Hamas attacks southern Israel

[mishkin]

The pagers were not harmeless, they injured 3500+ people, these people can no longer help the terrorist organization and Hezbollah's communication network has been damaged.




You two are upset now because Israel terrorized... members of a terrorist organization?

Are you saying that all the injured were terrorists and that only terrorists were injured? Can you add a link to that information? Seriously, don't you think this attack has affected the civilian population? Do you think it is a form of attack that any organization could legitimately use (against targets they consider enemies)? Do you think that, for example, the British government could have used it against the IRA?

[PointOfViewGun]

The pagers were not harmeless, they injured 3500+ people, these people can no longer help the terrorist organization and Hezbollah's communication network has been damaged.You two are upset now because Israel terrorized... members of a terrorist organization?

Are we? Or are you trying to distort reality for it to conform to your messed up narrative? Meanwhile many of the dead are civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah or any kind of fighting (including an 8 year old girl and an 11 year old boy who died) and hundreds of many others who have lost limbs. At least you do acknowledge that what happened was terrorism in label too. You're just trying to justify it.

Death toll from Hezbollah pager explosions in Lebanon rises to 12

Firas Abiad told a news conference that almost two-thirds of the 2,800 wounded people needed some form of surgery to their face, eyes or hands, and that many had suffered amputations.

“All hell broke loose as they started to scramble to take these people to hospital. The cars were just pushed aside as motorbikes and cars came through with people covered in blood,” she said. “One of the injured men who I saw had his eye blown out. Another one had half of his face ripped off.”

Ms Chamoun said the pagers had “emitted a sound before being detonated to encourage people to take them out of their pockets or from their desks and lift them to their heads”.

Lebanon’s health minister said an eight-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy were among the dead, as well as several healthcare workers from Dahiyeh, in southern Beirut, who had been using pagers.

Of the 2,800 people who were wounded, about 750 were in the south of Lebanon, 150 in the Bekaa Valley, and about 1,850 in the capital and its suburbs, he added.

“Unfortunately, we were not able to save a lot of eyes," Dr Elias Warrak said, adding that more than 60 to 70% of the patients ended up with at least one eye removed.
“Some of the patients, we had to remove both eyes. It kills me. In my past 25 years in practice, I’ve never removed as many eyes as I did yesterday.”

Clearly, Israel intended to have the maximum damage for anyone in the area from these pagers and not just the owners carrying them in their pockets.

[Muizer]

Yes, I have always said that Israel should launch attacks as precise as it can, it has the capabilities to do so, it has the technology, a professional army and an anti-terrorist unit that should be among the best in the world.

I'd have thought that pager operation was about as close as you can get.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'd have thought that pager operation was about as close as you can get.

How? Do the pagers have some kind of Hezbollah member identification system that makes sure the explosion happens when only a Hezbollah fighter is in the vicinity?

[Kyriakos]

It looks like this may become a massive regional war.
Reminds me of the interwar period in the Peloponnesian war, when peace between the smaller sides was also forced because there was a very scary Athens-Sparta "alliance". With the other massive ongoing war (Ukraine), there is no way the UN security council can be united, so the chance of a massive middle eastern war (from Egypt to Turkey) is ever increasing. Israeli officials keep on saying stuff like "now is the moment of truth" etc, so they clearly want that war, expecting the US to join/back them.

[mishkin]

I'd have thought that pager operation was about as close as you can get.

As I said, when they blew up those devices, they didn't know if the targets were in the middle of a crowded market or holding their children's hands. If that's how precise they can be, the Mossad is a circus.

[mishkin]

Iran attacks Israel. I would make some sarcastic comments if it weren't for the fact that the situation is horrible.

[AqD]

Are we? Or are you trying to distort reality for it to conform to your messed up narrative? Meanwhile many of the dead are civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah or any kind of fighting (including an 8 year old girl and an 11 year old boy who died) and hundreds of many others who have lost limbs. At least you do acknowledge that what happened was terrorism in label too. You're just trying to justify it

It's the terrorists' fault to hide among civilians and bring their dangerous work home.

