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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #2941

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It wouldn't make sense when you'd add other cases that Israel tried to lie about dead babies, wouldn't it? I'm not surprised you view major Israeli lies as mere milking material.

    Israel releases images of babies murdered and burned by Hamas as 'verified photos' of others beheaded by terrorists are 'confirmed' by local media and rescue team reveals pregnant woman 'had child sliced from her womb'
    A rescue team who visited the kibbutz, where the smell of rotting bodies still hangs in the air, told how they saw a pregnant lady lying on the floor of the first house they walked into. When they turned her over, they saw that her unborn baby had been sliced from her womb.
    'We saw a pregnant lady lying on the floor, and then we turn her around and see that the stomach is cut open, wide open,' Yossi Landau, an aid worker at the NGO Zaka, told i24News, his voice cracking with emotion.
    'The unborn baby, still connected with umbilical cord, was stabbed with a knife. And the mother was shot in the head. And you use your imagination, trying to figure out what came first.'
    Israel releases images of slain children to rally support
    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office also released on social media a picture of a dead infant in a pool of blood and the charred body of a child, part of an apparent effort to stoke global anger against the Gaza militants over Saturday's attack.
    I saw a baby who had been baked in an oven, says Israeli emergency worker
    An Israeli emergency worker has claimed he saw the remains of a baby who had been baked to death in an oven by Hamas terrorists at Kibbutz Kfar Aza on October 7.
    A flood of misinformation shapes views of Israel-Gaza conflict
    One such story is an allegation that Hamas beheaded babies in Kfar Azza, a kibbutz near Israel’s southern border with Gaza. The unconfirmed story appears to stem from a single Israeli news report on Tuesday.
    On Wednesday, the Israeli prime minister’s office appeared to validate the report, with a spokesperson saying the babies were found with their “heads decapitated.” The claim went viral, spreading across newspapers, social media platforms and a CNN broadcast.

    Only two infants are known to have died on October 7. One is Mila Cohen, a 10-months old baby, shot. The other is the baby of a pregnant Bedouin woman who didn't survive his mother being shot. There is an other one if you up the age threshold to 3 years. None of them beheaded. None of them burned. None of them knifed. Yet, its how Israelis advertised October 7 to the world. In some cases they backtracked but only quietly for the lies they were shouting.
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  2. #2942
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    I'm not the one milking it, you are. You mention this one incident on almost every page of this thread. You constantly repeat it, as if this one instance of bad reporting proves some grand conspiracy.
    Hamas murdered men, women, and children. They murdered entire families whole. They went door to door and shot people, and set houses on fire on top of their residents. They've raped, mutilated, beheaded, and kidnapped civilians. They murdered infants, pregnant women, holocaust survivors, and paraplegics. They've committed a genocidal act of unmatched brutality. Hamas are utter scum that deserve nothing less than eradication. Continuing to milk the same story being untrue over and over and over again for over a year won't change that.

  3. #2943
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    U.S. Questions Israel After ‘Horrifying’ Strike in Northern Gaza Kills Dozens (The New York Times)

    An Israeli strike on a residential building in northern Gaza killed dozens of people early Tuesday, the territory’s emergency service said, in the latest attack to cause mass casualties in the area since Israel renewed its offensive against Hamas in the north.

    The Palestinian Civil Defense, the emergency service, said at least 55 people were killed in the strike in the town of Beit Lahia. Gaza’s health ministry said at least 93 people were dead, including 25 children. The Israeli military said in a statement that it was “aware of reports that civilians were harmed” in the town and was looking into the details.
    The Israeli army has been doing this for a year. More than 40,000 dead, most of them women and children.

  4. #2944

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'm not the one milking it, you are. You mention this one incident on almost every page of this thread. You constantly repeat it, as if this one instance of bad reporting proves some grand conspiracy.
    Hamas murdered men, women, and children. They murdered entire families whole. They went door to door and shot people, and set houses on fire on top of their residents. They've raped, mutilated, beheaded, and kidnapped civilians. They murdered infants, pregnant women, holocaust survivors, and paraplegics. They've committed a genocidal act of unmatched brutality. Hamas are utter scum that deserve nothing less than eradication. Continuing to milk the same story being untrue over and over and over again for over a year won't change that.
    No one said you're milking it. That you try to downplay and misrepresent such cases of blatant false propaganda by Israel as "milking it" speaks a lot by itself. Last time I mentioned it was 5 pages before this instance. 11 pages before that sumskilz used a quote that used the same lies as if they were true to argue that its what makes Israel immune to criticism. The closest mention of mine to that was 16 pages before from sumskilz's post. That reminded me of yet an other case Israel lied about babies; babies killed and hanged on laundry wires by Hamas.

