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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #101

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Musk would abuse the enlightenment zap machine to get laid, then he'd roll out an inferior substitute for 8.99 a month and it'd bomb.
    Probably... the powers that be monetize everything... even if that includes their options to save the world. Save the world or.... monetize the machine that can save the world and make it only a commodity for the well-off, thus not saving the world? They'd choose the latter, if only to make a few bucks.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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  2. #102

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    A few regular TWC posters have asked me about my situation in relation to the conflict, so I’ll just answer here.

    Since all the really terrible stuff has happened in the south, the experience in Tel Aviv isn’t much different than a typical conflict with Hamas. We had a few massive barrages of rockets fired at us on the first day, to the extent that it did somewhat overwhelm the iron dome. There were a few direct impacts, but none near me. The vast majority of the rockets were intercepted, so they exploded in the air. The real danger in that case is falling shrapnel. In Tel Aviv, we have 90 seconds to get to a bomb shelter from the time the warning siren goes off. In 2014, I was in an area closer to Gaza with only a 30 second warning, so 90 seconds seems leisurely in comparison, at least when I’m at home and not in the shower or something. The communities close to Gaza have about 7 seconds.

    The siren for the first barrage went off at 6:42 AM, if I remember correctly. It woke me up. Because there hadn’t been any tensions recently, I thought it might be a siren malfunction, but I dragged my son out of bed went into the shelter anyway. Only Hamas’s largest rockets have the range to reach Tel Aviv, but that means that each carries at least a 90 kg warhead. As you can imagine, a hundred or more of these exploding in a short span of time is tremendously loud. When they are closer, you can really feel the shockwave, even inside a shelter. The third barrage of the day came at night, this time it was actually multiple barrages in short succession. It’s supposed to be considered safe to leave your shelter ten minutes after the warning siren stops, but multiple times we never got to ten minutes before the siren went off again.

    From the beginning, Homefront Command ordered all schools and universities to be closed. Most non-essential businesses are closed as well. This means most people are staying home near their shelters.

    To my knowledge, I don’t personally know anyone who was killed or wounded. Although, I work at Tel Aviv University, and surely some of our students were among the ~3,000 at the rave where hundreds of young people were killed, so I may find out otherwise. I expect that some of our students and faculty have also been called up for reserve duty.

    For me personally, 2014 was much more dramatic. I was working outdoors at an archaeological site where we had no cover except our excavation squares, and I was sleeping at a kibbutz that suffered two direct hits. But that was still next to nothing compared to the scenes in the videos Hamas has posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #103
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    A few regular TWC posters have asked me about my situation in relation to the conflict, so I’ll just answer here.

    Since all the really terrible stuff has happened in the south, the experience in Tel Aviv isn’t much different than a typical conflict with Hamas. We had a few massive barrages of rockets fired at us on the first day, to the extent that it did somewhat overwhelm the iron dome. There were a few direct impacts, but none near me. The vast majority of the rockets were intercepted, so they exploded in the air. The real danger in that case is falling shrapnel. In Tel Aviv, we have 90 seconds to get to a bomb shelter from the time the warning siren goes off. In 2014, I was in an area closer to Gaza with only a 30 second warning, so 90 seconds seems leisurely in comparison, at least when I’m at home and not in the shower or something. The communities close to Gaza have about 7 seconds.

    The siren for the first barrage went off at 6:42 AM, if I remember correctly. It woke me up. Because there hadn’t been any tensions recently, I thought it might be a siren malfunction, but I dragged my son out of bed went into the shelter anyway. Only Hamas’s largest rockets have the range to reach Tel Aviv, but that means that each carries at least a 90 kg warhead. As you can imagine, a hundred or more of these exploding in a short span of time is tremendously loud. When they are closer, you can really feel the shockwave, even inside a shelter. The third barrage of the day came at night, this time it was actually multiple barrages in short succession. It’s supposed to be considered safe to leave your shelter ten minutes after the warning siren stops, but multiple times we never got to ten minutes before the siren went off again.

