Hamas attacks southern Israel

[sumskilz]

Sure, if hundreds of palestinians die in a day, it makes no sense to "not take sides". That's obviously a non-proportional response and a war-crime.

It’s not a war crime to target a loaded rocket launcher or a stockpile of rockets stashed in a high density urban neighborhood, but it does cause a lot of casualties. That’s what typically brings whole buildings down. Israel can’t afford to rely on the iron dome alone. The rockets and the launchers have to be targeted.

Israeli casualties are relatively low because Israel prioritizes protecting its citizens. For example, every apartment and house built in Israel since 1992 has a well-designed bomb shelter that doubles as a bedroom. Although, nearly 800 Israelis have been wounded today alone.

[alhoon]

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...-east-67037895

This is considered the biggest attack inside Israel territory since, i dont know when. There are even rumors that Hamas has captured whole settlements in the south although that could be propaganda. Some officials in Israel must loose their position because we are talking about a big failure of the Israeli secret services

There are also rumors that Netanyahu is rubbing his hands with glee as the protests against him now will stop. I.e. I don't think it is so big a failure by the Israeli secret services. To an extend, it is. But the state of Israel chose not to pursue leads because the government there would prefer some losses in order to gain back control and have a reason to counter-attack for years to come without the West nagging as much.

That said, Israel is not known for its belief on "proportional responses" and Hamas knows that. I think Hamas wanted to provoke Israel to kill thousands of Gazans in order to strengthen THEIR control on the population of Gaza.
I.e. Hamas started this knowing there will be like 2000 dead and 10000 wounded and maimed just because it is convenient for Hamas.

It is downright despicable.

[alhoon]

Indeed, I fear that Israel will use this as a pretext to literally level tens of apartment buildings and steal more land.
What prompted the "Palestinian invasion", by the way?

There have been mounting tensions for months Kyriake. They were trading shells and missiles at an increased pace. That's why many think Israel must know that the pot would boil over sooner or later.

Not sure what Hamas is trying to accomplish with this incursion, except maybe propaganda points when the inevitable Israeli counter attack and bombing of Gaza leaves scores of dead Palestinians.

Scores? They have already killed 200 people in Gaza. I expect 1500-2000 dead before the dust settles.

As for the Israeli losses, BBC reports 70 dead Israeli and dozens of kidnapped, soldiers or civilians.
This is not an everyday attack.

[Alastor]

It’s not a war crime to target a loaded rocket launcher or a stockpile of rockets stashed in a high density urban neighborhood, but it does cause a lot of casualties. That’s what typically brings whole buildings down. Israel can’t afford to rely on the iron dome alone. The rockets and the launchers have to be targeted.

It's not a war-crime if you bomb an apartment block filled with hundreds of civilians because there might be a bunch of rockets in there? So, it's perfectly fine not to care for collateral as long as you achieve your aims? I wonder how people would react if eg Russia said the same. Would it be equally ok then?

[sumskilz]

It's not a war-crime if you bomb an apartment block filled with hundreds of civilians because there might be a bunch of rockets in there? So, it's perfectly fine not to care for collateral as long as you achieve your aims? I wonder how people would react if eg Russia said the same. Would it be equally ok then?

Your question mischaracterizes my assertion, but I have noticed that those with seemingly little concern about Russia’s tactics have suddenly become human rights activists in this thread.

[irontaino]

Any idea on how they managed to catch Israel unawares?

[conon394]

Any idea on how they managed to catch Israel unawares?

Obviously don't know. But some guessing unless you have a 100% iron clad source handing you the day and time the fact is Hamas is not dumb. They move people about. Act like their going do something and not over and over. It the people going into Israel are buried in disconnected cells and none of them know the big picture and none are compromised what Israel sees may a general threat but how to pin that to a day. Given the relative effectiveness of Iron Dome you also might not panic about some sense that a particularly large rocket attack was planned.

[sumskilz]

There are also rumors that Netanyahu is rubbing his hands with glee as the protests against him now will stop. I.e. I don't think it is so big a failure by the Israeli secret services. To an extend, it is. But the state of Israel chose not to pursue leads because the government there would prefer some losses in order to gain back control and have a reason to counter-attack for years to come without the West nagging as much.

That’s the type of rumor that can only be believed if you don’t know much about Israeli politics and culture. This can very easily be cast by the opposition as a major failure on Netanyahu’s part, whether that’s true or not, and will simultaneously cause major friction within his coalition. The parties to his right will demand a response that is harsher than Israel could manage without massive damage to its international relations, and even if this doesn’t bring the government down, Netanyahu’s weak (in their eyes) response will certainly be used by those parties to siphon away support from Likud in the next election. The opposition will blame Netanyahu for tearing the country apart when he should have been focusing on issues that matter, such as security.

Any idea on how they managed to catch Israel unawares?

