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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #121

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So what is your over under on that. Real and ignored or looking to put a knife in the back of Bibi. Be interesting I guess to see if the same passed to the US.
    I think either is plausible, but I’m not sure. On the one hand, Netanyahu is quite risk averse, but on the other, he also has a tendency to be overconfident in the correctness of his own opinions, so if he was sure nothing would happen...

    His most devoted followers are going to call this “fake news” but even the allegation coming from a named source looks really bad for him.
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    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #122
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This is either true or the Egyptians are sick of Bibi:
    This is truly bizarre. Good on Egyptian intelligence for their due diligence, but seriously WTF, Netanyahu? I can't tell if it's complacency or complicity at this point (i.e. not lifting a finger and hoping Hamas would attack so the situation could be exploited politically afterwards). I get that the Jewish holiday meant that many active service members would be enjoying a vacation, but that does not excuse a total lapse in security. Even if it's just total apathetic carelessness, Netanyahu should face parliamentary consequences for this and his own party should not be squeamish about sending him into political exile over it.

  3. #123

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This is either true or the Egyptians are sick of Bibi:
    I haven’t seen Kamel’s actual statement but perhaps it hasn’t made its way to English language news. The White House also denied receiving any intel from the Egyptians or Kamel himself in advance of the attacks, so the idea he only mentioned this to Bibi in a private phone call “10 days” in advance with minimal details or follow up seems bizarre. Needless to say, the story has already been seized upon by those claiming Israel had some kind of complicity in the attacks or are exploiting them as an excuse to mass murder Palestinians.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #124
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I haven’t seen Kamel’s actual statement but perhaps it hasn’t made its way to English language news. The White House also denied receiving any intel from the Egyptians or Kamel himself in advance of the attacks, so the idea he only mentioned this to Bibi in a private phone call “10 days” in advance with minimal details or follow up seems bizarre. Needless to say, the story has already been seized upon by those claiming Israel had some kind of complicity in the attacks or are exploiting them as an excuse to mass murder Palestinians.
    Whether or not Netanyahu is guilty of complacency or complicity, Israel's reactions thus far have been warranted against Hamas given the sheer scale of this attack and its ongoing hostage crisis. If Netanyahu was actually explicitly warned and decided to take no action, that would be one of the biggest scandals in Israel's history. For the sake of argument, let's just say Netanyahu wasn't calculating about exploiting the tragedy and was instead absolutely, mind numbingly careless and apathetic about national security. That's not good either and almost as damning as the former, and it is one of these two options. The blame would also not be entirely on him but on leading figures of Israel's military and security apparatus.

  5. #125
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    This is a very sensitive topic.

    Why Hamas attacked and what happens next

    …Disruption of the diplomacy aimed at Saudi-Israeli normalization may have been one of the motivations for the Hamas attack.
    The key variable is the position of the Saudi regime. Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MbS) almost certainly still would like to reach an agreement that meets most of his demands regarding security assurances, arms sales, and nuclear assistance.
    But any heightened bloodshed between Israelis and Arabs makes it harder for any Arab ruler, even MbS, to reach new agreements with Israel. Regardless of his own feelings on the matter, MbS needs to consider Saudi public opinion and the special interest that his father, King Salman, has in the Palestinian issue.
    Taking a longer and broader perspective, today’s events and the ensuing war will demonstrate once again that, notwithstanding the efforts to de-emphasize the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and to sideline the issue through “peace” agreements with Arab states, the conflict and its destabilizing consequences will not go away. Frustrating nationalist aspirations do not cause the aspirations themselves to disappear, nor do they remove resentment over oppressive treatment of a people. This time the violent response was orchestrated by Hamas; next time the violent response may take some other form. Even before today’s events, many informed observers were seeing a high chance of a new intifada, or popular uprising, in the West Bank.
    US effort to improve Israeli-Saudi relations in doubt

    ...Unlike many of his predecessors, Biden has made no direct effort to foster peace talks between Israelis and Palestinians.
    Israel-Hamas conflict: Saudi Arabia calls for 'two-state-solution

    ----
    According to an IDF spokesman, more than 700 people have been killed in Israel since the Hamas attack. A total of 260 young Israelis were killed at a music festival in the desert. The brutal images of the cold-blooded murders of these innocents immediately reminded me of March 15, 1961, northern Angola.

    In Nambuangongo, at least a thousand whites were killed, savagely butchered, impaled through the anus, sawn up and set on fire, women and children raped and killed, property destroyed. The horrific images can be found on the internet.