They should have known better. If they really care about people, they should challenge Israel's F-35s and tanks in a desert somewhere and die honorably.


Terrorism breeds more terrorism. What do you expect? Tell Israel to lay down arms because they cant hit anyone behind meat shield?

[Kyriakos]

^After all, Israel challenged the british army so as to die honorably, instead of committing terrorist attacks in the mandate of Palestine.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's the terrorists' fault to hide among civilians and bring their dangerous work home.
They should have known better. If they really care about people, they should challenge Israel's F-35s and tanks in a desert somewhere and die honorably.
Terrorism breeds more terrorism. What do you expect? Tell Israel to lay down arms because they cant hit anyone behind meat shield?

If the idea of "bringing work home" covers the pagers than there is no limit to location or armed group in any part of the world. It pretty much covers every single member of any state agency. You're drowning in a slipper slope. Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, we have seen Israel targeting many members of groups it opposes without any involvement of "meat shields" that the often claim when things don't look as convenient for them.

By the way, does your logic apply to Israel equally? The headquarters of the Israeli army and Mossad is literally in the middle of Tel Aviv next to some high rises and one of the largest malls in the city.

[Gigantus]

This is probably a once in a decade occasion as discussions go, but I do agree with PofVG that this is a very slippery slope. Never mind making it hypocritical to a ridiculous extent to label anything similar (collateral damage, civilian casualties) happening to the acting party as terrorism.

While the pager issue showcases an insane level of complex preparation and no doubt had a massive impact on Hamas' command structure, never mind the psychological impact when it comes to communication devices in general, this is completely negated by the fallout from the way it was executed. I have no doubt that if it had only affected the intended targets that it would have gone down as the pinnacle of modern intelligence operations, but there really was no chance of that from the start.

The 'Mossad HQ' comparison is very apt in the context of the 'meat shield' argument.

[Papay]

What is happening in Gaza is harrowing. IDF executes and blows up civilians every day. Its obvious that its a deliberate policy of extemination. Fortunately we live during a time when every body has a cellphone and these massacres are documented. But its a very depressing thing to see

[sumskilz]

^After all, Israel challenged the british army so as to die honorably, instead of committing terrorist attacks in the mandate of Palestine.

The Haganah, which became the IDF, never carried out terrorist attacks. Irgun was responsible for the infamous King David Hotel Bombing. Although, considering that the King David Hotel was the British military headquarters in Palestine and that they warned people to leave before the bomb went off, I don’t consider it a terror attack. I still think it was wrong, but for other reasons. It was condemned by the mainstream Jewish leadership.

Irgun, and the other extremist paramilitary group Lehi, did commit some acts of terrorism however, such as Lehi’s assassination of Folke Bernadotte, and Irgun’s “revenge attacks” against Arabs, all of which were likewise condemned by the mainstream Jewish leadership in Palestine.

The Haganah, the mainstream Jewish military, didn’t really fight the British, except for a few operations to free Jewish immigrants who has been interned by the British. They also regularly sabotaged British radar stations used to track immigrant ships as well as the ships used to deport Jews. For most of its existence, the Haganah worked with the British. Ultimately they ended up using force to disband Irgun and Lehi.

I don’t think the unambiguous acts of terrorism that were perpetrated by Jewish extremist groups achieved anything of value. I also don’t see the situations as particularly comparable, except that Hezbollah’s strategy against Israel has likewise achieved nothing of value. Of course they need to hide among civilians to have any chance of survival, but then no one should be shocked that this strategy results in civilian collateral casualties.

This is probably a once in a decade occasion as discussions go, but I do agree with PofVG that this is a very slippery slope. Never mind making it hypocritical to a ridiculous extent to label anything similar (collateral damage, civilian casualties) happening to the acting party as terrorism.

While the pager issue showcases an insane level of complex preparation and no doubt had a massive impact on Hamas' command structure, never mind the psychological impact when it comes to communication devices in general, this is completely negated by the fallout from the way it was executed. I have no doubt that if it had only affected the intended targets that it would have gone down as the pinnacle of modern intelligence operations, but there really was no chance of that from the start.