    From the beginning, Homefront Command ordered all schools and universities to be closed. Most non-essential businesses are closed as well. This means most people are staying home near their shelters.

    To my knowledge, I don’t personally know anyone who was killed or wounded. Although, I work at Tel Aviv University, and surely some of our students were among the ~3,000 at the rave where hundreds of young people were killed, so I may find out otherwise. I expect that some of our students and faculty have also been called up for reserve duty.

    For me personally, 2014 was much more dramatic. I was working outdoors at an archaeological site where we had no cover except our excavation squares, and I was sleeping at a kibbutz that suffered two direct hits. But that was still next to nothing compared to the scenes in the videos Hamas has posted.
    I read somewhere that the Iron Dome was inactive. Is it true? Cause you read many staff on internet, not all are real

  4. #104
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Is there any official explanation of how Israel got stormed by Hamas? It would seem to allude to Hamas having either drastically increased its capabilities, and/or a massive weakness in the israeli intelligence services.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
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  5. #105
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Glad you and your family are ok sumskilz, despite the great discrepancies, best wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    I read somewhere that the Iron Dome was inactive. Is it true? Cause you read many staff on internet, not all are real
    I suppose that if it had been inactive it would have been a massacre (despite the warnings and the bunkers).

    Cause you read many staff on internet, not all are real
    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.

  6. #106
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    double
    Last edited by conon394; October 09, 2023 at 04:33 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #107
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    I read somewhere that the Iron Dome was inactive. Is it true? Cause you read many staff on internet, not all are real
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1711122856271090040

    Looks pretty active to me. I do believe Hamas target one of forward sensor locations near the boarder but not exactly inactive.

    ---------------


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Is there any official explanation of how Israel got stormed by Hamas? It would seem to allude to Hamas having either drastically increased its capabilities, and/or a massive weakness in the israeli intelligence services.
    One assumes a lot of planning and good operational security combined with complacency by the Israeli side. And think about even somebody raised a hand in the itel briefing and correctly described the attack they might might well loose. Everyone would say Hamas would not be willing bring down the kind of retaliation Israel would hand out to Gaza and the suffering that would impose on the citizens they claim to be the government of.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    I read somewhere that the Iron Dome was inactive. Is it true? Cause you read many staff on internet, not all are real
    It’s definitely still active, very active in fact. The vast majority of rockets have been intercepted. I haven’t been outside to watch it, but we can hear the batteries firing off, and the rockets make a different sound when they explode in the air versus when they hit something. That’s hard to distinguish when it’s a bunch of explosions at once, but any impact on a city makes the local news here.

    We just had another siren, but I only heard a few explosions and they were pretty far away. That almost certainly means that Hamas wasn’t able to launch very many at once this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Is there any official explanation of how Israel got stormed by Hamas? It would seem to allude to Hamas having either drastically increased its capabilities, and/or a massive weakness in the israeli intelligence services.
    A picture is starting to emerge. There were the factors I’ve already mentioned – a lot of soldiers were on leave for the holiday in addition to some units having been redeployed to the West Bank and the Northern Front due to unrest in the former and tensions with Hezbollah on the latter.

    And then there was this:

    Hamas conducted a years-long campaign to fool Israel into thinking the group did not desire armed conflict and could be placated with economic incentives to maintain relative calm, a source close to the terror organization told the Reuters news agency Monday.

    “Hamas gave Israel the impression that it was not ready for a fight,” the source told the agency.

    “Hamas used an unprecedented intelligence tactic to mislead Israel over the last months, by giving a public impression that it was not willing to go into a fight or confrontation with Israel while preparing for this massive operation,” the source said.

    The border with Gaza had been relatively quiet in recent months. Hamas sat out a deadly round of fighting between Israel and the smaller Palestinian Islamic Jihad earlier this year. ...

