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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #41
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Considering the fact that we've seen videos with Hamas in Israeli military bases, even a video with a general captured i think Israel has suffered a serious military disaster. I cannot comprehend the details though. Its unacceptable for Israel. When this situation ends some heads must roll and i am not referring to Palestinian heads

  2. #42

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Hamas elements still cause conflicts within Israel from time to time. Currently, the Israeli army has still not been able to maintain full control within the country. An operation to be carried out in Gaza would also bring tension between Egypt and Israel. Rather than entering the whole of Gaza, Israel can escalate the situation to a certain point by bombing and besieging it.

  3. #43
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Your question mischaracterizes my assertion, but I have noticed that those with seemingly little concern about Russia’s tactics have suddenly become human rights activists in this thread.
    And the opposite. I have also noticed that a lot of human right activists have turned to Israel apologists in articles and social media. It is not dry cut though; a lot of journalists / politicians / public personas that were mostly uncaring about civilian casualties in Ukraine display the same indifference now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I won't defend Israel's tactics which are extreme (especially for how densely packed Gaza is and how many cannot escape being in the crosshairs), but there is not much of a comparison here if we're talking about Russian actions in Ukraine. Israel targets apartments where rockets are launched into their territory, which is bad enough. What Russia has done is far worse. They just indiscriminately target random apartment blocks, public parks, shopping malls, etc. hundreds of miles from any battle front as far away as Lviv near the border with Poland to terrorize Ukrainian civilians who live relatively close to Polish towns under NATO protection.
    That. So glad someone said it before I have to type it.
    +rep RV.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 07, 2023 at 02:15 PM.
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  4. #44
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Well be a little fair to Russia. They are not the USSR in its heyday. Their satellite launches/placements are not exactly robust and in many cases as with military sales they have prioritized foreign profit generating stuff over domestic need. Some of their targeting is clearly ex Soviet military infrastructure that has been redeveloped just because that is the data they have. It not like they can fly drones and air assets and have blanket satellite coverage like the US in A-stan constantly and pull a super accurate strike to kill Ayman al-Zawahiri on a balcony with a salad slicer weapon. Sure I don't think they care but not sure they have a choice in many cases but the lowest potential denominator just shoot and hope.
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Nonsense. Please see below.
    Gaza has a population of 2.3 million people living on a 23 km long x 7-12km wide stretch of land, in the desert. They don't produce nearly enough to feed and maintain that population, so they are at the mercy of donations and aid in order to survive. You're allowed to travel, but can only do so with the permission of the state of Israel.

    "In February 2016, Israel implemented a new policy allowing any Gazan, for the first time in 20 years, to go via Israel to Jordan in order to travel abroad. However, the new policy came with a stiff requirement: Gazans must commit to not return to Gaza via Israel for at least 12 months."
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/...-air-prison-15

    And that is IF the state of Israel even allows you to leave, which in most of the cases they receive, they just ignore. And if you are allowed to leave, who knows what happens (arbitrary interrogations, torture are not uncommon by the IDF).
    https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/i/israel/israel946.pdf

    So basically, if you're a person who is born in Gaza, your options for a better life are really shite. It's not a concentration camp of course... that is implied exaggeration for a literary purpose of effect, but let's just say the place is more akin to an open air prison for the 2 million people inhabiting the place.

    "Moreover, figures published by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) indicate that the poverty rate in the Strip has reached 53 percent, with one-third (33.7 percent) of Gaza residents living in extreme poverty."
    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...reme%20poverty.
    Last edited by Siblesz; October 07, 2023 at 06:34 PM.
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  6. #46
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Err and they can't travel via Egypt why?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Err and they can't travel via Egypt why?
    "The Egyptian authorities closed the Rafah border crossing with Gaza for long periods after 2014 following political unrest in Egypt. Rafah has been mostly operational since mid-2018, and was open for 95 days out of 151 in the first five months of 2022."
    https://www.unicef.org/mena/document...kade-june-2022

    They close/open the border arbitrarily. And have to get permit that takes up to 4 weeks, plus pay a hefty sum.