The 'Mossad HQ' comparison is very apt in the context of the 'meat shield' argument.

The Mossad headquarters and the IDF administrative headquarters are in urban areas the same as the CIA headquarters and Pentagon are in urban areas in the US, and I suspect most other analogous headquarters in most countries. These all can be considered legitimate military targets, but they weren’t built where they are for the purpose of having human shields. They were built well outside of cities that subsequently expanded around them. Since most of Israel’s enemies deliberately target civilians, the point seems kind of moot.

The pager operation caused considerably less collateral casualties than targeted drone attacks (which the US uses in such circumstances) or any other means of taking out that much of the enemy command structure that I can think of. Legitimate targets are legitimate targets regardless of where they are. The civilian casualties must not be disproportionate to the expected military advantage, but in this case, the military advantage was massive and the relative civilian casualties were extremely light.

[Papay]

https://x.com/swilkinsonbc

This account documents the genocide of Palestinians. Its obvious that IDF wants to exterminate 1 or 2 million Palestinians. Mainstream media dont tell anything about this genocide but thankfully we live in times of internet so we have all these videos to prove it

[PointOfViewGun]

The Haganah, which became the IDF, never carried out terrorist attacks. Irgun was responsible for the infamous King David Hotel Bombing. Although, considering that the King David Hotel was the British military headquarters in Palestine and that they warned people to leave before the bomb went off, I don’t consider it a terror attack. I still think it was wrong, but for other reasons. It was condemned by the mainstream Jewish leadership.
Irgun, and the other extremist paramilitary group Lehi, did commit some acts of terrorism however, such as Lehi’s assassination of Folke Bernadotte, and Irgun’s “revenge attacks” against Arabs, all of which were likewise condemned by the mainstream Jewish leadership in Palestine.
The Haganah, the mainstream Jewish military, didn’t really fight the British, except for a few operations to free Jewish immigrants who has been interned by the British. They also regularly sabotaged British radar stations used to track immigrant ships as well as the ships used to deport Jews. For most of its existence, the Haganah worked with the British. Ultimately they ended up using force to disband Irgun and Lehi.
I don’t think the unambiguous acts of terrorism that were perpetrated by Jewish extremist groups achieved anything of value. I also don’t see the situations as particularly comparable, except that Hezbollah’s strategy against Israel has likewise achieved nothing of value. Of course they need to hide among civilians to have any chance of survival, but then no one should be shocked that this strategy results in civilian collateral casualties.

Haganah did carry out terror attacks, killing 24 civilians at the Semiramis Hotel bombing, supported the Deir Yassin massacre, directly committed the Tantura massacre. Irgun entered the King David hotel posed as Arabs, sneaked the bombs in milk bottles and their warning to the hotel was made by a 16 year old girl's phone call. Of the 91 people that died only 13 were serving active military personnel. If any Jewish organization condemned the attack it was because of the international reaction as it's been the case with any Israeli condemnation to date. Most importantly, what you're omitting from your "analysis" that Irgun too, being a predecessor of today's Likud party, was absorbed into the Israeli army. Lehi too followed a similar path into the Israeli army.

The Mossad headquarters and the IDF administrative headquarters are in urban areas the same as the CIA headquarters and Pentagon are in urban areas in the US, and I suspect most other analogous headquarters in most countries. These all can be considered legitimate military targets, but they weren’t built where they are for the purpose of having human shields. They were built well outside of cities that subsequently expanded around them. Since most of Israel’s enemies deliberately target civilians, the point seems kind of moot.
The pager operation caused considerably less collateral casualties than targeted drone attacks (which the US uses in such circumstances) or any other means of taking out that much of the enemy command structure that I can think of. Legitimate targets are legitimate targets regardless of where they are. The civilian casualties must not be disproportionate to the expected military advantage, but in this case, the military advantage was massive and the relative civilian casualties were extremely light.

