Hamas attacks southern Israel

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Arch-terrorist Yahya Sinwar, head of Hamas and architect of 7/10...

[mishkin]

Arch-terrorist Yahya Sinwar, head of Hamas and architect of 7/10...

So now Israel is going to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank and abandon the invasion of Lebanon? Is Israel finally going to stop bombing and invading its neighbors? Are there no more excuses? (That was a sarcastic comment, you should at least remember the hostages).

Edit: And Israel is redefining its borders again thanks to that man, don't be so hard on him. Israel should bury him next to Golda Meir.

[Alastor]

So now Israel is going to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank and abandon the invasion of Lebanon? Is Israel finally going to stop bombing and invading its neighbors? Are there no more excuses?

[Papay]

https://twitter.com/UNLazzarini/stat...11994673479973


In the meantime Israel continues its war against his most dangerous enemies:Humanitarian organisations and the women and children of Gaza

[mishkin]

Wait. Why wasn't Sinwar hiding among civilians in some refugee camp or hospital? what happened to the strategy of using human shields? Why was he alone with two other militiamen in the middle of the ruined Gaza?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Wait. Why wasn't Sinwar hiding among civilians in some refugee camp or hospital? what happened to the strategy of using human shields? Why was he alone with two other militiamen in the middle of the ruined Gaza?

He was in Rafah (remember all eyes on rafah?), and was hiding in the same tunnel where 6 recently murdered hostages were found. After IDF forces approached he had the hostages murdered and fled with his 2 bodyguards, but was unable to get to safety. That's why there was speculation for a month or so that he might already be dead since he was out of contact. May his memory be a curse.

So now Israel is going to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank and abandon the invasion of Lebanon? Is Israel finally going to stop bombing and invading its neighbors? Are there no more excuses? (That was a sarcastic comment, you should at least remember the hostages).

Are the hostages back home? Has Hamas been removed from power? Has it accepted terms? The answer to all of this is no, and thus no is also the answer to your question.

Edit: And Israel is redefining its borders again thanks to that man, don't be so hard on him. Israel should bury him next to Golda Meir.

The land borders of Israel have not changed since 1981 (I specify land since there was recently a maritime border treaty with Lebanon). There is no redefining of borders happening.
No change of borders is worth the lives lost on 7/10.

[Muizer]

That is enough baiting for now.Thread reopened. Please debate respectfully and refrain from personal attacks and intentionally disruptive remarks. No hate-speech allowed either.

[chriscase]

Please note from the Mudpit Rules:

Relevant portion of Rule #2

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In order for this discussion to stay open, all participants must restrain themselves. This does not mean facts cannot be discussed. However, posters must take care to present those facts in precise, well-sourced, and dispassionate terms. Hyperbole, broad comparisons to notorious mass murderers of the past, and dehumanizing language must be avoided.

Some earlier posts in this thread may not have complied entirely with this rule, and those posts may be looked at. However, this rule must be adhered to moving forward. Continued inflammatory posts will be removed.

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As usual, commentary on moderation is off topic in this thread.

[Ludicus]

Netanyahu's Likud Party Backs 'Preparing to Settle Gaza'

According to The Times of Israel, 10 of the 32 Likud members of the Knesset and one Cabinet member, Social Equality Minister May Golan—a self-described "proud racist"—said they would attend the event. Haaretz said far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu, and Periphery Development Minister Yitzhak Wasserlauf are also expected to attend. Other Knesset lawmakers who say they'll go to the conference include Deputy Knesset Speaker Nissim Vaturi—who once called for Gaza to be "wiped off the face of the Earth"—and Tally Gotliv, who said Israel should use nuclear weapons for "crushing and flattening Gaza without mercy."

Israel is at war with the UN, without which it would not exist as a country. There is no memory of a country that has enjoyed such impunity. Netanyahu's extremist government spares no means to achieve its goals, aiming to exterminate and expel a people to whom no rights are recognized, condemned to die of hunger or be burned alive in refugee camps. Today, speaking of humanitarian law has become almost contemptible when it comes to Gaza, yet obligatory when war crimes can be attributed to Russia. Netanyahu is free to do as he pleases in the weeks leading up to Biden's succession and will continue to bomb Gaza and Lebanon while encouraging attacks in the West Bank. Between war and peace, he has chosen to escalate a conflict in a region that will plunge into permanent war.

[PointOfViewGun]

Video shows moment Israeli strike flattened building in Beirut



It's hard to understand what Israel is really trying to do in Lebanon.