    It's telling that while I referenced multiple different instances of Israel lying about babies (beheaded, burned in oven, knifed from their mother's wombs, etc.) you only picked one to have a fight over. Clearly, the "brutally genocidal Hamas" narrative doesn't hold up on its own if we base it on facts. It's been shown that Israeli authorities systematically lied about what happened on October 7 as they tried to create an extreme case for international reaction. It's not me milking such stories but Israel itself that's milking so many falsehoods to act with as much brutality as they can in Gaza.

    The mere analysis of accuracy of Israel's claims are often shut down. You help to propagate the same lies. The sheer amount of false testimonies that came out of October 7 is mind numbing. Apart from the Bedouin woman, whose baby died after birth which is one of the only two infants that died on October 7, do you know how many pregnant women actually died that day?
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  5. #2945

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The vast majority of Israelis reject the term on the grounds that Arabs are not being expelled (with some specific exceptions, which I’ll address). Each time Israel has annexed territory, the existing population has been granted permanent resident status with a path to citizenship. Permanent residents have all the rights and benefits that citizens do except that they can’t vote in national elections (only local). In total, about 300,000 Arabs live in Area C of the West Bank, a significant portion of whom are Bedouins who tend not to identify as Palestinians. Therefore, annexation of some or all of Area C is not considered a demographic threat.

    That said, the Israeli left opposes unilateral annexation of any part of Area C, while the center and some of the center right have a lot of trepidation about the idea. They prefer the legitimacy of maintaining the possibility of a negotiated settlement regarding borders, even though most doubt such an agreement is possible within their lifetimes. They see annexation as a symbolic act that would only really benefit the more hardline right and far right, while limiting Israel’s chances of normalization with more Arab nations. Everyone is aware that Arab leaders don’t actually care much, if at all, about the Palestinian cause, but have to pretend to.

    You will hear the term ethnic cleansing used by Israeli academics and activists on the far left to describe policies that most Israelis support or are at least indifferent to. The three examples I can think of: 1) Arabs from Areas A and B are not granted building permits in Area C and are expelled if they build anyway. This is justified by the fact that the Oslo Accords grant Israel full civilian administration over Area C. 2) If an Israeli citizen can prove that they have legal ownership of a property in the West Bank because it was seized from their ancestors during the 1948 war, the court will usually rule that any current residents will have to leave within a certain time period or start to pay rent. 3) The one-kilometer buffer zone that is being created around the perimeter of Gaza. This was mostly farmland, but some Palestinians will be displaced. Most Israelis see this as justified on security grounds, and a reasonable consequence of the October 7th attack. Plus, the alternative of creating a buffer zone inside of Israel would be seen as punishing the victims.
    Sumskilz, you do realize that Palestinians being forbidden from development of Area C and the administration of Area C by Israel are huge obstacles that make Area C largely non-viable for Palestinians to live in? On the one hand, Area C was intended to be transferred over to the Palestinian Authority, but on the other Israel has de-facto made settlement of that area by Palestine impossible, they take every opportunity to strengthen Israel's claim over the area, and they make it difficult for Palestinians who already live in Area C to continue living there?

    This is before we even get to East Jerusalem where Palestinians are regularly evicted from whether by legitimate or illegitimate lawfare. Where walls and checkpoints have made East Jerusalem less viable to live in by damaging its economy. Sure, a lot of these things can be justified by "security", but it is rather easy to see how the mandate of security can be taken advantage of to subtly and not-so-subtly remove Palestinian presence from areas long-claimed by Israel.

    The idea that simply changing the demographic makeup of a territory should be considered ethnic cleansing, even in the absence of expulsion, isn’t something I’ve ever heard discussed in Israel.
    Well forget that, Israel has been slowly encroaching and removing Palestinians in the last 30 years, ethnic cleansing is in effect what's been happening. Some of the right and far-right aren't even shy about saying that this is exactly what they are doing.

