWC concepts like Content, Creative Sections and D&D.

There are likely things I cut off the actual index which I didn't bother to put back. Many of them would end up as sub-forums, not as deleted. This is a rough layout, not a proposal, and certainly not a strict one at that. That said, the mock-up could arguably be cut down even further in places. The details aren't relevant at this point in time.

Would this solve all of TWC's problems? No. It probably wouldn't help much, certainly not initially. In fact it would probably alienate some people who are already here. But over time if the site is to continue to exist, the things that are going to bring people here as opposed to other platforms, is the two sections up top. People searching for mods for the two old school TW titles that best allowed for wide-scope modding. Indeed, others may come for some of the other titles, which is great. They might just stay for the Chat, Creative or Debate sections. And maybe someday we'll have a community here again that justifies the existence of a sub-community/awards body like the Curia. Even a pipedream is still a dream!

[...]

intel makes a crucial point about the lack of mobile phone support. That's not solved by this. That needs new software.

So this is a quickish response to both posts in a similar vein. Rethinking the index is far enough beyond the scope of this thread that I'd encourage a new one to pursue it further, but I'm sympathetic that the index is very long and doesn't compliment things much. I do think making the index more navigable is almost secondary to the other things we've been discussing here. It's an issue don't get me wrong but there's a lot of subjectivity in how it's best done and then it needs to run through more eyes in the membership and in staff before anything is finished.

But if a dedicated discussion pops up I'll try to dig up some of my own older index-trimming ideas & mockups which aren't quite as radical as either of these but still massively alter presentation in favor of burying but holding onto things we still support as a general TW site but highlighting what's most valuable. The rest going to archive. It's a fine line between maintaining support for older games but promoting what we do best, vs treating other games as second class citizens and exacerbating the problem in getting a warhammer audience for example.

I wonder what you gents would think of the more saga forum approach being used more broadly: perhaps bundling 'generations' of TW into categories with rome/medieval on top in a hub, newest titles in their own hub (rome 2-3k/pharaoh), saga in its corner, empire-shogun II in its own hub probably near med 2/rome as our second strongest repository, and so on. A fantasy TW category for warhammer although it doesn't fit the mold as cleanly. Games that don't need much real estate would only have as much as Pharaoh or Troy: simply a workshop and modifications as needed (no hosted fora if we don't even host anything, or even hosted within the modifications fora to be simpler). Games where we offer more can expand a bit more and so on. This would curb index length substantially and still be pretty quick to reach our most important areas even if the determination of what games to present next to each other would be a bit arbitrary. Or perhaps the best thing to do on the top level index is to have tw games as its own category and every individual game as a subforum, ie the subtext and people just visit what they're into from there (this would probably take a cleanup of how game forums are structured though to avoid burying stuff too many levels deep).

There's more custom ways to redo the index that I dream about which would reframe this issue completely, but I don't dare think about them in the confines of vbulletin 4. That's the luxury of stuff like xenforo where 'hybrid' landing pages can be explored, and the 'forum tree' with buried subfora is less of a crisis. That's the other balance here, loads of useful stuff but it's too deep. But if you bring it up you end up with too much stuff. I've stalled as of late but I've tried to do a deep dive of mod fora for this reason; shuffling away projects that have nothing to add while signal boosting ones with signs of life or which are at least useful to browse.

DFK, I'd love to chat more about scraping and options there. Moddb is a logical place to upload mods for posterity as intel suggests.

EDIT: Since the front page (twcenter.net) has never been modernised as needed, I would suggest, if Hex is able, to find a way that the domain takes a visitor directly to the forum index (twcenter.net/forums). I remember that being an ACP setting in some forums I ran way back in the day, but might not necessarily be possible here (requiring domain access). The front page is embarrassing and pointless.

I pulled together a list of interesting links recently.

• Dedicated vb scraper - https://github.com/bendrick92/vbulle...raper/releases
• Alternate vb scraper for a different german forum - https://github.com/vizzerdrix55/web-...Bulletin-forum
• A more generic scraper (there are others like it) if push came to shove - https://scrapy.org/
• Side tangent: using an internet archive service - https://archive-it.org/. I've long been interested in expanding wayback machine archiving as another way to ensure site content is not lost to time. It's not what I'd want to depend on and there's no efficient way to mass archive a site through traditional wayback machine (there's an extension to save pages you visit though), but perhaps an inquiry to archive-it wouldn't hurt. It's on the table for me.