    "Gaza-based companies charge $1,000 to expedite the journey to Cairo, including registration, private taxis and other documentation.

    The return costs $600, making the entire trip more expensive than most Gazans can afford."

    "'Palestinians are forced to register their names on a waiting list weeks before they plan to travel, and still transit is not guaranteed.

    To be assured of travel, Palestinians have in recent years resorted to paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars to private companies and middlemen offering the "VIP" services.

    This has bred frustration towards Egyptians perceived to be profiting from the trade.

    Palestinians wait their turn to cross into Egypt through the Rafah border crossing; Palestinians are forced to register their names on a waiting list weeks before they plan to travel, and still transit is not guaranteed
    Palestinians wait their turn to cross into Egypt through the Rafah border crossing; Palestinians are forced to register their names on a waiting list weeks before they plan to travel, and still transit is not guaranteed SAID KHATIB AFP
    There was a brief period in the Hamas era when transit through Rafah was easier.

    In 2013, when Egypt was ruled by late president Mohammed Morsi, a Muslim Brotherhood member less hostile to Hamas, a record half a million Palestinians crossed through Rafah.

    But numbers fell dramatically after Morsi's ouster in July of that year.

    Under current President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, Egypt periodically opens and closes Rafah, a tactic allowing it to exercise leverage over Hamas.

    380 km in four days
    Several Gazans who recently made the trip through Rafah spoke with AFP, on condition they not be named for fear of being blacklisted by Egypt for future travel.

    A man who asked to be called Ahmed said his return from Cairo earlier this year, a road trip that should take about five hours, stretched over four days.

    First, he hired a private taxi that left Cairo at 4:00 am on a Wednesday with an agreement to drive him to Rafah for $130.

    The Rafah border crossing is notorious for being a costly and bureaucratic nightmare
    The Rafah border crossing is notorious for being a costly and bureaucratic nightmare SAID KHATIB AFP
    The journey was halted at the entrance to the Suez canal zone, where the vehicle crossing was closed and packed with taxis.

    He left his cab, shared the cost of another with five other passengers and slept in the car.

    At the checkpoint, he said, "the Egyptians opened all my bags. They confiscated my cologne, my cigarettes, opened my Facebook and WhatsApp profiles and looked at my photos."

    After three security checks he was travelling smoothly through the Sinai until he reached another checkpoint 50 kilometres from Rafah late Thursday afternoon, where the Egyptians announced the road's closure.

    He said he rented a "totally filthy" room in the nearby town of al-Arish and stayed for two days until the road reopened.

    Ahmed and his companions rushed to Rafah but missed that day's hour-long window to cross.

    Devastated, he slept on the street and crossed the next day."
    https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...egypt-journeys
    Last edited by Siblesz; October 07, 2023 at 09:37 PM.
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  8. #48
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post
    Gaza has a population of 2.3 million people living on a 23 km long x 7-12km wide stretch of land, in the desert. They don't produce nearly enough to feed and maintain that population, so they are at the mercy of donations and aid in order to survive. You're allowed to travel, but can only do so with the permission of the state of Israel.

    "In February 2016, Israel implemented a new policy allowing any Gazan, for the first time in 20 years, to go via Israel to Jordan in order to travel abroad. However, the new policy came with a stiff requirement: Gazans must commit to not return to Gaza via Israel for at least 12 months."
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/...-air-prison-15

    And that is IF the state of Israel even allows you to leave, which in most of the cases they receive, they just ignore. And if you are allowed to leave, who knows what happens (arbitrary interrogations, torture are not uncommon by the IDF).
    https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/i/israel/israel946.pdf

    So basically, if you're a person who is born in Gaza, your options for a better life are really shite. It's not a concentration camp of course... that is implied exaggeration for a literary purpose of effect, but let's just say the place is more akin to an open air prison for the 2 million people inhabiting the place.