One factor is that it is a major holiday today, and most of the soldiers were on vacation. I recall something like this happening before. Still, it seems like there was also an intelligence failure. If signs were actually ignored, I’d guess it was wishful thinking coupled with a desire to deescalate, because Netanyahu has been trying play nice with Gaza for the sake of the US visa waiver program and Saudi normalization. His coalition is also in shambles with constant internal drama even at the security briefings, so that couldn’t help.

EDIT: More accurately, it has been a major holiday all week.

[conon394]

One factor is that it is a major holiday today

But given the past you would think some people would get triple time pay to stay on the job... My father back in day for the UAW never missed a chance to work Easter or Christmas for the pay if company was in a rush to build cars (it was either triple time or double with addition vacation days that is more like 2:1)

[Alastor]

Your question mischaracterizes my assertion, but I have noticed that those with seemingly little concern about Russia’s tactics have suddenly become human rights activists in this thread.

Oh does it now? Didn't you state that it's not a war-crime to target an apartment block because there might be rockets in it and it's sth that has to be done? Yes you did. You didn't as such assert that achieving your aims of "protecting Israel" is what matters, collateral casualties be damned. Again, yes, you did say all that and it is telling that instead of acknowledging it, you try to deflect with some vague accusation about "those". Well, deflect away, your post is there for all to read.

[Roma_Victrix]

Oh does it now? Didn't you state that it's not a war-crime to target an apartment block because there might be rockets in it and it's sth that has to be done? Yes you did. You didn't as such assert that achieving your aims of "protecting Israel" is what matters, collateral casualties be damned. Again, yes, you did say all that and it is telling that instead of acknowledging it, you try to deflect with some vague accusation about "those". Well, deflect away, your post is there for all to read.

I won't defend Israel's tactics which are extreme (especially for how densely packed Gaza is and how many cannot escape being in the crosshairs), but there is not much of a comparison here if we're talking about Russian actions in Ukraine. Israel targets apartments where rockets are launched into their territory, which is bad enough. What Russia has done is far worse. They just indiscriminately target random apartment blocks, public parks, shopping malls, etc. hundreds of miles from any battle front as far away as Lviv near the border with Poland to terrorize Ukrainian civilians who live relatively close to Polish towns under NATO protection.

Just as insidious, I've seen some rightwing conspiracy theory idiots both online and in bizarre real life encounters try to argue online that Russia was just targeting underground biological weapons labs the evil Ukrainian Nazis were building under apartment buildings, thus they were legitimate military targets.

[Alastor]

I won't defend Israel's tactics which are extreme (especially for how densely packed Gaza is and how many cannot escape being in the crosshairs), but there is not much of a comparison here if we're talking about Russian actions in Ukraine. Israel targets apartments where rockets are launched into their territory, which is bad enough. What Russia has done is far worse. They just indiscriminately target random apartment blocks, public parks, shopping malls, etc. hundreds of miles from any battle front as far away as Lviv near the border with Poland to terrorize Ukrainian civilians who live relatively close to Polish towns under NATO protection.

Just as insidious, I've seen some rightwing conspiracy theory idiots both online and in bizarre real life encounters try to argue online that Russia was just targeting underground biological weapons labs the evil Ukrainian Nazis were building under apartment buildings, thus they were legitimate military targets.

If you won't defend, then don't defend. The point here is that what Israel is doing is really bad and that if it was done by some other country their excuses would not be accepted as easily. As for whether what Russia has done is worse, well of course it is worse when it's being presented left and right as worse. How do we even know that Israel only targets apartment blocks with rockets in it? The media tells us and we believe them... and who tells the media? You are really going to tell me there is no bias here?

[Lord Thesaurian]

It's always the same. Hamas "attacks" Israel (after being placed into a corner and closed off inside of a concentration camp for the last fifty years with zero recourse for improvement), they kill a few Israelis. Israel "defends" itself by bombing the shaiza out of Gaza, killing a few thousands, leveling entire buildings down into dust, and making a few "defensive" raids into Gaza.

Nonsense. Please see below.

Gaza isn’t a concentration camp. Respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of states and non-interference in internal affairs of sovereign states represent basic norms governing international relations. Gaza and related issues are Israel’s internal affairs that brook no interference by any external forces. I support Israel’s implementation of "one country, two systems" in the Gaza Special Administrative Region.

I maintain that all parties should abide by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and the principles of universality, impartiality, objectivity and non-selectivity, respect the right of the people of each state to choose independently the path for human rights development in accordance with their national conditions, and treat all human rights with the same emphasis.

I call upon all states to uphold multilateralism, solidarity and collaboration, and to promote and protect human rights through constructive dialogue and cooperation. I oppose politicization of human rights and double standards. I also oppose unfounded allegations against Israel out of political motivation and based on disinformation, and interference in Israel’s internal affairs under the pretext of human rights.