Right now my main issue with a scraper is causing load or causing the server to get annoyed and block someone. If the database backup line of thought gets further this may not even be necessary. But we may as well take a look.

Hex cannot affect the landing page of the site, even squid I believe could not make this change. The intent actually was for the articles section to be the overall twc landing page (notice how the home button goes there). But the half-implemented result is what we're stuck with until further notice.

I'm in favour of exploring the option to move to Discord. It will be a big challenge to select, preserve and provide access to the resources accumulated on the forums. And I'm not even sure where we stand from a legal pov in terms of the 'brand' and the site contents. But sticking with forums (either this one or a new one) as the main hub of interaction doesn't seem very promising.

My dream when I was more of a whippersnapper and missed the writing on the wall went something like this: encouraging our assets with everything besides the forum pretty much. Until the forum could be upgraded we still had outcroppings in various directions - discord, wiki are the strongest ones. The articles section is a bit dated but combined with it being one of the last priorities Hex was given + offering a tailor made outlet for news, it's something I'd consider useful if we had the energy to support it. Downloads/mirroring for mods so people have an option besides moddb is still something TWC can provide, though to a limited extent in the era of steam and more generous hosting on moddb.

The life could take place on Discord (and/or the forum for those inclined), a greater focus on the Wiki would explore a newish direction on software that doesn't feel quite as dated and could be easy to restore if the worst happened, andthe forum could be maintained more or less as-is until such a time it's upgraded or just not. This would give TWC flexibility, not force it to abandon the forum component, but also try something a little different which I believe goes underexplored. Our wiki's scope is a bit different from any other project in the total war space that I know of in how it is inclusive of modding for all the games and can be used to find mods, and more besides that. But of course this has never been a wiki community and that's a difficult ask to make of a forum audience. I'm odd because I actually spend as much if not more time on wikis as I do forums.

This is all perhaps too little too late but it's still the best direction I can think of and the most feasible working path, regardless if the site has a second wind of development or it just goes down permanently.

Honestly there are already several vibrant TW modding communities on Discord, led by active modders. I don't see much chance of success for a new TWC Discord Modding Offshoot, led by people, which haven't mod since years.

And Med II and Rome I the only flaggships of TWC the rest TW titles in the junk box subfora, which will help TWC to survive?

[image clipped for brevity]

You need Med II, Rome remastered and Rome Total war together, to even surpass the active steam players of the eleven year old Rome II.

Even Rome Remastered hasn't bring back the glory early days of RTW and thousands of users storming the gates of TWC.

Before thinking about changing the frontend of TWC, inform yourself about TW games and modding in general.

The 'brain drain' in modders + how we appeal to a strictly niche total war audience, missing out on the majority of the actual playerbase is why I think the only organic evolution is through embracing what we can still provide - legacy knowledge/content - and optimizing how we provide that. Embracing newer titles or a wider TW audience is a luxury of us managing to get that far. To expand at all we need services which can woo an already departed base. The floor is open on this.

PS in practical terms: if we wanted to create some form of back-up of essential data are the admins capable of making a backup of the database or does only the owner have the required permissions?

Squid or GED territory, I've made an inquiry for the former.

[Frunk]

Honestly there are already several vibrant TW modding communities on Discord, led by active modders. I don't see much chance of success for a new TWC Discord Modding Offshoot, led by people, which haven't mod since years.

And Med II and Rome I the only flaggships of TWC the rest TW titles in the junk box subfora, which will help TWC to survive?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You need Med II, Rome remastered and Rome Total war together, to even surpass the active steam players of the eleven year old Rome II.

Even Rome Remastered hasn't bring back the glory early days of RTW and thousands of users storming the gates of TWC.

Before thinking about changing the frontend of TWC, inform yourself about TW games and modding in general.

And so what do you propose? The status quo?

The amount of players of each title on Steam isn't relevant to TWC's discussion forums. If it was, we would see relative numbers of posts in each section as we do to active Steam players, would we not?

