[RESOLVED] [Discussion] Curia future

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Well I never claimed to be a wise man ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯ time will tell.

[Sir Adrian]

There is no need for time. It's an objectively bad idea. Moderation makes mistakes, as evidenced by the large number of granted appeals over the years. You cannot expect the body that made a decision to also hear appeals on that decision. Even IRL you go to a court of appeals, you don't go to the same people who made the decision in the first place.

It's not something that takes up site resources.

[Flinn]

It's also about usefulness, not just use of resources.

As of today the Tribunal is basically useless... yes that sucks, but it's a fact. I don't think that getting rid of something that, if we are lucky, will be used once per year, will do any real harm.

One thing is certain: having to organize 6 elections, each time struggling to find even 1 candidate, just to slap them with a badge and see them doing some work only once, it's not really worth it. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

[mishkin]

It is true that it barely consumes resources, but:

- The administration does not have users to propose as tribunes. Miraculously, Garb and Soren happened to be passing by during the last crisis (or were contacted by other means) and agreed to be tribunes. Also they are practically captive users, as far as I know the only thing they do is check every month or every two months that there is no case that requires their services.
- The curia has no citizens to offer as magistrates, and this has been a serious problem for the last ten years despite the fact that it has always been possible to defend the presence of almost literally anybody (I wouldn't want to receive another penalty for insulting others/describing some of them) on the tribunal saying "they are only a third of the voters, really they cant do no harm."
- I'm not even going to check it, but how many cases have there been in the last two or three years? Two?

There are practically no members of the tribunal, there are practically no moderators, wanting a complex system to control possible abuses of moderation (seriously, what's the worst they can do?) is like asking for a 60-inch television when you live in a shanty without electricity.

I only understand that the tribunal wants to be maintained for sentimental/symbolic purposes.

[Flinn]

posting a reply since my edit got ninjad by mish

- I'm not even going to check it, but how many cases have there been in the last two or three years? Two?
.

3 appeals in 2022, 1 in 2023, 0 so far in 2024
Meanwhile Moderation handed out 37 infractions during 2022, 17 during 2023 and 10 so far during 2024.

[Sir Adrian]

Last I checked we had two magistrates, as for the tribunes, that can be anybody who is of good faith. Doesn't matter how many cases it had in the last 2 years, if there is the possibility for even one case showing up in the future it is necessary, especially now since moderation is a 2 man job which makes it even more prone to bias.

[mishkin]

"someone who is on good faith" is not at all sufficient. you can be a complete idiot with a good heart.

We are forgetting the possibility that has always been there of opening a thread in the moderation commentary forum explaining why Abdülmecid is unjustifiably punishing me (it is because I am greek, right?), why I have to suffer the horrible consequence of a note on my profile.

[Flinn]

Last I checked we had two magistrates, as for the tribunes, that can be anybody who is of good faith. Doesn't matter how many cases it had in the last 2 years, if there is the possibility for even one case showing up in the future it is necessary, especially now since moderation is a 2 man job which makes it even more prone to bias.

It might be useful, but bot even close to be necessary.

edit: just to expand; a total of 64 infractions in the past 28 months and only 4 appeals (ca 6%), of which only 1 was granted (ca 1,5%). Let's look at 2021, I'm limiting myself to appeals: 13 in total, only 1 was granted. Now I'm not saying that Moderation is so good that they do not make mistakes, I'm just telling that with the actual traffic at the site and the small numbers in general (new posts per day mostly) the possibility of a mistake, even less of bias, is so remote, that it does not justify all the hassle to put up 6 elections, with all that comes with them.

The Tribunal was a great feature of the site (as it was the Curia in its most vibrant days) but that time is long gone.. we could have closed it 3 1/2 years ago and nothing would have been different, in practical terms. And a lot of wasted time would have been invested, maybe, in something more productive.
It might not look a lot for those who never dealt with setting up elections, but a total of I think 20 elections over that period costed "someone" a lot of time. Let's focus on something more interesting, I say.

[Sir Adrian]

Number of infractions appealed is completely irrelevant. The option has to be there, it has to exist. As long as there is even one case where it is useful removing it is not justified.

I have to say I am extremely disappointed at the attitude on show here lately "let's destroy everything built and high-tail it to discord".

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

There's noarguing with a strawman ^

[Muizer]

I have to say I am extremely disappointed at the attitude on show here lately "let's destroy everything built and high-tail it to discord".