    The "15th of March" started the Angolan War of Independence and was the responsibility of the Union of the Populations of Angola (UPA), led by Holden Roberto. In the 1950s, this man started to receive an annual subsidy from the US National Security Council of 6,000 dollars a year. So, what happened after the brutal, bloody massacre perpetrated with a force of 4,000 Bakongo recruited by Roberto in Kinshasa? The American payment increased to 10,000 dollars a year in the next year,1962.

    On the Portuguese side, for every intervention by a researcher who tries to contextualize the UPA attacks, there are countless reactions on the Internet - and elsewhere - refusing to see the events as anything more than "barbarism", "bestiality", "terrorism”. (in fact, similar to what we see now expressed in the international media in relation to the events of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict).

    On the Angolan side, the situation is seen differently, justified by the legitimacy attributed to the struggle for independence, even with brutal violence.

    The surprising defeat of the Israeli secret services will give Netanyahu and the ultra-Orthodox more power to erase Palestine from the map (even though they say the war is against Hamas and not the Palestinians). The UN coordinator for the Middle East peace process has called for "restraint". It seems that there will be no restraint.Will Israel become a new Ukraine? in this case the colonizing country being attacked by the colonized country. But, to use Roosevelt's terminology, the Israelis are our "sons of ".

    This war was predicted over a century ago and the consequences are unforeseeable. The Balfour Declaration, signed in 1917, already foreshadowed the confrontation of our times - some call it the "Balfour Curse". Balfour wrote: “His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people… it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

    In 1917, non-Jewish communities could not be harmed; in 2013, against UN resolutions, Israel's right to self-defense prevails.

    Although in Balfour's time the Jews were already a martyred people (just remember the history of the expulsion of the Jews from Europe), we were still a long way from Hitler's coming to power and the Holocaust. In England, anti-Semitism was quite evident in the 1930s and 1940s.

    The Jews are historically a martyred people with the right to a land, but what recent history shows is that the Israeli leadership has managed to create another contemporary martyred people: the Palestinians. Where is the two-state solution? The fulfillment of United Nations resolutions?

    In the West, people are being "cancelled" (using a new expression," cancel culture") for defending Palestinian rights, like Jeremy Corbyn, who has been accused of being "anti-Semitic" and is now barred from running in the next elections.

    Toni Judt, the Jewish historian who has fiercely condemned Israeli policy against the Palestinians, defined the American Jews in one of his last interviews as follows “American Jews -- most of whom know nothing of Jewish history, Jewish languages or Jewish religion -- feel "Jewish" by identifying unthinkingly with Auschwitz as the source of their special victim status and "Israel" as their insurance policy and macho other. I find this contemptible -- they are quite happy to see Arabs killed in their name, so long as other Jews do it. That's not fear, that is something between surrogate nationalism and moral indifference”. Source: “Tony Judt's Final Word on Israel-The Atlantic

    It seems to me that the Ukrainian war will end sooner than the tragedy in the Middle East.
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  6. #126

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Whether or not Netanyahu is guilty of complacency or complicity, Israel's reactions thus far have been warranted against Hamas given the sheer scale of this attack and its ongoing hostage crisis. If Netanyahu was actually explicitly warned and decided to take no action, that would be one of the biggest scandals in Israel's history. For the sake of argument, let's just say Netanyahu wasn't calculating about exploiting the tragedy and was instead absolutely, mind numbingly careless and apathetic about national security. That's not good either and almost as damning as the former, and it is one of these two options. The blame would also not be entirely on him but on leading figures of Israel's military and security apparatus.
    It’s reasonable to allege a degree of Israeli incompetence in hindsight of the way the attacks unfolded. But even if true to such an extent, it means the Israelis acted with a level of deference and good faith the #FreePalestine lobby has always demanded of them, trusting their “victims” to seek peaceful solutions after years and years of attacks. The idea the Israelis were explicitly warned of an imminent huge attack and dismissed it is far fetched in the first place unless I already assume the they are “calculating and exploiting the tragedy” to any extent. There’s sufficient evidence Iran and Hamas have calculated and exploited this tragedy, banking on the anti-Israel backlash across the Arab world to derail normalization talks that would geopolitically doom both Iran and their proxies like Hamas in the region.
    Last edited by Legio_Italica; October 09, 2023 at 11:39 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #127