    The source said that as part of its preparations, the terror organization built a mock Israeli community to train for the assault in which gunmen went house-to-house in border towns Saturday, killing residents.

    “Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn’t keen on getting into a confrontation,” the source said.

    “Hamas was able to build a whole image that it was not ready for a military adventure against Israel,” the source said.

    The source said that many leaders of the terror group were not told of the planned attack in order to prevent it leaking to Israel. In addition, the approximately 1,000 terrorists involved in the devastating assault were not told exactly what they were training for.

    An unnamed Israeli security source told the news outlet that the security services had fallen for the ruse.

    “They caused us to think they wanted money,” the Israeli source said. “And all the time they were involved in exercises or drills until they ran riot.”

    The report said that Hamas’s apparent refusal to become involved in recent rounds of fighting, even as Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired rockets at Israel, was part of the subterfuge.

    Former national security adviser Yaakov Amidror told Reuters that some countries allied with the Jewish state had bought into the lie, telling Jerusalem that Hamas was showing “more responsibility.”

    “We stupidly began to believe that it was true,” he said. “So, we made a mistake...”
    I can understand why wishful-thinking external parties fell for it, but it’s ridiculous to me that Netanyahu’s government and the security services did. Anyone familiar with my posting history here will know that I never bought the ruse, and obviously I had no access to inside information.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Glad you and your family are ok sumskilz, despite the great discrepancies, best wishes.
    Thanks
    Last edited by sumskilz; October 09, 2023 at 05:29 AM. Reason: fixed copy-paste mistake
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  9. #109
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I haven’t been outside to watch it, but we can hear the batteries firing off, and the rockets make a different sound when they explode in the air versus when they hit something. That’s hard to distinguish when it’s a bunch of explosions at once, but any impact on a city makes the local news here.

    We just had another siren, but I only heard a few explosions and they were pretty far away. That almost certainly means that Hamas wasn’t able to launch very many at once this time.

    I don't think I can communicate properly here how downright alien this seems to me. The "Oh, just a few rockets. They made the sound they do when intercepted. A siren but meh, didn't seem too bad." mentality, when I would have been hiding under my desk for days in such a case.

    I don't understand why other countries do not develop their versions of the Iron Dome. It is tried and tested. Put that in Ukraine, Korea and make "portable" versions for countries in civil war. Arty and drones are the main killers in wars today.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 09, 2023 at 05:46 AM.
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  10. #110
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I can understand why wishful-thinking external parties fell for it, but it’s ridiculous to me that Netanyahu’s government and the security services did. Anyone familiar with my posting history here will know that I never bought the ruse, and obviously I had no access to inside information.
    The fact that Hamas is using their grisly videos of executions for a recruitment or funding drive, attacking music festivals, and taking hostages in Israel who came from various other countries (not just Israeli nationals), pretty much signals to me that they're not much different than ISIS or al-Qaeda. This isn't about freedom fighting or liberation or nationhood. Their actions speak differently. This is simply about destroying Israel, killing Jews, and waging Jihad. What's going on in Gaza is a travesty, especially when considering the steady progress towards peace that has been made with the West Bank in recent decades.

    Thanks
    Mishkin's post is seconded by me, hope you're doing alright and that your colleagues and students stay safe.

  11. #111
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Has Hamas always been like this and they were never able to show it or is this their "we don't give a ### anymore" moment?

    I know that the situation is difficult, but closing the Gaza ghetto is another absolute bestiality.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 09, 2023 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Has Hamas always been like this and they were never able to show it or is this their "we don't give a ### anymore" moment?
    There have been suicide bombings and civilians being targeted but not at this scale or ferocity. At one point they have decided to cease suicide attacks and they have stayed true to that promise for the most part for years. It's certainly a fluid group that got more moderate and extreme depending on the circumstances and timeline.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Thanks

  14. #114

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Thanks
    Moreover, back in 2005/2006 elections Hamas used a much moderate tone against Israel for reconciliation in exchange for lifting of the blockade. This was when Hamas declared that they would no longer use suicide bombings. Israel instead tightened the blockade and did much to hinder the elections. Obviously, we are far away from that Hamas today with extreme Iranian influence.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #115

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Has Hamas always been like this and they were never able to show it or is this their "we don't give a ### anymore" moment?
    They have always been the same ideologically.