I'd be happy to discuss that, but I think that belongs in the 'State of the Union' thread.

Concerning the Tribunal, I think it is a great idea in theory. I have serious doubts about any kind of election though. What is representation worth, now that there's so few of us active members left? It's all down to personal interactions now it seems. But that also brings new opportunities. The chance to chart a new course. I think we should embrace it.

[Sir Adrian]

There's noarguing with a strawman ^

Except it's not a strawman. I don't remember whether it was you or Flinn who said the plan is to make TWC into a mausoleum and leave.

[mishkin]

Quote them. Expose their plan. TWC is already almost a mauoleum anyway, and if we want to blame someone we can only blame ourselves and ged.

Hate to say this but if you want to revitaliza a little bit the curia just say you want to be consul or magistrate.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

The new text is posted and is open for any adjustments/corrections for things that may have been worded poorly or otherwise in need of fixing/adjustment. Not all is set in stone either if some pieces should be added, changed, removed but it gives the gist and otherwise, the restructuring business in the Curia has finished and things can carry on here.

I'll make updates to the wiki probably tomorrow concurrent with other substantial adjustments that will need to be made then anyway including for Staff. Due to the process of election being essentially removed, Muizer's recognition is accepted; Narf's term may continue until expired or removed in a way concurrent with the system she was elected from, but that system is being grandfathered out at this time.

Quote them. Expose their plan. TWC is already almost a mauoleum anyway, and if we want to blame someone we can only blame ourselves and ged.

Hate to say this but if you want to revitaliza a little bit the curia just say you want to be consul or magistrate.

Too late, the train's left the station

[Akar]

Sad.

[Flinn]

Quote them. Expose their plan. TWC is already almost a mauoleum anyway, and if we want to blame someone we can only blame ourselves and ged.

Personally, I only blame GED. But it's not his fault alone, honestly. As I said above, it's a combination of factors.

I'm in no way blaming any other member of this site, certainly not those who have contributed to it the most, no matter how.

[Narf]

Removing the tribunal is profusely stupid.

I agree. The area where one can seek 'objective' justice/judgement by peers is, paramount for site health.

[mishkin]

I agree. The area where one can seek 'objective' justice/judgement by peers is, paramount for site health.

The tribunal (tribunes and no doubt magistrates) can be as subjective as moderation, and their function was not to judge their "peers" (I don't know what you mean by this) but to judge whether the moderation had acted correctly in specific cases. That was always the objective of the tribunal, nothing to do with the curia (other than as a provider of respectable individuals/magistrate who acted as controllers of the tribunes, as if that had ever been necessary, and as interns).

Right now, if I believe that I have been unfairly penalized and my dialogue about it with the moderation is not fruitful, I will present the case in a thread in the moderation commentary forum so that my peers (any user, form ged to Garb to randomuser123) can see what has happened and the administration knows that an irregularity might have been committed. And that's what I suggest anyone who is "unfairly" penalized do from now on.

[Flinn]

Except it's not a strawman. I don't remember whether it was you or Flinn who said the plan is to make TWC into a mausoleum and leave.

It was me, but I didn't say "leave", the contrary.

I said that TWC's Forum could work as a repository for mods, tool and tutorials; the wiki will be the place where news and guides will be posted; the Discord will be the place where day to day discussion is held.
That doesn't mean that the TD or the Mudpit will be closed, but certainly all those areas that need the contribution of different volunteers and that, sadly, don't have it, will and are going to be closed. It's organic, I'm afraid.

Ps I'm not directly involved in this, I mean as a "spy of the council" I regularly do say mine, and I offered my help for the Curia and Discord (and still being a global moderator, that is), but I completely agree with the path taken by the current administration.. this is where circumstances and the lack of interest from the owner led us.

I've seen plenty of great contributors get burned out trying to run every day more stuff in order to prevent the site from rolling back, but to no avail. We are now to the bitter end, as long forecast: the correct thing to do is to save what is salvageable, keeping the forum alive thanks to the interaction with the Wiki and Discord (both places where it is easier to find contributors and new members). Pretending that the forum can keep functioning as in the past (I mean, the community that uses it) it's a none sense, the more because for long it was possible to put our money where our mouths were.. as of today, as DFK said, that train has left the station.

[Frunk]

When/why was it decided to open the Curia main to non-Citizens? Did I miss something?