[Ludicus]

Foreign ministers’ statement on legislation against United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East under consideration by the Israeli Knesset GOV.UK

Foreign Ministers express grave concern over legislation currently under consideration by the Israeli Knesset aimed at revoking the privileges and immunities of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East [UNRWA]

“We, the Foreign Ministers of Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, Republic of Korea and the United Kingdom, express our grave concern over legislation currently under consideration by the Israeli Knesset, aimed at revoking the privileges and immunities of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East [UNRWA], forbidding any contact between Israeli state entities, officials and UNRWA, and prohibiting any UNRWA presence within Israel.

“UNRWA provides essential and life-saving humanitarian aid and basic services to Palestinian refugees in Gaza, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and throughout the region. Without its work, the provision of such assistance and services, including education, health care, and fuel distribution in Gaza and the West Bank would be severely hampered if not impossible, with devastating consequences on an already critical and rapidly deteriorating humanitarian situation, particularly in northern Gaza.

“It is crucial that UNRWA and other UN organizations and agencies be fully able to deliver humanitarian aid and their assistance to those who need it most, fulfilling their mandates effectively. We urge the Israeli Government to abide by its international obligations, keep the reserve privileges and immunities of UNRWA untouched and live up to its responsibility to facilitate full, rapid, safe and unhindered humanitarian assistance in all its forms as well as the provision of sorely needed basic services to the civilian population

Cutting off Unrwa would deeply harm Israel's reputation, says UK minister

Nothing Israel does will further damage its reputation, which is already at an all-time low.
-
PS.I don't think it's worth mentioning that I have the utmost respect for the Jewish people, as I do for all peoples, but just in case, I'll say it. We shouldn't confuse peoples with the governments of a particular nation.

[PointOfViewGun]

Nothing Israel does will further damage its reputation, which is already at an all-time low.

Exactly like how Russia behaves. The slippery slope the West utilizes with Israeli crimes likely embolden Russia in its quest to do to Ukrainian what Israel does to Palestinians.

[mishkin]

Arch-terrorist Yahya Sinwar, head of Hamas and architect of 7/10...

What is now delaying the end of the invasion of Gaza and Lebanon? See the results of the elections in the United States?

[alhoon]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lost-vote...210000106.html

Ignore the parts of the article about the USA elections. This is what I want to focus on:
"European Hospital’s wards full of women and children who had been maimed"
+
"there’s a tradition now that the Palestinians have where before you go to sleep, you say goodbye to your family because you never know if you’re going to wake up,” said Fahs, a Lebanese American. “And you say your testimonies of faith, in case you pass away in your sleep.”

Aside of the obvious with the above, the human suffering of some people that have been lived under Hamas' brutal rule only to be subjected to such horrors now, is the following:
What do you think those kids that see siblings and parents maimed, that are instructed to say goodbye to loved ones because they don't know if they will wake up, will grow up to be?
A) well adjusted citizens with moderate views?
B) Fodder for those that would radicalize them exploiting their trauma?

Israel's actions ensure there will be tens of thousands of militants targeting them in 5-15 years.

[Ludicus]

Opinion article. Published today in the newspaper Publico.

A New Language of Warfare
By Luís Pardal

Since the beginning of the invasion of Gaza, we have witnessed the use of a new language of warfare.
Israel does not attack or invade territories; it retaliates and conducts exercises in preventive self-defense. It does not kill patients, doctors, and nurses in hospitals; it eliminates terrorists disguised as patients. It does not bomb schools, hospitals, mosques, residential buildings, and cemeteries; it destroys Hamas cells. It does not force the population to move from one place to another; it asks them to relocate to safe zones before bombing their homes, shelters, tents, and outdoor spaces. It does not kill thousands of children; it gets rid of the human shields of terrorists. It does not let people starve; it prevents food from falling into the hands of Hamas.
In short, it does not kill; rather, it is the Palestinians who die. This new language has reached such a high level that to oppose Israel’s actions is now considered antisemitism, and any criticism of the criminal behavior of the Israeli state is regarded as hate speech. It seems increasingly difficult to state that criticism of this barbarity carried out by this state is simply an exercise in common sense to defend the dignity of any human being.

--

The slippery slope the West utilizes with Israeli crimes likely embolden Russia in its quest to do to Ukrainian what Israel does to Palestinians.

I hope not.
There are substantial differences. Ukraine will lose some territories, but it will not cease to exist as an independent country at the end of the war, nor will its entire population be expelled from Ukraine.
Secondly, the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, apartheid and genocide, has no parallel in modern history.