    Quoting Fathi Ahmad Hamad, Hamas Interior Minister 2009–2014:

    [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."
    source

    Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhoum 2014:

    Anyone who has a knife, a club, a weapon, or a car, yet does not use it to run over a Jew or a settler, and does not use it to kill dozens of Zionists, does not belong to Palestine... Political and social considerations are worthless. Blood and martyrdom are the only considerations that matter.
    source

    From the Hamas Covenant (1988), their founding document:

    Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it...

    The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews’ usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised..

    Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
    There is also a long rant in there about how the Jews (aka the enemies) are the scheming force behind almost everything and the cause of WWI and WWII:

    The enemies have been scheming for a long time... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.
    I don’t believe their periods of temporary moderation are anything more than strategic maneuvers, like the one they just used to lull Israel into foolishly letting its guard down. They are good at showing one face for an international audience and a different one when speaking Arabic to their own people.

    They ended suicide bombing attacks when they were more focused on killing off their Palestinian rivals, and switched to rocket attacks against civilians instead. Arguably, this was due to Israel largely figuring out how to foil bus bombings, so rather than repeatedly failing at them, they turned it into a PR win instead.
    Last edited by sumskilz; October 09, 2023 at 09:21 AM. Reason: formatting
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  16. #116
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Old gods die hard
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    I have been watching some of the horrific videos on social media. In particular I am perplexed by the vids showing breaching of the barrier fence and again at a nearby military base. In both cases these was no Israeli presence. There was literally no one monitoring these structures it seems. The terrorist forces walked up to the barrier fence, planted explosives, ran back, detonated, and then moved through the now open barriers. No one challenged them or provided any resistance at all at these locations.

    What happened to the "smart" sensors and installation guards, patrols, drones, etc?

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  17. #117
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar View Post
    I have been watching some of the horrific videos on social media. In particular I am perplexed by the vids showing breaching of the barrier fence and again at a nearby military base. In both cases these was no Israeli presence. There was literally no one monitoring these structures it seems. The terrorist forces walked up to the barrier fence, planted explosives, ran back, detonated, and then moved through the now open barriers. No one challenged them or provided any resistance at all at these locations.

    What happened to the "smart" sensors and installation guards, patrols, drones, etc?
    Complacency. Who knows poor contractors. Nobody using the equipment. I mean I can build a very secure PC for somebody but I can't stop you from not maintaining it and not updating software and recklessly ignoring warnings to not click this or that.

    Reporting does seem to say Israel moved troops around away from GAza and kinda decided the potential threat level was low and not imminent.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    This is either true or the Egyptians are sick of Bibi:

    Abbas Kamel, the powerful head of Egyptian intelligence, warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu 10 days before the attack, Ynet reports.

    Kamel warned Israel that “something unusual, a terrible operation” was about to take place around Gaza.

    Kamel was reportedly aghast at Netanyahu’s passivity upon hearing the report.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #119
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    So what is your over under on that. Real and ignored or looking to put a knife in the back of Bibi. Be interesting I guess to see if the same passed to the US.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #120
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So what is your over under on that. Real and ignored or looking to put a knife in the back of Bibi. Be interesting I guess to see if the same passed to the US.
    As mentioned earlier, I wouldn't put it past Bibi to have purposefully ignored a looming crisis in order to use it for the purposes of consolidating both his position internally (the whole judicial powergrab) and also to further bolster Israel's position vis-a-vis Palestine. Though, even if that's true, I doubt he would have expected an attack this big, but sth more typical, a few dozen casualties at most to rally behind.

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