    "Moreover, figures published by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) indicate that the poverty rate in the Strip has reached 53 percent, with one-third (33.7 percent) of Gaza residents living in extreme poverty."
    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...reme%20poverty.
    Yeah, it's pretty nuts, and if they truly belong to the state of Israel, then they are clearly second-class citizens. I know Hamas would never accept it since they are stupidly and/or ideologically hellbent on the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews more than anything else, but Palestine being its own independent nation would honestly alleviate most of these tensions. The millions of Palestinians trapped there don't deserve to be cannon fodder, especially the ones desperately trying to leave or at the very least avoid bullets and bombs.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    So basically, if you're a person who is born in Gaza, your options for a better life are really shite. It's not a concentration camp of course... that is implied exaggeration for a literary purpose of effect, but let's just say the place is more akin to an open air prison for the 2 million people inhabiting the place.
    “Open air prison” is a catchphrase repeated so often I have to wonder which propagandist coined it. Has a nice ring to it I’ll admit. And yet how many prisons allow the prisoners to continue firing heavy weapons and launching armed attacks into the surrounding neighborhoods on and off for years? It should be fairly obvious these attacks, like the ones we are seeing now, are exactly why those travel restrictions are in place. I’m sure you understand that any other country facing such constant attacks and threats would do alot more than just launch some counter-raids into the area or make a state of the art missile system to shoot down incoming rockets. Like say, harvest their organs. Or maybe send them to “job training centers.” At least, that’s what some countries do when Muslim minorities are perceived to be a threat. I shudder to think what would happen if they actually were.
    Last edited by Legio_Italica; October 07, 2023 at 09:58 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  10. #50

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    “Open air prison” is a buzzword repeated so often I have to wonder which propagandist coined it. Has a nice ring to it I’ll admit. And yet how many prisons allow the prisoners to continue firing heavy weapons and launching armed attacks into the surrounding neighborhoods on and off for years? It should be fairly obvious these attacks, like the ones we are seeing now, are exactly why those travel restrictions are in place. I’m sure you understand that any other country facing such constant attacks and threats would do alot more than just launch some counter-raids into the area or make a state of the art missile system to shoot down incoming rockets. Like say, harvest their organs. Or maybe send them to “job training centers.” At least, that’s what some countries do when Muslim minorities are perceived to be a threat. I shudder to think what would happen if they actually were.
    Maybe you should go live in Gaza for a bit. I'm sure you'd change your mind if you did. I'm sure it's a lovely, comfortable place where you would love to bring up your children. Maybe you should even consider moving there for good... you know, enjoy the good life of Gaza. I heard they have nice beaches.

    Oh wait... even the beach is screwed up over there:
    "Some studies have estimated that as a result of inadequate treatment, up to 108,000 cubic meters of untreated sewage is now discarded directly into the sea every day, and reserves of potable water have significantly diminished. A public health emergency now looms for the nearly 2 million Palestinians who live in the Gaza Strip, many of whom are refugees and the descendants of refugees from the 1948 war that established Israel’s independence.

    According to the World Health Organization, waterborne diseases constitute about one-fourth of all illnesses in the Gaza Strip. A 2018 study by the Rand Corp. was likewise clear in its conclusion, predicting an imminent spike in bacterial, parasitic and viral infections such as cholera, giardia and viral meningitis, respectively.

    “We’re just sitting,” said Jabar Shamalakh, 21, sprawled on a plastic chair at the beach on a recent afternoon, at the center of a circle of his friends. He said it had been five years since he had been in the water. For his friend Loay Hamouda, 23, it was three years. For Ahmad Arafat, 21, a year and a half.

    “It’s deeply frustrating,” Arafat said. “I miss the sea. I used to surf sometimes. But now I can’t.” Shamalakh paused for a moment when asked what he missed most about feeling the water on his skin.

    “Joy,” he said. “When it’s clear, we feel the joy.”