The legitimate rights and interests of the people of all ethnic groups in Gaza have been protected. All ethnic groups, regardless of their population, have the same legal status and enjoy various rights in accordance with the law, including participation in the management of state affairs, freedom of religious belief, receiving education, using their own languages, and preserving their traditional culture.

[sumskilz]

But given the past you would think some people would get get triple time pay to stay on the job...

You would think so, but Hamas posted a punch of videos of them capturing what appeared to be unmanned posts and bulldozing the security fence in several places without taking any fire. This morning there were also reports of people fighting Hamas infiltrators with only personal weapons with the IDF nowhere to be seen. This is really not a good look.

Oh does it now? Didn't you state that it's not a war-crime to target an apartment block because there might be rockets in it and it's sth that has to be done? Yes you did. You didn't as such assert that achieving your aims of "protecting Israel" is what matters, collateral casualties be damned. Again, yes, you did say all that and it is telling that instead of acknowledging it, you try to deflect with some vague accusation about "those". Well, deflect away, your post is there for all to read.

No, I said you can “target a loaded rocket launcher or a stockpile of rockets stashed in a high density urban neighborhood”, and yes, my post is there for all to read.

[PointOfViewGun]

I won't defend Israel's tactics which are extreme (especially for how densely packed Gaza is and how many cannot escape being in the crosshairs), but there is not much of a comparison here if we're talking about Russian actions in Ukraine. Israel targets apartments where rockets are launched into their territory, which is bad enough. What Russia has done is far worse. They just indiscriminately target random apartment blocks, public parks, shopping malls, etc. hundreds of miles from any battle front as far away as Lviv near the border with Poland to terrorize Ukrainian civilians who live relatively close to Polish towns under NATO protection.

Just as insidious, I've seen some rightwing conspiracy theory idiots both online and in bizarre real life encounters try to argue online that Russia was just targeting underground biological weapons labs the evil Ukrainian Nazis were building under apartment buildings, thus they were legitimate military targets.

Russia and Israel use the same excuses to target such tactics: Palestinian/Ukrainian fighters supposedly using civilian buildings to attack from or hide in. Such arguments only work selectively. Is it OK to carpet bomb Tel Aviv because the Israeli defence ministry complex is in the middle of the city? Is it OK to level the entire Palestinian Tower in the middle of Gaza because some rockets were fired around it?

You would think so, but Hamas posted a punch of videos of them capturing what appeared to be unmanned posts and bulldozing the security fence in several places without taking any fire. This morning there were also reports of people fighting Hamas infiltrators with only personal weapons with the IDF nowhere to be seen. This is really not a good look.

Not just a bad look but one that should have been impossible for Israeli security. The images from this morning simply doesn't make sense.

[Papay]

Some people blame the fanaticism of Hamas but Israel has heavy responsibility because they have isolated 2 million people in a small strip for years now. They dont have connection with the outside world. Imagine if you were born in Gaza. You would have Hamas above your head claiming that Israel and Jews hate you, they want you imprisoned and they are responsible for the fact that every 2-3 years air strikes kill hundreds of Palestinians. It is very easy to radicilize Gaza children.

[mishkin]

"Hamas’s surprise attack on Israel, on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war, will be remembered as an intelligence failure for the ages"

If this was a surprise, the Israeli intelligence services are made up of monkeys

[Nebaki]

Israel is paying the price for not entering Gaza. Despite all the losses it would suffer, Israel should have entered Gaza and cleared it house by house, shelter by shelter. Even if his losses would be heavy at that time, it would not have succumbed to this raid today. Your warplanes and missiles are useful against other countries. Your Electronic Warfare ability is useful against technological armies. However in the geography where the fronts are intertwined, these are useless against armies using mechanical weapons. Geography is Palestine's advantage. You cannot use technology in a war where the sides are intertwined. If Hamas tries to negotiate over captives, it will lose. Israel has to sacrifice the captives. If they do this Israel will win. If Israel negotiates for captives, neither side will win.

But this would be to the detriment of Hamas as it would be more alert to infiltration from now on. Nothing will be the same after this attack. That's why Hamas and all Palestinians must fight together. If they don't they will have to emigrate. If Israel wanted, it could solve this problem through peace. Israel has the power to dissolve the Palestinians within itself. But Israel does not want this either.

Gaza is now the target and those who stay in Gaza will die.

[Papay]

And the question is: Will Israel bomb its own country to defeat the militants or will it send troops risking many losses?

[Nebaki]

And the question is: Will Israel bomb its own country to defeat the militants or will it send troops risking many losses?

The situation would be very different if Palestinian organizations will be able establish connections with the West Bank and divide Israel into two. The IDF still hasn't recovered from the shock. They don't know what to do, they don't know how far thousands of civilians and enemies have penetrated. Hamas is really well prepared and if they disable the air bases, Israel will be defeated in urban warfare.