  6. #2946
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Belgian MP confronts Israeli ambassador, in a heated exchange in the Belgian parliament on 22 October. Needless to say, he's absolutely right.There's nothing more to say. English subtitles

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #2947
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No one said you're milking it. That you try to downplay and misrepresent such cases of blatant false propaganda by Israel as "milking it" speaks a lot by itself. Last time I mentioned it was 5 pages before this instance. 11 pages before that sumskilz used a quote that used the same lies as if they were true to argue that its what makes Israel immune to criticism. The closest mention of mine to that was 16 pages before from sumskilz's post. That reminded me of yet an other case Israel lied about babies; babies killed and hanged on laundry wires by Hamas.

    It's telling that while I referenced multiple different instances of Israel lying about babies (beheaded, burned in oven, knifed from their mother's wombs, etc.) you only picked one to have a fight over. Clearly, the "brutally genocidal Hamas" narrative doesn't hold up on its own if we base it on facts. It's been shown that Israeli authorities systematically lied about what happened on October 7 as they tried to create an extreme case for international reaction. It's not me milking such stories but Israel itself that's milking so many falsehoods to act with as much brutality as they can in Gaza.

    The mere analysis of accuracy of Israel's claims are often shut down. You help to propagate the same lies. The sheer amount of false testimonies that came out of October 7 is mind numbing. Apart from the Bedouin woman, whose baby died after birth which is one of the only two infants that died on October 7, do you know how many pregnant women actually died that day?
    It's true that some Zaqa volunteers provided false statements, which were then spread by media. That doesn't make it some grand conspiracy. You can keep trying to defend the actions of terrorists and to muddy the waers, but in doing so you will continue to illicit nothing but disgust.

  8. #2948
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    Every day Israel massacres around 100 women and children in random bombings. In the meantime it blocks humanitatirian aid causing famine and other issues. How many Palestinians are dead by now? 400.000?500.000? The biggest genocide of the 21st century.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; November 01, 2024 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Disruptive.

  9. #2949

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It's true that some Zaqa volunteers provided false statements, which were then spread by media. That doesn't make it some grand conspiracy. You can keep trying to defend the actions of terrorists and to muddy the waers, but in doing so you will continue to illicit nothing but disgust.
    It's not just some random ZAGA volunteer testimony that were spread by fringe media outlets. The lies have been propagated by Israeli officials, ambassadors, ministers, lawmakers, spokespersons and Netanyahu among others. In turn, officials from other countries talked about how they were shown evidence of such acts from Israeli authorities. The tweet from Prime Minister of Israel account with pictures of charred remains of babies is still up. The tweet with the video of the Israeli rear admiral talking about the calendar in Arabic as if it shows the name of the terrorist names is still up. So on and on. Israeli propaganda is so bad that it doesn't take lot to realize that its false propaganda.

    There is, of course, other sides to Israeli propaganda as well:
    Israel Reportedly Used Fake Social Media Accounts To Garner Support From US Lawmakers On Gaza War
    Citing four unnamed officials, the Times report said the campaign was carried out by Stoic, a political marketing firm in Tel Aviv, on the orders of the Israeli Ministry of Diaspora Affairs.
    The campaign reportedly relied on “hundreds of fake accounts posing as real Americans,” which posted pro-Israel content on multiple social media platforms including X, Facebook and Instagram.
    The fake accounts specially focussed on Black Democratic lawmakers—like House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, D-N.Y., and Sen. Raphael Warnock, D-Ga.—and made posts urging them to continue funding Israel’s war effort.
    According to the Times, the campaign remains active on X and relies on content generated using OpenAI’s chatbot ChatGPT.
    Nothing I point out here defends the actions of anyone. I can't be defending an action that turns out to be non-existent. The feelings of disgust should be directed at those that lie about dead babies to dehumanize others. Why didn't you tell me how many pregnant women were killed on October 7 by the way?
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  10. #2950
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The vast majority of Israelis reject the term on the grounds that Arabs are not being expelled (with some specific exceptions, which I’ll address). Each time Israel has annexed territory, the existing population has been granted permanent resident status with a path to citizenship. Permanent residents have all the rights and benefits that citizens do except that they can’t vote in national elections (only local). In total, about 300,000 Arabs live in Area C of the West Bank, a significant portion of whom are Bedouins who tend not to identify as Palestinians. Therefore, annexation of some or all of Area C is not considered a demographic threat.