    A cascade of wastewater from the Baydar area of Gaza pours into the Mediterranean Sea. (Loay Ayyoub for The Washington Post)
    The sheer amount of sewage washing into the sea has had consequences for the wider region — including for Israel, where the nearby coastal city of Ashkelon has experienced the effects of Gaza’s sanitation breakdown. A study published in March by *EcoPeace Middle East demonstrated that sewage from Gaza had washed up on nearby beaches, as well as interfered with the operations of Ashkelon’s desalination plant."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...055_story.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Yeah, it's pretty nuts, and if they truly belong to the state of Israel, then they are clearly second-class citizens. I know Hamas would never accept it since they are stupidly and/or ideologically hellbent on the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews more than anything else, but Palestine being its own independent nation would honestly alleviate most of these tensions. The millions of Palestinians trapped there don't deserve to be cannon fodder, especially the ones desperately trying to leave or at the very least avoid bullets and bombs.
    If the state of Israel had a brain, they would have provided the basis and support for a stable, wealthy Palestinian state. Instead, they have been trying to sabotage every attempt to create such a state, and instead partitioned off the West Bank into hundreds of little pieces and blockaded Gaza for two decades.
    Last edited by Siblesz; October 07, 2023 at 10:03 PM.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    If the state of Israel had a brain, they would have provided the basis and support for a stable, wealthy Palestinian state. Instead, they have been trying to sabotage every attempt to create such a state, and instead partitioned off the West Bank into hundreds of little pieces and blockaded Gaza for two decades.
    Iím pretty sure the Israelis are hard at work on that wealthy, stable, independent Islamic state. Theyíre calling it ďEast Turkestan,Ē if memory serves.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  12. #52

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    This is why calls for negotiations with Hamas have always been as ludicrously foolish as calls for Ukraine to negotiate with Russia, or calls to negotiate with the Ebola virus would be.

    I say Israel should do the same thing I say Ukraine should do once they take back Crimea. Round up the squatters, allow one suitcase per family, and march them over the border at gunpoint. Better yet, dump them in Iran.
    Isn't that basically advocating ethnic cleansing?

  13. #53

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I’m pretty sure the Israelis are hard at work on that wealthy, stable, independent Islamic state. They’re calling it “East Turkestan,” if memory serves.
    What does China have to do with Gaza? Not so sure. As for Xinjiang, I am in no way in favor of the policies of the Chinese government's treatment of Uighurs. I consider their policies short-sighted and stringent. IMO the best way to deal with such issues is to create vibrant, open economies that spur the local people to become wealthier and better educated. And you should never punish entire populations for the extremist view of the 1%. Poverty and punishment only breeds more extremism and hatred.

    The Chinese government got the economics side of the thing right, but they punish Uighurs for practicing their own culture and religion, which is going to come bite them in the ass one day in the future. Now China is strong. If one day China's government becomes weakened or there is a civil war, I'm sure Xinjiang will revert back to Uighur rule. The fake smiles of the Uighurs are hiding a very strong resentment against Han rule.
    Last edited by Siblesz; October 07, 2023 at 10:21 PM.
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  14. #54

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post
    What does China have to do with Gaza? Not so sure. As for Xinjiang, I am in no way in favor of the policies of the Chinese government's treatment of Uighurs. I consider their policies short-sighted and stringent. IMO the best way to deal with such issues is to create vibrant, open economies that spur the local people to become wealthier and better educated. And you should never punish entire populations for the extremist view of the 1%. Poverty and punishment only breeds more extremism and hatred.