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I think either is plausible, but I’m not sure. On the one hand, Netanyahu is quite risk averse, but on the other, he also has a tendency to be overconfident in the correctness of his own opinions, so if he was sure nothing would happen...
    His most devoted followers are going to call this “fake news” but even the allegation coming from a named source looks really bad for him.
    Not heeding to a warning is one thing. Israeli army's lack of presence and response in the first day can not be explained by Netanyahu's character alone.
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  8. #128
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Whatever Hamas was or was not 20 years ago, matters little now. They may not be as extreme as ISIS but at this point, it is splitting hair.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  9. #129
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Sorry all double browser latency is making difficult to know if I am posting - Chrome or crappy rural US bandwidth?
    Last edited by conon394; October 09, 2023 at 12:15 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  10. #130
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Personally I little shocked at the seeming incompetence. I would expected the military posts at least if not be able to do anything actively at minimum defend themselves and call in air support. This is not over running the non militarized border crossing at Danville in rural WA/Canada. I guess I would have imagined something like the Battle of Wanat. Complacently seems right now to larger than just Netanyahu
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #131
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    On the Angolan side, the situation is seen differently, justified by the legitimacy attributed to the struggle for independence, even with brutal violence.
    Was it really necessary to share all of this from the article about the Angolan War of Independence, which happened decades ago and is basically unrelated to this thread?

    This war was predicted over a century ago and the consequences are unforeseeable. The Balfour Declaration, signed in 1917, already foreshadowed the confrontation of our times - some call it the "Balfour Curse". Balfour wrote: “His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people… it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

    In 1917, non-Jewish communities could not be harmed; in 2013, against UN resolutions, Israel's right to self-defense prevails.

    Although in Balfour's time the Jews were already a martyred people (just remember the history of the expulsion of the Jews from Europe), we were still a long way from Hitler's coming to power and the Holocaust. In England, anti-Semitism was quite evident in the 1930s and 1940s.

    The Jews are historically a martyred people with the right to a land, but what recent history shows is that the Israeli leadership has managed to create another contemporary martyred people: the Palestinians. Where is the two-state solution? The fulfillment of United Nations resolutions?
    I think Hamas has pretty much blown up the idea that they're even remotely interested in a two-state solution. Per their own charter that is not their priority. Their priority is the total destruction of Israel as a state, and their spokesmen have openly advocated for killing all the Jews in the region in a complete and systematic ethnic cleansing similar to the Einsatzgruppen of the Third Reich. Maybe in the future a two-state solution could be had with Fatah governing the semi-autonomous West Bank, but that is currently a far-fetched proposal, since right-wing hardliners reign over both the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli Knesset, respectively. There is basically no negotiating with Hamas, though, since they have demonstrated time and again that negotiation is merely a stalling tactic while they prepare to launch another attack in the name of Jihad, holy war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    It’s reasonable to allege a degree of Israeli incompetence in hindsight of the way the attacks unfolded. But even if true to such an extent, it means the Israelis acted with a level of deference and good faith the #FreePalestine lobby has always demanded of them, trusting their “victims” to seek peaceful solutions after years and years of attacks. The idea the Israelis were explicitly warned of an imminent huge attack and dismissed it is far fetched in the first place unless I already assume the they are “calculating and exploiting the tragedy” to any extent. There’s sufficient evidence Iran and Hamas have calculated and exploited this tragedy, banking on the anti-Israel backlash across the Arab world to derail normalization talks that would geopolitically doom both Iran and their proxies like Hamas in the region.
    I mean, the general public can be fooled about the intentions of Hamas easily, especially with public cooling of rhetoric over time and worker visas being granted and normalization seemingly underway, but Israeli intelligence services and their chief executive? For them, dropping the ball here is not excusable, especially with reports like this in mind:

    Hamas built a mock Israeli town in Gaza and practiced its attack in plain sight — but Israel didn't react, report says

    How in the holy hell did this go undetected by the vaunted Mossad? WTF?

    With that being said, you are right about Iran's involvement and their glee in disrupting the Saudi-Israeli normalization attempts. Hezbollah joining in is obvious proof of that.

  12. #132
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    What about a zero-state solution?
    Because that is the alternative to a two-state solution.

    Have two states and embargo/punish Palestine if there continue to be Hamas-type groups there. But first have two states, not this mockery with a prison state.
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  13. #133
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Hamas' mass executions of civilians, Israel bombing markets in Gaza, the escalation... it's all truly horrible.