    That said, the Israeli left opposes unilateral annexation of any part of Area C, while the center and some of the center right have a lot of trepidation about the idea. They prefer the legitimacy of maintaining the possibility of a negotiated settlement regarding borders, even though most doubt such an agreement is possible within their lifetimes. They see annexation as a symbolic act that would only really benefit the more hardline right and far right, while limiting Israel’s chances of normalization with more Arab nations. Everyone is aware that Arab leaders don’t actually care much, if at all, about the Palestinian cause, but have to pretend to.

    You will hear the term ethnic cleansing used by Israeli academics and activists on the far left to describe policies that most Israelis support or are at least indifferent to. The three examples I can think of: 1) Arabs from Areas A and B are not granted building permits in Area C and are expelled if they build anyway. This is justified by the fact that the Oslo Accords grant Israel full civilian administration over Area C. 2) If an Israeli citizen can prove that they have legal ownership of a property in the West Bank because it was seized from their ancestors during the 1948 war, the court will usually rule that any current residents will have to leave within a certain time period or start to pay rent. 3) The one-kilometer buffer zone that is being created around the perimeter of Gaza. This was mostly farmland, but some Palestinians will be displaced. Most Israelis see this as justified on security grounds, and a reasonable consequence of the October 7th attack. Plus, the alternative of creating a buffer zone inside of Israel would be seen as punishing the victims.

    Proposals regarding voluntary transfer are now openly discussed. Specifically, the idea of offering Palestinian families large sums of money to emigrate. On the far right this is seen as perfectly reasonable. The mainstream right sees it more like a lesser of evils solution. It’s been criticized as an implausible solution, in that few Palestinians are likely to accept, and countries would be reticent to accept them under the circumstances. On the left, the criticism is that with an ongoing conflict it can’t really be seen as entirely free of coercion, and therefore would not be entirely voluntary.

    The idea that simply changing the demographic makeup of a territory should be considered ethnic cleansing, even in the absence of expulsion, isn’t something I’ve ever heard discussed in Israel.
    How many money would you take to leave Israel?

  11. #2951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    How many money would you take to leave Israel?
    How much do you offer? or maybe you want to make some point? Could you explain if that is so? It's really simple what you want to say, but you have to say it or it's just a one liner. I would leave my country for money. I have done it before. Does that answer your generic question?
    Last edited by mishkin; November 01, 2024 at 07:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    How much do you offer? or maybe you want to make some point? Could you explain if that is so? It's really simple what you want to say, but you have to say it or it's just a one liner. I would leave my country for money. I have done it before. Does that answer your generic question?
    You would completely abandon your country, your home and your friends for some money? Well ok, i guess some people would do it, the majority wouldnt do it. The phrase "banality of evil" comes to mind. When you accept the mass killing of Palestinians, giving them money to steal their homes without killing them seems moral...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    You would completely abandon your country, your home and your friends for some money? Well ok, i guess some people would do it, the majority wouldnt do it.
    I don't believe that the phenomenon of leaving your country for economic reasons is news to you. It can not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    The phrase "banality of evil" comes to mind. When you accept the mass killing of Palestinians, giving them money to steal their homes without killing them seems moral...
    I personally do not agree with anything you are saying, but again I encourage you to elaborate your ideas, in this case how immoral it would be for the Israeli government to propose the alternative of murder or money in exchange for leaving their homes. It seems to me that you are exaggerating greatly what sumskilz has tried to explain. He himself argues that it is reasonable to consider offering money to Palestinians right now as coercion.

    I wish the Gazans had been offered money in exchange for leaving their homes. It would have been totally immoral, an exercise in disgusting bullying, but we have already seen what the alternative was. I personally prefer a refugee to a corpse. You prefer martyrs for the cause perhaps?
    Last edited by mishkin; November 01, 2024 at 09:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I don't believe that the phenomenon of leaving your country for economic reasons is news to you. It can not be.



    I personally do not agree with anything you are saying, but again I encourage you to elaborate your ideas, in this case how immoral it would be for the Israeli government to propose the alternative of murder or money in exchange for leaving their homes. It seems to me that you are exaggerating greatly what sumskilz has tried to explain. He himself argues that it is reasonable to consider offering money to Palestinians right now as coercion.