Omar Bartov, an Israeli Holocaust historian, has already compared Germany's war of annihilation with Israeli methods and propaganda. As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel

(...)Unlike the majority of Israelis, these young people had seen the destruction of Gaza with their own eyes. It seemed to me that they had not only internalised a particular view that has become commonplace in Israel – namely, that the destruction of Gaza as such was a legitimate response to 7 October – but had also developed a way of thinking that I had observed many years ago when studying the conduct, worldview and self-perception of German army soldiers in the second world war. Having internalised certain views of the enemy – the Bolsheviks as Untermenschen; Hamas as human animals – and of the wider population as less than human and undeserving of rights, soldiers observing or perpetrating atrocities tend to ascribe them not to their own military, or to themselves, but to the enemy.
...Knowing that I had previously warned of genocide, the students were especially keen to show me that they were humane, that they were not murderers. They had no doubt that the IDF was, in fact, the most moral army in the world. But they were also convinced that any damage done to the people and buildings in Gaza was totally justified, that it was all the fault of Hamas using them as human shields.
They showed me photos on their phones to prove that they had behaved admirably toward children, denied that there was any hunger in Gaza, insisted that the systematic destruction of schools, universities, hospitals, public buildings, residences and infrastructure was necessary and justifiable. They viewed any criticism of Israeli policies by other countries and the United Nations as simply antisemitic.
Unlike the majority of Israelis, these young people ( soldiers) had seen the destruction of Gaza with their own eyes. It seemed to me that they had not only internalised a particular view that has become commonplace in Israel – namely, that the destruction of Gaza as such was a legitimate response to 7 October – but had also developed a way of thinking that I had observed many years ago when studying the conduct, worldview and self-perception of German army soldiers in the second world war. Having internalised certain views of the enemy – the Bolsheviks as Untermenschen; Hamas as human animals – and of the wider population as less than human and undeserving of rights, soldiers observing or perpetrating atrocities tend to ascribe them not to their own military, or to themselves, but to the enemy.
Thousands of children were killed? It’s the enemy’s fault. Our own children were killed? That is certainly the enemy’s fault. If Hamas carry out a massacre in a kibbutz, they are Nazis. If we drop 2,000-pound bombs on refugee shelters and kill hundreds of civilians, it’s Hamas’s fault for hiding close to these shelters. After what they did to us, we have no choice but to root them out. After what we did to them, we can only imagine what they would do to us if we don’t destroy them. We simply have no choice.
In mid-July 1941, just weeks after Germany launched what Hitler had proclaimed to be a “war of annihilation” against the Soviet Union, a German noncommissioned officer wrote home from the eastern front:
The German people owe a great debt to our Führer, for had these beasts, who are our enemies here, come to Germany, such murders would have taken place that the world has never seen before … What we have seen … borders on the unbelievable … And when one reads Der Stürmer [a Nazi newspaper] and looks at the pictures, that is only a weak illustration of what we see here and the crimes committed here by the Jews (...)

Read the full article.

[mishkin]

[

Israel's actions ensure there will be tens of thousands of militants targeting them in 5-15 years.

Seriously, does anyone have any idea what Israel is doing right now? It doesn't take a year to recover hostages if that's your goal and you don't eliminate a terrorist organization by creating more hatred among the population they feed on. Is there any other answer than that they are redefining the map of the area via bombing/second and expanded Nakba?

[PointOfViewGun]

I hope not.
There are substantial differences. Ukraine will lose some territories, but it will not cease to exist as an independent country at the end of the war, nor will its entire population be expelled from Ukraine.
Secondly, the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, apartheid and genocide, has no parallel in modern history.
Omar Bartov, an Israeli Holocaust historian, has already compared Germany's war of annihilation with Israeli methods and propaganda. As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel
Read the full article.

Crimes are crimes. Whether they're committed extensively or in limited scope doesn't stop them from being crimes. Just like we know Israel wants to get rid of Palestinians bit by bit, first Gaza, then slowly West Bank, we know that Russia wants to get rid of Ukrainians, first in Crimea, second in Donbas, now in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, then in rest of Ukraine. Both Israel and Russia are doing what they can to the extent of they can get away with.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

What is now delaying the end of the invasion of Gaza and Lebanon? See the results of the elections in the United States?

The lack of a negotiated deal both sides agree upon. Reportedly there is good progress towards one in Lebanon, might even happen before the US election.

[mishkin]

The lack of a negotiated deal both sides agree upon. Reportedly there is good progress towards one in Lebanon, might even happen before the US election.

So it has nothing to do with killing Hamas leaders, right?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

So it has nothing to do with killing Hamas leaders, right?

I'm sorry, are you saying Hamas leaders shouldn't be killed?
An agreeable peace likely includes the eradication of Hamas, sending their leaders to hell is certainly a step towards that. It's also widely beleived that Sinwar was one of the factors blocking a proper negotiated hostage deal. In fact, people on this very thread argued as much when Haniyeh was killed, the supposed 'moderate'. Weren't you one of the people making that argument? Weren't you, in the aftermath of 7/10, arguing that Israel should just target Hamas leaders? Why are you now against?