Titles older than M2TW are serviced by the Steam Workshop for modders and mod players. The older titles don't work that way, hence the still extant need for forums to host and organise mods and mod resources.

I don't think TWC can or should ever hope to compete with Steam, Reddit, Discord, etc. Nor should we strive to be the 'go-to' Total War website. Because we aren't. The post counts of each section clearly demonstrate that.

Discord and steam workshop are VERY different from a forum where dedicated threads exist and are easily navigatable for hosted mods, or even for single-thread mods, where you can see the discussion from years past.

Exactly.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Your aim is making a forum only for a by age natural decreasing userbase, as new copies of RTW and Med II are only sold on Steam in small numbers?

You would only increase the old grumpy user problem because no new blood is pouring in.

But go on this way, you would certainly lose me as user, as i stopped playing Med II or RTW long before 2013, so a forum focussed on those games i don't play and will not play again has no point for me and from a modder perspective i see no sense releasing mods hided in a junk box section.

On topic to the Curia: as long its not disturbing my business with its actions i don't care, i have no affection to it.

[Muizer]

My dream when I was more of a whippersnapper and missed the writing on the wall went something like this: encouraging our assets with everything besides the forum pretty much. Until the forum could be upgraded we still had outcroppings in various directions - discord, wiki are the strongest ones.

I don't think anyone here is thinking of starting over from scratch, which means it is important to preserve what is left of our community. Therefore, I would hesitate to adopt a strategy that splits up the interactive element over different platforms (discord and forum).

It seems possible to create something hybrid on discord, allowing both chit-chat and the kind of more considered and easier to navigate discussions one has on a forum. I suppose the big headache and major priority (because technically way more challenging) is to preserve valuable information present on a forum that could in theory go down any moment without returning and to come up with an alternative that is easy to implement and keep up to date. I'm (literally) not sure if a wiki fits the bill. I know it is a nice from the user perspective, but atm the priority should be on ease of management.

Squid or GED territory, I've made an inquiry for the former.

Is it a matter of permissions or know-how?

[AnthoniusII]

Discord and steam workshop are VERY different from a forum where dedicated threads exist and are easily navigatable for hosted mods, or even for single-thread mods, where you can see the discussion from years past.

You mean a forum makes for a better archive / mausoleum. That's probably true.

World of Warships abandoned the traditional form of a Forum to be hosted in a Discord Chanel. Being an active member there and also an active modder too , my expirience tells me that NO discord can fully replace a traditional modding forum. Topics and questions get lost in a huge line of diffrent and irrelevant posts creating a mess. Id you see their Modding Tutorial section is 99% dead since it moved from the site to discord. Personal Discord chanels may be more helpfull but anyone that would like to be helpfull could easily be in the traditional way too like all previus great modders did and learned to us how to do things. Morticia says that many players will have no interest in older games. ModDB Modding section proves quite the opposite. Quite the opposite preves the Russian Imperium Forums ...In my old (by age)eyes personal Discord chanels are the way of a great modder to express his nascisism because hundreds before him offered their knowlege and support in open threads to all eyes. As fo the Curia its self. No section of this site will have the chance to "survive" in any form if the modding section will be removed.

[Sir Adrian]

TWC will never be the go to place to host mods but there is no reason TWC cannot be the place where you come to learn HOW to mod and where you come to find modding teams.

If I was admin I would take measures to reorient the site AND THE CURIA towards that direction. We have the wiki, we have the Scriptorium catalogs, we have the fora, all we really need is the marketing and some Artifexii willing to teach others.


Moving to discord is a stupid idea. TWC already has a discord server and it is basically empty. There are 2 other TWC discord servers and both of them have less activity than TWC.

[AnthoniusII]

TWC will never be the go to place to host mods but there is no reason TWC cannot be the place where you come to learn HOW to mod and where you come to find modding teams.

If I was admin I would take measures to reorient the site AND THE CURIA towards that direction. We have the wiki, we have the Scriptorium catalogs, we have the fora, all we really need is the marketing and some Artifexii willing to teach others.


Moving to discord is a stupid idea. TWC already has a discord server and it is basically empty. There are 2 other TWC discord servers and both of them have less activity than TWC.