    I wish the Gazans had been offered money in exchange for leaving their homes. It would have been totally immoral, an exercise in disgusting bullying, but we have already seen what the alternative was. I personally prefer a refugee to a corpse. You prefer martyrs for the cause perhaps?
    As i said the phrase "banality of evil" comes to mind. If you asked a white southerner before the civil war he would use similar arguments trying to justify slavery. Since we feed them, he would say, they are happy and we are moral. When radical evil becomes the normal, anything less than that seems better.

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    There has been talk of buying the expulsion of Palestinians. The far right is completely in favour of it, the Israeli left obviously considers it immoral. Have you understood this? Is there something I said that you didn't understand?

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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    There has been talk of buying the expulsion of Palestinians. The far right is completely in favour of it, the Israeli left obviously considers it immoral. Have you understood this? Is there something I said that you didn't understand?
    Bying the expulsion of Palestinians eh? How much would YOU take in order to loose your house permanently and having yourself expelled from your country forever?

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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    You have absolutely no interest in discussing what sumskilz mentioned. You just want personal allusions. I would accept 100,000 euros without hesitation. If you have any offer to make me, send it to me by private message.

  18. #2958

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You have absolutely no interest in discussing what sumskilz mentioned. You just want personal allusions. I would accept 100,000 euros without hesitation. If you have any offer to make me, send it to me by private message.
    You're jumping the gun by not reading the post Papay was responding to as it was sumskilz that mentioned paying Palestinians to leave Palestine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You're jumping the gun by not reading the post Papay was responding to as it was sumskilz that mentioned paying Palestinians to leave Palestine.
    I know exactly what sumskilz is talking about. I have mentioned sumskilz in some of my answers. We have discussed the issue of buying the expulsion of Palestinians before.
    If you have any problems with any of my posts, please point them out to me. And if you think I haven't understood any of Papay's messages (in fact, I have had a hard time understanding some of his posts) maybe you can do me the favor of clarifying them for me.

  20. #2960

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Sumskilz, you do realize that Palestinians being forbidden from development of Area C and the administration of Area C by Israel are huge obstacles that make Area C largely non-viable for Palestinians to live in? On the one hand, Area C was intended to be transferred over to the Palestinian Authority, but on the other Israel has de-facto made settlement of that area by Palestine impossible, they take every opportunity to strengthen Israel's claim over the area, and they make it difficult for Palestinians who already live in Area C to continue living there?
    Area C was initially about 74% of the West Bank. Other than the Wye River Memorandum which reduced Area C to about 61%, the details of when and how much of Area C Israel would withdraw from were never worked out because of the Second Intifada, and there has been no agreement since.

    The land that became Area C became so specifically because it was very sparsely populated. It had mostly been public land under the preceding three governments. Palestinians who already live in Area C can build in Area C, but those Palestinians who live under the PA’s jurisdiction can only build in areas under the PA’s jurisdiction. Israel considers Area C to be disputed territory. It is governed with the consideration that any part of it may become part of Israel. Accordingly, Arabs living there when Israel took control of it, and their descendants, can continue living there, but migration from Areas A and B isn’t permitted. If Palestinians want sovereignty over more of Area C, they are going to have to negotiate for it. Israel isn’t likely to unilaterally cede any of it in the absence of a final agreement regarding borders.

    While the West Bank is ideologically important to a growing minority of Israelis, the average Israeli doesn’t care one way or another about any of it, other than the Old City of Jerusalem. They don’t live there, they don’t visit, and they wouldn’t even think about it if it weren’t for the fact that even in more peaceful times, there is a terrorist attack emanating from there nearly every other day. These attacks fail more often than not, but everyone is aware that they’re incentivized by large payments (over $300 million annually) from the internationally recognized, ostensibly moderate, Palestinian government. For that reason, few will complain about the aspects of policy that keep the source of the terrorism at a further distance.