Any look at Google Earth web for locations of Israeli army HQ in Tel Aviv and Pentagon near Washington D.C. will spot the glaring difference. Same with CIA headquarters in Langley. Are you saying Israel doesn't have the resources to move the the Israeli army camp in the middle of Tel Aviv to outside of city limits? Israel is the party in this conflict that has all the resources, whether in land, money, or technology, to steer away from civilians. Tel Hashomer military base next to Sheba Medical Center is an other example. We don't know the extent of Hamas using civilian structures to hide its military but we know how many of Israeli claims regarding that turned out to be false to the level of grave embarrassment for Israel.

In reality, it is the Israeli army that has been documented to use human shields, whether it is by holding a Palestinian as a rifle holder to the point of using Palestinian children as human shields or strapping of Palestinian man on the hood of an Israeli jeep. The Israeli camp ignores all of these cases. They try to dance around the top Israeli military target being in the middle of Tel Aviv. Then they shout out about Hamas being among civilians in Gaza which is one of the densely populated areas in the world. Meanwhile, Israel chose not to strike Hamas doing drills that included assaulting Israeli towns, tanks and border fence, out in the open close to the border for years.

A target may be legitimate but the strike may not be legitimate based on where it is conducted. Israel is more than capable of making precision strikes that minimize civilian involvement. Such was the case with the strike on Saleh al-Arouri. You don't even know the extent of civilian damage in the case of exploding pagers. Lovely how you also try to brush away Israel's terror attack being a violation of international law by calling anyone who holds a different opinion than yours as hypocrites. Such a desperate comment likely stems from the lack of merit defending Israel on this has.

Destroying the Israeli army headquarters presents a massive military advantage. Are you saying that nuking Tel Aviv to take out the military complex there, along with all the tunnels and bunkers that likely exist under it, is a legitimate action? If you're gonna invoke proportionality please tell us how many civilians would it be worth to take out the top military base in the middle of Tel Aviv?

[mishkin]

Maybe they devastated Gaza to build the new Mossad offices there.

[sumskilz]

Haganah did carry out terror attacks, killing 24 civilians at the Semiramis Hotel bombing, supported the Deir Yassin massacre, directly committed the Tantura massacre.

The Semiramis Hotel was mistakenly believed to be an Arab headquarters. The Deir Yassin massacre was not supported by the Haganah. The Haganah supported the military operation against Deir Yassin, but not the killing of prisoners. They did however try to deny that they were involved at all after the war crimes became public. The Tantura massacre is an alleged war crime committed by a unit in the Haganah. If it happened, it was a war crime rather than a matter of policy on the Haganah’s part, which is not really comparable to organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah whose primary modus operandi is the indiscriminate targeting of civilians. If terrorism is defined by such examples, then the militaries of nearly every nation have engaged in terrorism. This muddying of the waters is a typical tactic of apologists for Islamist terrorism.

Destroying the Israeli army headquarters presents a massive military advantage. Are you saying that nuking Tel Aviv to take out the military complex there, along with all the tunnels and bunkers that likely exist under it, is a legitimate action? If you're gonna invoke proportionality please tell us how many civilians would it be worth to take out the top military base in the middle of Tel Aviv?

Nah, I think the absurdity of your argument stands well enough on its own.

That said, Iran appears to have targeted the IDF administrative headquarters in Tel Aviv last night. I wouldn’t label that a war crime or a terror attack. Iran prefers to try to keep its hands clean by using its proxies to indiscriminately target Israeli civilians. Nevertheless, an attack is an attack, so I expect there will be a response that goes beyond the rather mild demonstration of capabilities that occurred last time.

EDIT: The Iranian missile that hit near the Ayalon Mall in Ramat Gan could have been aimed at the Shin Bet headquarters, but if so, it was about 3km off.

[Papay]

Maybe they devastated Gaza to build the new Mossad offices there.