THERE is a paradox in your sugestion. If TWC wont host mods , means that the modders will spend their full time where their mods are hosted. That alone will keep them away from "teaching" everything they know when they will have NO REASON to visit TWC just to publish their Tutorials. The problem lies in the chance of modders attidute. Those that can help REFUSE to do so if you are not in their close cycle of their "friends" , quite the opposite when I 1st joined TWC that great modders were always in the new blood disposal to SHARE their knowlege and help other mods than theirs! I remember how bad saw TWC community when Aplha Delta refused to share BC's material untill years later that changed his mind. Also I remember the MARKA team that their mod was actually their work for craduation in varius experties (actually an experiment in making PC programme lines and creating animation and working Z Brush) but from day 1 they NEVER refused help to anyone. I happen to be the 1st that recieve their help and writen permision. What RUINED TWC was that attidute chance. Selfish is never good for the many !!!!

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Titles older than M2TW are serviced by the Steam Workshop for modders and mod players. The older titles don't work that way, hence the still extant need for forums to host and organise mods and mod resources.

I don't think TWC can or should ever hope to compete with Steam, Reddit, Discord, etc. Nor should we strive to be the 'go-to' Total War website. Because we aren't. The post counts of each section clearly demonstrate that.

One thing I can say on the newer TW front is that a wider internet resource for modding is rather lacking. I think of stuff like the warhammer-based modding wiki I linked somewhere in the Q&S which is very barebones and unstructured. The need is there but it is not unified in delivery. Oh yes it's easy to get mods delivered to your doorstep via steam but actually getting the know-how seems like it could be benefited by a wider internet resource ie, something like TWC only properly updated/attuned to purpose. Basically looking towards Adrian's vein: capturing what opportunities are possible although the best ones have passed us by for some time now. So while our bread and butter for the realistic future is and will remain medieval 2/rome and a slight spattering after, it's not impossible to imagine giving value to later entries even if we're not the go-to download site.

This is to say TWC shouldn't shut the door entirely or mostly on newer entries or necessarily bury them ie in a way that discourages engagement, personally I'd rather each game does get roughly equal index access: however which are presented first is another matter and it would indeed make sense to present what we do well now at the head given the circumstances.

But we have a ways to go before new developments are realistic.

I don't think anyone here is thinking of starting over from scratch, which means it is important to preserve what is left of our community. Therefore, I would hesitate to adopt a strategy that splits up the interactive element over different platforms (discord and forum).

It seems possible to create something hybrid on discord, allowing both chit-chat and the kind of more considered and easier to navigate discussions one has on a forum. I suppose the big headache and major priority (because technically way more challenging) is to preserve valuable information present on a forum that could in theory go down any moment without returning and to come up with an alternative that is easy to implement and keep up to date. I'm (literally) not sure if a wiki fits the bill. I know it is a nice from the user perspective, but atm the priority should be on ease of management.

The wiki is the easiest to customize, even retheme if we'd like, and structure in any way we wish including to allow you or anyone else to make improvements without any advanced access. At this time it has the advantage of being simple to back up by literally anyone with a python environment. It already provides invaluable service as an index for modding resources and on that front runs much faster than the forum. This is what makes it appealing to me even though again I know it's a hard sell for those not familiar with the software. Of course I can dream big but my time/ability to realize these things is rather limited. Without more people sold on it the wiki will be on the back burner as it always had save for the stalwart few like mak, myself, other (appreciated) users for different periods.

I'm fine sprucing up the discord server however needed to get people 'sold' on the server, not necessarily to replace or split from the forum, but with the logic that we may as well get people there who would otherwise not really bother engaging with the forum anyway. If we can get just a handful more modders there who are prolific on other places it would be much more valuable. It feels awkward when the best thing I could do for someone making an inquiry is recommend they join a more active modding server. Relatedly I've long wanted to get into transcribing stuff you'd only hear/find on discord onto dedicated articles on the wiki. I've done it to some extent for a few things but again, only getting so far as a lone wolf.

Is it a matter of permissions or know-how?

