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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #61
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    During the course of yesterday, while broadcasting the murder, mutilation, and rape of women, old people, and children live on social media, Hamas - and the Palestinians as a whole - lost a significant part of their Western supporters.

    Considering the mood of the world right now, Israel has probably been given the green light, from now on it can do whatever it wants. The question is how far Netanyahu - or if the unity government is formed, then the political elite - will go.
    I doubt they can go as far as some radical Israelis would like them to go

  2. #62
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    During the course of yesterday, while broadcasting the murder, mutilation, and rape of women, old people, and children live on social media, Hamas - and the Palestinians as a whole - lost a significant part of their Western supporters.

    Considering the mood of the world right now, Israel has probably been given the green light, from now on it can do whatever it wants. The question is how far Netanyahu - or if the unity government is formed, then the political elite - will go.
    Did Hamas enjoy that much support? They are Islamists harbouring extremists elements. Unless you are equating Hamas (and their extremist elements) with all Palestinians which would be wrong, but it would be a mistake the western public would also make after all this. Which would therefore offer justification for a potentially indiscriminate response. That's I believe what you were also implying.

    Indeed, the cries for revenge have been heard far and wide, not calls for a restoration of order hopefully followed by a better arrangement. It was "mighty vengeance" that Netanyahu promised. Not exactly a call for restraint that one.
    Last edited by Alastor; October 08, 2023 at 07:38 AM.

  3. #63
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    During the course of yesterday, while broadcasting the murder, mutilation, and rape of women, old people, and children live on social media, Hamas - and the Palestinians as a whole - lost a significant part of their Western supporters.

    Considering the mood of the world right now, Israel has probably been given the green light, from now on it can do whatever it wants. The question is how far Netanyahu - or if the unity government is formed, then the political elite - will go.
    I would like a link to some credible media outlet in which they talk about those broadcasted rapes.

    The Western world has been giving the green light to the atrocities committed by Israel for many years. I rather think that now Netanyahu should be very careful with what he does, avoid now reaching the last straw of the patience of the Western world. You know that we are sensitive people, deep down we cannot stand many images of children shot or crushed by bombs.

    Edit: This, seriously: I would like a link to some credible media outlet in which they talk about those broadcasted rapes.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 08, 2023 at 07:38 AM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    The Western world has been giving the green light to the atrocities committed by Israel for many years. I rather think that now Netanyahu should be very careful with what he does, avoid now reaching the last straw of the patience of the Western world. You know that we are sensitive people, deep down we cannot stand many images of children shot or crushed by bombs.
    I would have really liked to agree... but it does depend on whose bombs and whose children.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    During the course of yesterday, while broadcasting the murder, mutilation, and rape of women, old people, and children live on social media, Hamas - and the Palestinians as a whole - lost a significant part of their Western supporters.
    Considering the mood of the world right now, Israel has probably been given the green light, from now on it can do whatever it wants. The question is how far Netanyahu - or if the unity government is formed, then the political elite - will go.
    Its the ultimate litmus test. Hamas' war crimes against Israel's war crimes. What's really unfortunate is that the latest reconciliation between Israel and Arab states could give way to new movements in Gaza and get rid of Hamas. Instead, we have the conflict served to Iranian control in a gold platter. Maybe we're slowly pushed towards a larger conflict in the region between Iran and Israel by both sides.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; October 10, 2023 at 04:41 AM. Reason: Off-topic.
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #66
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    No, he is right, the corpse of a blonde child counts as five corpses of dark-skinned children.

  7. #67
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    @Siblesz

    My comment was rhetorical/sarcastic. I know what egypts policy is. The point being the Palestinians fate is also a product of indifference from their own supposed fellow muslim brothers in the arab world.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #68
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel



    "Your guys killed one of our guys, as retaliation we killed 20 of your guys, stop killing us or else!".
    Looks like the definition of non-proportional response. Reminds me of pogroms or of the germans in ww2 killing entire villages for a couple of their lost men.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  9. #69
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Did Hamas enjoy that much support? They are Islamists harbouring extremists elements. Unless you are equating Hamas (and their extremist elements) with all Palestinians which would be wrong, but it would be a mistake the western public would also make after all this. Which would therefore offer justification for a potentially indiscriminate response. That's I believe what you were also implying.
    Of course, and it goes without saying that Hamas doesn't even represent the will of everyone trapped in the Gaza strip, let alone Palestinians living in the semi-autonomous West Bank who are governed under the Palestinian Authority led by the Fatah party, which also hates Hamas as mortal enemies. Nuance is lacking as usual for such a complicated matter, since it is easier to paint everything with wide brushes rather than understanding the situation in full. Mithridates is right about one thing, though, the Palestinian cause of liberation and nationhood has probably been irreparably damaged after this catastrophic event, and we have Hamas to thank for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @Siblesz

    My comment was rhetorical/sarcastic. I know what egypts policy is. The point being the Palestinians fate is also a product of indifference from their own supposed fellow muslim brothers in the arab world.
    While the Shiite theocracy of Iran has no problem using Sunni Palestinians as cannon fodder in their proxy war against Israel, Arab countries like Jordan and Lebanon have had violent interactions with Palestinian refugees in the past, including their involvement in the Lebanese Civil War. Therefore, they are not exactly sympathetic to the militant Hamas crazies who inhabit the Gaza strip and call for constant Jihad against all Jews in Israel. Even Egypt has largely shut down and destroyed the smuggling tunnel system leading into Gaza following the 2007 takeover by Hamas. Despite this, neighboring countries absolutely have to consider taking in a flood of Palestinian refugees from Gaza, because things are only going to get uglier.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post