  14. #134
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Old gods die hard
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not heeding to a warning is one thing. Israeli army's lack of presence and response in the first day can not be explained by Netanyahu's character alone.
    I have to agree. If Netanyahu had some warning is one thing, but operationally, what kind of Israeli commander would demilitarize the Hamas border to the extent that the watchtowers were not even manned? There is some very deep rot there that is as dangerous to the Israeli people as any terrorist group.

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  15. #135
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Hamas' mass executions of civilians, Israel bombing markets in Gaza, the escalation... it's all truly horrible.
    Blame the government of Israel: https://maki.org.il/en/?p=31248

    In a statement concerning rapid escalation of military confrontation between Hamas and Israeli forces, the Communist Party of Israel (CPI) and the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality (Hadash) blame Saturday the criminal occupation policy of the far-right Netanyahu government, underlining the grave dangers that it poses for the peace in the region.
    “The fascist right-wing government’s crimes to perpetuate the occupation are leading to a regional war that must be stopped. Even in difficult days like this – we repeat and voice an unequivocal condemnation of any harm to innocent civilians, and call for their removal from the bloodshed. We send our condolences to all the families of the victims of the occupation, Arabs and Jews alike”, the statement reads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post

    If the state of Israel had a brain, they would have provided the basis and support for a stable, wealthy Palestinian state. Instead, they have been trying to sabotage every attempt to create such a state, and instead partitioned off the West Bank into hundreds of little pieces and blockaded Gaza for two decades.
    This is not a lack of brains, it's a strategy to wipe Palestine off the map.
    Last edited by Hobbes; October 09, 2023 at 03:52 PM.

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  16. #136

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    The Fog of War is still quite real here, and throwing around accusations of ignored reports or poor defenses is probably premature. Time tends to make fools of us all. After watching some of the videos, its good I am not a world leader, because I'd probably begin carpet bombing. I would hunt down and kill everyone in Hamas, everyone who supplied them, and think about everyone remotely friendly to them.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

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  17. #137

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    How does water help Hamas fight Israel?

    Energy minister instructs authorities to cut off water to Gaza
    Energy Minister Israel Katz announces that he has instructed authorities to cut off water to the Gaza Strip.

    “I instructed that the water supply from Israel to Gaza be cut off immediately,” Katz says in a statement, adding that the flow of power and fuel was ceased two days ago.
    The Armenian Issue

  18. #138
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I would hunt down and kill everyone in Hamas, everyone who supplied them, and think about everyone remotely friendly to them.
    Unhinged take of the day.

    For cooler heads:
    https://jacobin.com/2023/10/israel-p...aza-oppression

    The tragic scenes unfolding in Gaza and Israel are a chilling reminder that occupation and oppression bear a price. For the truth is that when you imprison two million people in 140 square miles, placing them under a merciless siege with no end in sight, with no way in or out, with drones and rockets buzzing overhead night and day, with constant surveillance and harassment, with scant control over their day-to-day lives — ultimately, the dispossessed will rebel.

    [...]

    In the West Bank, the Palestinian town of Jenin is still reeling from the devastation of a recent unsparing Israeli attack, which left the town a razed ghostland. The small town of Huwara has yet to recover from the deadly horrors unleashed by settlers on its residents.

    [...]

    In Jerusalem, Israeli soldiers and security forces have allowed the settler mobs to run amok, evicting Palestinian families by force and occupying their homes. During the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, settlers stormed into the Al-Aqsa Mosque complex in Jerusalem, staging provocative tours, harassing and beating worshippers, and spitting on Christians.

    [...]

    For decades, Israel has demanded the unquestioning surrender of its victims and refused to accept defiance in any form. The message has been unequivocal: democratic tactics are futile. Even when Palestinians embraced nonviolent resistance — strikes, demonstrations, etc. — they were met with brutal force by Israel.

    [...]

    The ongoing explosion in violence is the ugly reality of Israeli apartheid, the culmination of decades of occupation of a stateless people deprived of basic human rights and freedoms. Unless the root causes are dismantled — the siege lifted, the apartheid system and occupation ended — violence will continue to tragically haunt Palestinians and Israelis for years to come.
    Anyone not discussing this development in terms of the consequences of a brutal occupation is either ignorant or arguing in bad faith. End of story.

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  19. #139
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Delete/sorry
    Last edited by mishkin; October 09, 2023 at 04:16 PM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    As a world leader you would be some kind of genocidal fascist. Please dont quit your job.
    So I'd fit right in with the Islamic world leaders.

    And as I said I'm quite emotional in this. I'm angry. I'm horrified. Anyone looking at these crimes dispassionately is probably a sociopath.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

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