With a cursory glance at the manual (I may well have missed something, someone techy can check my work), the only built-in method for what you describe is running a script on the server which is not tied in with admincp. Day to day the 'average' admin ie, the ones you see around still have equal, somewhat limited admincp access - if there is an option I have not seen it and I've perused what I can quite closely. Squid & GED have full access plus server and I'm not sure how the rest of tech (pann/augustus) are broken down; pann is gone at this point but augustus is not off the table yet.

[Gaius Baltar]

I detect a change in the climate. I guess its climate change.

I wonder what direction this will take? Maybe back to emphasizing mods and the TW environment?

Pics to follow.

[Akar]

pann is gone at this point but augustus is not off the table yet.

From what I recall Augustus has said in the past to just E-mail him about stuff like this so he can see and act on it if he's capable.

[mishkin]

Since no censors were appointed and the Consul is out, the curia is currently being run by Hex. Its procedures will continue to function such as they are, if something requires the Consul you can send the inquiry to myself or Abdul. However this should be a temporary state. An election is available if someone wants to take the mantle. It will remain open until there is a candidate or a Decision is made. And that is what this discussion is for.

How long will this situation continue? As an expert procrastinator I know the importance of setting deadlines.


It occurred to me these past few days to present a user to receive an award. This person, whom I obviously esteem, deserves to be rewarded/recognized by more than just three displeased people. Also deserves more than mishkin opening a rogue thread on Q&S asking users to vote if a certain person deserves a certain award and to ask the administration/regent consul to give them the medal if the users so decides. I repeat, I believe that this person, and some others, deserve something more than these two alternatives; a vote in a depopulated/boycotted curia or a vote cast without legitimacy at the initiative of any individual.

Apart from the Administration/DFK, does anyone have anything constructive to contribute? Any plan? Annoyed citizens, do you realize that right now the most viable solution is to close the curia and let the administration hand out medals?

Edit:

Pics to follow.

Still waiting for the pics.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Coming up is a split of the general twc talk from the curia talk. Since Hex has agreed on the OP's approach and minimal disagreement has been raised here (the moderation bit has been noted), I think we're good to proceed. Both I expect will arrive this evening, possibly tomorrow - apologies for the delay.

[mishkin]

No hurry on my part

[Muizer]

It occurred to me these past few days to present a user to receive an award. This person, whom I obviously esteem, deserves to be rewarded/recognized by more than just three displeased people. Also deserves more than mishkin opening a rogue thread on Q&S asking users to vote if a certain person deserves a certain award and to ask the administration/regent consul to give them the medal if the users so decides. I repeat, I believe that this person, and some others, deserve something more than these two alternatives; a vote in a depopulated/boycotted curia or a vote cast without legitimacy at the initiative of any individual. Apart from the Administration/DFK, does anyone have anything constructive to contribute? Any plan? Annoyed citizens, do you realize that right now the most viable solution is to close the curia and let the administration hand out medals

Seems like the answer is staring us in the face: Admin Mishkin, responsible for all things related to medals.

[mishkin]

Seems like the answer is staring us in the face: Admin Mishkin, responsible for all things related to medals.

This would have been an awesome april fool prank.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

General site discussion should be continued here, thank you.

yes I double posted. spank me.

............

Back to the OP.

What I've gathered is that subforum trimming, simplifying voting, ending bureaucratic processes ie ostrakon/vonc, and simplification of office elections are uncontroversial and shall proceed. Amending the language of citizenship and moderation practice is to be avoided. I can work on a simplified constitution page which can still reflect the award-giving nature of the place and explain the area's purpose (calling it a constitution now would be sentimental but in absence of a better name...) and have something up soon™ for perusal (anyone especially attached to a full-on final vote?). It seems Narf's proposed process is too little too late and will not be pursued.

Do we want to call the LM who remains a consul still or would it be more appropriate to revert to curator? (the LM who clerks threads for award votes/does LM stuff here). Or do we have any attachment to the group at all vs strictly having an LM with 'curator' or whatever as the informal curia-specific title for who handles daily affairs here. We're not starving for groups but taking out consul/censor wouldn't hurt performance for sure, a bit the opposite. Another route might be the Curia LM as a consul and the administrator who clerks things as the other consul (hey, two consuls... roman theme saved). Floor is open.