    That said, many Israelis are irritated by the ruling coalition’s priorities. A lot of money is spent protecting the settlements out in the middle of the West Bank, which few Israelis live in. It would be much more cost effective to protect Israel proper and the main settlement blocs near the green line. Likewise, there are housing shortages in the areas along the coast where most Israelis want to live, while the coalition prioritizes new housing in places only the ideologues care about. The new housing in East Jerusalem gets filled up with Haredi families, who aren’t even Zionists, but live there because they’re poor and the housing is cheap for what you get, and if they get stabbed to death on a walk home from shul or blown up on a bus, at least they can feel confident that they’ve secured their place in Olam haBa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    This is before we even get to East Jerusalem where Palestinians are regularly evicted from whether by legitimate or illegitimate lawfare. Where walls and checkpoints have made East Jerusalem less viable to live in by damaging its economy. Sure, a lot of these things can be justified by "security", but it is rather easy to see how the mandate of security can be taken advantage of to subtly and not-so-subtly remove Palestinian presence from areas long-claimed by Israel.

    Well forget that, Israel has been slowly encroaching and removing Palestinians in the last 30 years, ethnic cleansing is in effect what's been happening. Some of the right and far-right aren't even shy about saying that this is exactly what they are doing.
    Despite whatever far right harassment and fantasies exist, the Arab population of Israel and the Palestinian territories is continuing to increase at a rapid rate. The controversial issues that underlie this framing are generally obscured by a massive amount of hyper-partisan BS and foreign ignorance. The following taken from a 2013 article about the Negev Bedouin is a good example of what I’m referring to:

    There is nothing new in the intense interest foreigners take in the Israeli-Arab conflict. But the concentrated flurry of discussion and activism abroad over the government’s so-called Prawer-Begin plan to resettle some of the Bedouin population in the Negev took many Israelis by surprise. ...

    The idea of the plan — developed in the Prime Minister’s Office Planning Directorate headed by Udi Prawer, and advanced by former cabinet minister Benny Begin — is to move some of the Negev’s Bedouin, Arab Israelis who lead a semi-nomadic lifestyle, off of unrecognized hamlets on state land and into cities. ...

    For Israelis watching the burgeoning international opposition to the program, the surprise stems from the sense here at home that the question of Bedouin settlement is a domestic issue, not part of the Arab-Israeli conflict that reliably draws the passion of foreign activists.

    After all, the Bedouin are Israeli citizens. Their sons serve in the IDF.

    But it wasn’t the British activists or European parliamentarians who set the tone in framing the Bedouin resettlement debate as part of a generations-long Arab-Jewish war.

    Israeli Arab leaders, never ones to miss an opportunity to benefit from populist rabble-rousing, teamed up with the most incendiary of Jewish politicians to transform a carefully crafted development scheme, cultivated over several years by professional planners and economists, into a nationalist tug-of-war.

    “This is a transfer plan,” declared Balad MK Jamal Zahalke in a recent Knesset Interior Committee debate that had to be stopped several times as MKs were ushered out for shouting wildly. “It is a colonial scheme!” he added.

    Never one, for her part, to miss a chance to shout at an Arab MK, Jewish Home MK Orit Strock screeched her own reply to Zahalke: “The Negev belongs to the people of Israel [i.e., Jews] and we are allowing you to live there!” …

    One key problem with this spectacularly excessive rhetoric is that for all the noise it generates, it fails to provide actual information to its audience.

    For example, one cannot discover from the Rabbis for Human Rights video that almost half of the Bedouin being moved — roughly 15,000 – actually asked to be moved, even appealing to courts to get the state to grant them a new planned town in a separate location because the site where they had encamped was too close to the chemical works of Ramat Hovav, Israel’s main hazardous waste disposal facility.

    Similarly, Guardian readers had no way of finding out in the paper’s coverage or the artists’ letter that Israel has already recognized several of the haphazard tent-cities of the Bedouin “dispersion,” but could not keep doing so indefinitely for the simple reason that the Negev Bedouin are the fastest growing population in the world, according to the Israeli government. They double their population every 15 years, and are expected to reach 300,000 by 2020. There simply isn’t any sustainable way to accommodate such a fast-growing population without municipal planning and multi-story housing.

    And nowhere in the EU Parliament’s gathering of Socialists and Democrats could one learn that the Bedouin are being moved just three to five kilometers down the road from their current place of residence, and not out of the country…
    Indeed, the entire discussion is taking place without basic polling data about what the Bedouin themselves – not the wealthy leadership but the overwhelmingly poor families living in the tent cities – think about the plan. Do they reject the government’s offer of modern housing, running water, sanitation and paved roads? The Bedouin leadership says yes; government planners say otherwise.