    The Chinese government got the economics side of the thing right, but they punish Uighurs for practicing their own culture and religion, which is going to come bite them in the ass one day in the future. Now China is strong. If one day China's government becomes weakened or there is a civil war, I'm sure Xinjiang will revert back to Uighur rule. The fake smiles of the Uighurs are hiding a very strong resentment against Han rule.
    I’m glad we agree, though I hope for your sake you’re using a solid VPN. As for Gaza, I’m all for the people there becoming productive and healthy Israeli citizens. Around 20% of their friends and relatives already are. Trouble is, Hamas and their supporters would rather do what they are doing now.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  15. #55

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Israelís casualties for the first day are now being reported as ~300 killed and ~1500 wounded. Only 26 of the dead have been identified as soldiers. Itís likely that many more civilians died than have been counted, since Hamas likes to drag off bodies to defile in various ways and post videos of as trophies, plenty of which are already circulating on the internet. They will no doubt hold those bodies hostage along with the roughly 50 live Israelis they claimed to have captured, offering to exchange them for convicted terrorists.

    In addition to the holiday, itís now being reported that the shortage of soldiers on the Gaza front was also due to units being relocated to the West Bank in order to deal with unrest (among both extremist settlers and Palestinians) and to the north because of tensions with Hezbollah.

    Four divisions of reservists are being called up to reinforce the 35 regular battalions now along the Gaza border. Many reservists are voluntarily reporting for duty who havenít been called up. Many of them are over the age that they are required to, including former prime minister Naftali Bennett.

    Several center left and center right opposition parties have offered to join a temporary government for the duration of the conflict so that Netanyahu wonít be beholden to the far right parties currently in his current coalition.

    The Palestinian Ministry of Health have reported Palestinian casualties as 232 killed and ~1,700 wounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Actually it was the day after the 50th anniversary, and other than the fact that is the High Holidays season, this may be a coincidence. Hamas has timed attacks to coincide with symbolic dates in the past, but (as I recall) never with any associated with secular Arab governments or movements, always with those significant to Islamists. Although, I have to admit that this connection didnít even occur to me, because Yom Kippur was two weeks ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  16. #56
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Bloody horrible. Hope peace can be restored soon.

    If Netanyahu weakened Israel to placate idiot coalition partners the guy should be shot for treason.

    Hard not to see a connection with the settlers getting frisky. Ordinary locals would be sick of it, providing the foot soldiers.

    As for the leaders in Gaza I don't think Hamas does things for the good of Palestinians anywhere and least of all the ones in and around Jerusalem (ie not under their terrorist rule), be great if they got taken out.

  17. #57
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Actually it was the day after the 50th anniversary,
    That the attack began a day after the official commemoration of the start of the war means absolutely nothing. During the last few months the Israeli security forces should have been hypervigilant, or more hypervigilant than usual. Don't tell me that the security forces failed because the attack was not punctual. Please don't tell me that the fiftieth anniversary of the war has no meaning for one side because "it is a secular date". I imagine an Israeli intelligence agent defending himself saying these things and I think of a spy comedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post
    What does China have to do with Gaza?
    Your location says Beijing, China. If you had indicated your location as, say, Honduras, he would have been investigating controversies in the Honduran government to throw them in your face.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 08, 2023 at 03:07 AM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    That the attack began a day after the official commemoration of the start of the war means absolutely nothing. During the last few months the Israeli security forces should have been hypervigilant, or more hypervigilant than usual. Don't tell me that the security forces failed because the attack was not punctual. Please don't tell me that the fiftieth anniversary of the war has no meaning for one side because "it is a secular date". I imagine an Israeli intelligence agent defending himself saying these things that and I think of a spy comedy.
    I think you’re over-inferring a lot from what I said. I agree that it was a very serious intelligence failure, regardless of whether or not the timing was planned to specifically coincide with the anniversary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #59
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I think you’re over-inferring a lot from what I said. I agree that it was a very serious intelligence failure, regardless of whether or not the timing was planned to specifically coincide with the anniversary.
    True, sorry.

  20. #60
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    During the course of yesterday, while broadcasting the murder, mutilation, and rape of women, old people, and children live on social media, Hamas - and the Palestinians as a whole - lost a significant part of their Western supporters.

    Considering the mood of the world right now, Israel has probably been given the green light, from now on it can do whatever it wants. The question is how far Netanyahu - or if the unity government is formed, then the political elite - will go.

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