    "Your guys killed one of our guys, as retaliation we killed 20 of your guys, stop killing us or else!".
    Looks like the definition of non-proportional response. Reminds me of pogroms or of the germans in ww2 killing entire villages for a couple of their lost men.
    Maximizing casualities among their own people is part of Hamas’s strategy, as well as the inevitable result of their tactics. For example, if Hamas didn’t launch rockets at Israeli cities from launchers within crowded civilian neighborhoods, civilians would not be incidentally killed when Israel destroys those launchers.

    Generally, there are two types of proportionality discussed in relation to warfare. First, there is the rule of proportionality drawn from the Geneva Convention, which requires that the anticipated incidental loss of human life and damage to civilian objects should not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected from the destruction of a military objective. This is open to a fair bit of interpretation, because military advantage is hard to quantify, but “pogroms” and “the germans in ww2 killing entire villages for a couple of their lost men” that you mention, would be clear violations of this rule.

    The second type of proportionality is the absurdity implied in your post. According to this notion, the US should have only destroyed an equal number of Japanese ships to those the Japanese sunk at Pearl Harbor, rather than defeating Japan in the war they started. Likewise, according to the rationale of your post, if Israel simply allowed many more of its citizens to be killed rather than prioritizing their lives, then Israel would be justified in taking the military action it does, which again is ridiculous.
    Last edited by sumskilz; October 08, 2023 at 10:23 AM. Reason: needed some more commas
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  11. #71
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    When this conflict ends Netanyahu must resign because what has happened under his premiership now is a collosal disaster for Israel. There are rumors that Israel has asked truce in order to save the hostages Hamas has taken(more than 100 civilians and soldiers) which means that Israel is incapable of controlling the situation. The first line of defence around Gaza has completely collapsed which means that Hamas militants pour into Israel in small groups and kill whoever they see. Bombing Gaza is easy but what you do when Hamas brings again ang again forces of 10-20 militants to carry out attacks inside Israel?

  12. #72
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    When this conflict ends Netanyahu must resign because what has happened under his premiership now is a collosal disaster for Israel. There are rumors that Israel has asked truce in order to save the hostages Hamas has taken(more than 100 civilians and soldiers) which means that Israel is incapable of controlling the situation. The first line of defence around Gaza has completely collapsed which means that Hamas militants pour into Israel in small groups and kill whoever they see. Bombing Gaza is easy but what you do when Hamas brings again ang again forces of 10-20 militants to carry out attacks inside Israel?
    "There are rumors that Israel has asked truce in order to save the hostages Hamas has taken"

    From where RT?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #73
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    When this conflict ends Netanyahu must resign
    Netanyahu resign? That will be sth alright. What next? Will MBS step down and make Saudi Arabia a democracy?
    Last edited by Alastor; October 08, 2023 at 10:17 AM.

  14. #74
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Netanyahu resign? That will be sth alright. What next? Will MBS step down and make Saudi Arabia a democracy?
    I rather imagine Netanyahu will be able to pin the failure on somebody else - he seems quite good at escaping the consequences of his actions.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    "Your guys killed one of our guys, as retaliation we killed 20 of your guys, stop killing us or else!".
    Looks like the definition of non-proportional response. Reminds me of pogroms or of the germans in ww2 killing entire villages for a couple of their lost men.
    One side wants to kill all the jews, which reminds me of the germans in ww2...

  16. #76
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    One side wants to kill all the jews, which reminds me of the germans in ww2...
    Hamas doesn't give a ### about your Jewish neighbor

  17. #77

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Hamas doesn't give a ### about your Jewish neighbor

    For Muslims, jihad against the Jews is as inevitable as the day of judgement. That’s partly why Muslims around the world are celebrating what’s happening in Israel right now. Hamas simply sees themselves as the tip of the spear, as do their supporters in Gaza and worldwide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamas Charter/Mission Statement
    'The day of judgment will not come about until moslems fight jews and kill them. Then, the jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'o moslem, there is a jew hiding behind me, come and kill him. ' (article 7)

    'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... And have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the french revolution, the communist revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the freemasons, rotary clubs and the lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out zionist interests... They stood behind world war i ... And formed the league of nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind world war ii, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it. ' (article 22)

    'Zionism scheming has no end, and after palestine, they will covet expansion from the nile to the euphrates river. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'protocols of the elders of zion'. ' (article 32)

    'The Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against world zionism... Islamic groups all over the arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering jews. '
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  18. #78
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    we were doing very well not confusing Hamas, the Palestinians and the Muslim community in general

  19. #79

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Muslims around the world? Exeggarate much?
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #80
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Interesting how the media covers the conflict. It seems that Hamas killed about 250 civilians in a music event, among them many foreigners. Whenever in the past such an atrocity was carried out we had breaking news and media talked about it for weeks. Currently media have completely muted that event. Perhaps they have orders to downgrade the whole situation? I dont know

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