    One would think that activists claiming to be fighting on the Bedouins’ behalf would seek out – and then deploy as their primary weapon – the opinions of the Bedouin themselves.

    It is in these missing details that the narratives of clashing national movements, state oppression or ethnic cleansing break down. But these are merely errors of omission. The new-found cause celebre of foreign activists also suffers from misnomers and oversimplification.

    For example, the British press habitually calls the Bedouin simply “Palestinians.” But the Bedouin are not “Palestinian” in the sense meant by the Guardian, as an expression of a coherent national identity or political loyalty. Indeed, a key divide in Jordanian society separates the Bedouin from the Palestinians. More to the point, any discussion of the Negev Bedouins’ plight that does not mention their loyal IDF military service misunderstands and misrepresents their predicament.

    Unlike the refugee question in the peace talks with the Palestinians, the question of Bedouin resettlement is not about demographics or Israel’s “Jewishness.” After all, the Bedouin are already Israeli citizens. Their demographics are part of the fabric of the Israeli state, come what may.

    None of this is an argument for the Prawer plan. The plan itself can and must be subjected to intense public scrutiny. Are the Bedouin receiving enough financial compensation for the eminent domain-style resettlement? Are the planned towns to which they are being moved sufficient to their present and future needs, and do they respect their cultural norms as much as possible?

    Honest observers can disagree on these questions, and it is the Bedouins’ right as citizens to lobby, campaign and demonstrate about them. ...
    I would add that the Palestinians with the help of their international supporters have always been better at the PR game than Israelis are. Part of this is simply due to the fact that most Israelis consider it pointless to bother to try to explain the Israeli position, because they assume that people only believe the horrendous allegations made about Israelis because they are antisemitic. The number of Israelis who speak English well and regularly engage with the international media can be counted on one hand, and one of them is the notorious liar Netanyahu.

    Gil Hoffman, the director of HonestReporting, observed that:

    When it comes to messaging, Israel has three separate audiences: domestic to make the public feel safe; its enemies to deter them; and the international community. The messaging that is effective for audiences one and two repels audience three, causing constant damage.
    Which is a dynamic that played out heavily during the first few months of the current war. Plus having Ben Gvir in the ruling coalition makes the problem worse, despite most Israelis having a quite negative opinion of him. If he had his way, Israel would become rather a lot like what its worst critics claim it already is.

    Regarding East Jerusalem, there are no checkpoints in city, but there are checkpoints to enter, because it’s treated as part of Israel, which it is under Israeli law. Arabs who live in East Jerusalem are permanent residents, or citizens, with all the legal protections that entails. The drastic downturn in the economy is because of the current war. East Jerusalem is heavily dependent on tourism. In any case, I’m sure being well-connected to Israel is better for their economy than being able to get to Ramallah without going through a checkpoint.

    A poll of East Jerusalem and West Bank Arabs from 2022:

    Today, half (48%) of the city’s Palestinian residents say that, if they had to make a choice, they would prefer to become citizens of Israel, rather than of a Palestinian state. From 2017 to early 2020, that figure hovered around just 20%. Today, only a minority (43%) of East Jerusalemites say they would pick Palestine; while the remainder (9%) would opt for Jordanian citizenship. Among West Bankers, the comparable figures are Israel, 25%; Palestine, 65%; Jordan, 10%.

    Significantly, this sharp contrast is now evident on other, related questions as well. For instance, in East Jerusalem, 63% agree at least “somewhat” with this purposely provocative statement: “It would be better for us if we were part of Israel, rather than in Palestinian Authority or Hamas ruled lands.” In the West Bank, the corresponding figure is less than half that proportion (28%).
    Oddly, Shfa News in Ramallah claimed that a 2021 poll found that 93% of Arabs in Jerusalem preferred Israeli rule over the Palestinian Authority. If that’s accurate, I’d really like to see how the framed the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    How many money would you take to leave Israel?
    I’m far from a representative sample, considering I moved from my home country to Israel as an adult eleven years ago, plus N=1.
    Last edited by sumskilz; November 01, 2024 at 03:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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