No the plan is to annex northern Gaza and make a casino or something similar. So they continue shelling civilians and depopulating Gaza. The plan is exterminating the majority and letting a minority settle in south Gaza. The Israeli extermination machine has probably slaughtered already hundreds of thousands of civilians. And noone talks in the west. This kind of fascism is dangerous for all the world

[sumskilz]

Israel having military and intelligence assets in or near densely populated areas was a disadvantage during last night’s attack, which Iran seems to have knowingly exploited:

Iran likely intended to inflict significant damage on Israel by oversaturating Israeli air defenses, particularly in central Israel. Iran launched approximately 180 ballistic missiles targeting Israel on October 1, compared to the approximately 120 ballistic missiles it fired at Israel in April 2024.[22] The April attack focused on Israeli positions in northern and southern Israel, with several ballistic missiles striking Nevatim Airbase.[23] This attack focused on at least three possible targets between Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, and Herzliya, north of Tel Aviv. Rehovot and Tel Aviv are 29km apart. Some portion of the strike package focused on Nevatim and Hatzerim Airbases in southern Israel, but a large number of missiles targeted a very small geographic area in densely populated central Israel. All missiles in this area would presumably need to be intercepted because the IDF will only intercept missiles that fall in populated areas. This is not the case in Nevatim and Hatzerim, which are surrounded by relatively unpopulated deserts. The increase in ballistic missiles may have been designed to overwhelm the Israeli Arrow ballistic missile defense system by saturating it with large numbers of systems in relatively small and densely populated areas. The large quantity of ballistic missiles also represents a significant Iranian investment that Iran is unlikely to willingly forfeit in an attack for show.

[PointOfViewGun]

The Semiramis Hotel was mistakenly believed to be an Arab headquarters. The Deir Yassin massacre was not supported by the Haganah. The Haganah supported the military operation against Deir Yassin, but not the killing of prisoners. They did however try to deny that they were involved at all after the war crimes became public. The Tantura massacre is an alleged war crime committed by a unit in the Haganah. If it happened, it was a war crime rather than a matter of policy on the Haganah’s part, which is not really comparable to organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah whose primary modus operandi is the indiscriminate targeting of civilians. If terrorism is defined by such examples, then the militaries of nearly every nation have engaged in terrorism. This muddying of the waters is a typical tactic of apologists for Islamist terrorism.

Much of that either doesn't matter or simply false. It seems to be an Israeli pastime to "mistakenly" think that a location they blow up is some kind of diabolical HQ of devildom. That Haganah chose to distance itself from the Deir Yassin massacre after international reaction and in an attempt to implicate other Jewish groups it opposed politically while covering up its own involvement doesn't really change the facts of the matter. Haganah's involvement in al-Khisas, Balad al-Shaykh and Sa'sa' massacres shows how they're not the misunderstood angels you try to make them to be. The fact of the matter is that major Jewish groups resorted to terror or war crimes again and again to eradicate or subjugate the Arab population of the land that their state wanted to occupy. You go into great effort to underplay Jewish actions while trying to blow Palestinian actions out of proportion, often based on falsehoods, to present a narrative of incomparable parties of the conflict. They fall flat in the face of simple facts.

Nah, I think the absurdity of your argument stands well enough on its own.
That said, Iran appears to have targeted the IDF administrative headquarters in Tel Aviv last night. I wouldn’t label that a war crime or a terror attack. Iran prefers to try to keep its hands clean by using its proxies to indiscriminately target Israeli civilians. Nevertheless, an attack is an attack, so I expect there will be a response that goes beyond the rather mild demonstration of capabilities that occurred last time.
EDIT: The Iranian missile that hit near the Ayalon Mall in Ramat Gan could have been aimed at the Shin Bet headquarters, but if so, it was about 3km off.

What's absurd about trying to understand your criteria of proportionality? Israel has no problem with levelling entire neighbourhoods to target Hamas in Gaza or entire apartment blocks to target Hezbollah. Taking out the Matcal tower, along with the army camp around it and the bunkers that likely exist underneath, would require substantial firepower. You invoked the argument of proportionality when it comes to civilian casualties.